Why do so many people think that OSR = low level only? The average TSR AD&D module is a LV 6 to 9.5 adventure, according to Wikipedia.

[Cryomancer]

I'm just curious about so many people who like to dictate how other groups play OSR games. I see so many people wanting to limit the level of other groups. Don't get me wrong, if you have been having fun playing for years at LV 1~3, have fun. What I don't like is when people try to dictate how other people play the game, as, for example, if a group started to run Dragon's Crown for Dark Sun AD&D, that group is committing the ultimate heresy. Most original TSR modules don't start at LV 1 or 3.


To make my point clear, I did a quick Python script (https://pastebin.com/JdSAvLyE) to calculate the average D&D level. Picking the low-level range, high-level range, and overall average. The output?

Overall Average Low Level: 6.00
Overall Average High Level: 9.50
Average Level: 7.75

So yes, as you can see, the creators of D&D were not big fans of only low-level gameplay. But to be honest, there are way more low-level modules than high-level (12+) modules. My point is just that if a group decides to play a LV 6-9/10 adventure, that group is not "cheating" or committing a heresy like some OSR fans portrait. That person is just playing in the same level range as the average D&D adventure. And if a group wants to start on LV 1 or LV 30, that is their decision. Stop trying to dictate how other people have fun.

PS: Before someone accuses me of "autism" for this quick script, it only took a couple of minutes to write and test it.

 

[Sacibengala]

People think OSR is anything these days. Don't ever go to Reddit.
EDIT: Did you checked out NAP3? https://princeofnothing.itch.io/no-artpunk-iii It's highlevel, it's free.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

A segment of those involved with the "Old School Renaissance" do not look to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for inspiration but rather to original D&D, which had PCs reach name level at 9th level for fighting-men, 11th level for magic-users, and 8th level for clerics; although human PCs could continue to advance indefinitely, there were not, for example, spell levels past 6th for magic-users and 5th for clerics, and generally lacked other support for higher levels. Although these people seem to be ignoring even Supplement I: Greyhawk, which did establish spells levels up to 9th for magic-users and 6th for clerics, among other additions for higher-level characters.

It should be noted that Gary Gygax himself had a fondness for adventures in the range of levels 8-12, with Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, the culmination of the first series of adventures, having a stated level range of 10 to 14; the only module written by Gygax with a higher level range is WG6 Isle of the Ape, where the pre-generated player-characters have an average level of 16.5. Similarly, module S4 The Lost Cavern of Tsojcanth is a bit lower level than was usual for Gygax at levels 6 to 8; however, the two low-level exceptions by Gygax were 1980's B2 The Keep on the Borderlands, which was subsequently included in the 1981 B/X D&D Basic Set as the introductory adventure module, and 1985's supermodule T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil (the first part of which was published in 1979 as T1 The Village of Hommlet), both of which were extraordinarily popular and regarded as classic beginning adventures.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. In OG D&D, casters could't get spells above 6th tier, however many people by some unknown reason assumes that the cap was 3th tier...

 

[v1rus]

A segment of those involved with the "Old School Renaissance" do not look to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for inspiration but rather to original D&D...

Uhm, bit of a thread derailment, I know, but I've been wondering something, and saw you here - so why not, you are my favorite source of old-school rpg knowledge. Is Tunnels & Trolls just a stupid OD&D derivate, or does it have more to itself?

 

[v1rus]

People think OSR is anything these days. Don't ever go to Reddit.

Just because I've been reading up a lot of Prince these days, and OSR is soooo enthralling to me...

What exactly would you say people often call OSR, but it really isnt?

And on the main topic - its weird. Theres lots of prejudice against high level adventures, CMI part of BECMI especially. Mind you, I have no experience with it, i just know audiences/reviewers call C (that is, CM) part mostly unplayable, and MI (M/IM) completely unplayable, but it also seems most people havent actually played them, at all.

The already mentioned Prince also shared these sentiments, and mostly frowned upon the CM modules he reviewed. He did change his mind lately, which is why IIRC he wanted NAP#3 to feature more high level adventures. For the life of me, cant remember what changed his mind.

 

[Sacibengala]

What exactly would you say people often call OSR, but it really isnt?

System light, with a lot of modern aesthetics and layout, but without the basic mechanics to be called DnD. Like Cairn. But if you read PoN blog you already know that.

 

[Sacibengala]

A segment of those involved with the "Old School Renaissance" do not look to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for inspiration but rather to original D&D

Actually the norm these days are just to ripoff B/X and strip even more rules off it. And B/X is very lethal, even more so than the ODnD and ADnD, and the characters generally don't live beyond levels 1-3. So they don't need hexcrawl rules, domain rules and etc. People are using the term "mudcore" to call people that love lethality and no actual gain from the game whatsoever.

 

[v1rus]

What exactly would you say people often call OSR, but it really isnt?

System light, with a lot of modern aesthetics and layout, but without the basic mechanics to be called DnD. Like Cairn. But if you read PoN blog you already know that.

Yeah, I'm just always interested in different perspectives, and thought you'd perhaps have one. Ty.

 

[Mortmal]

They think of it as low levels because they never went past that. It's full of one-shots and level 1 sessions run by mediocre DMs online. You need a permanent group for a good OSR campaign, as finding the right people is essential.

 

[Mortmal]

A segment of those involved with the "Old School Renaissance" do not look to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for inspiration but rather to original D&D

Actually the norm these days are just to ripoff B/X and strip even more rules off it. And B/X is very lethal, even more so than the ODnD and ADnD, and the characters generally don't live beyond levels 1-3. So they don't need hexcrawl rules, domain rules and etc. People are using the term "mudcore" to call people that love lethality and no actual gain from the game whatsoever.

It's lethal, but people don't play it properly. They forget about the surprise round and morale checks. If the party stealthily approaches an encounter and swiftly takes out some enemies, the other half may roll their morale, and the fight could already be over—or you might avoid the fight entirely and award milestones or XP for treasure. You can also think outside the box. Are traps lethal? Why not buy some orphans from the local town and send them ahead to scout and trigger traps!

 

[NecroLord]

Casters ruin everything for everyone...
Always high level D&D spiralled out of control and turned into a game of rocket tag, or whoever got to act first in the combat round was the one who won.
Early-mid level D&D is the best, that is where you know your adventure will be rewarding, there is risk and danger, but the treasures and rewards are many.
High level D&D becomes generic High Fantasy with magic items and powerful spells flying around everywhere.

 

[Cryomancer]

Casters ruin everything for everyone...
Always high level D&D spiralled out of control and turned into a game of rocket tag, or whoever got to act first in the combat round was the one who won.

Depends on the DM, on the setting and many other variables.

A high level caster in Dark Sun AD&D, would't ruin everything for everyone, as he :

• Need to disguise his spells as psionics as casters are hated there, so no flashy spells like fireball
• A single spell scroll is incredible rare and contrary to 3.5e, casters can't learn spells by leveling up, they need to find scrolls, a lv 13 preserver would be very lucky to have ONE tier 5/6 spell in his spellbook.
• Reagents for spells also incredible rare
• Preparing spells and gathering energy to prepare spells is not easy. Some classes like Shadow Wizards can die while preparing spells
• (...)

There are settings more devoided of magic in gear and spells if you want a more "gritty" experience. And IMO in most D&D settings, clerics > mages. Mainly in Dark Sun and Ravenloft.

They forget about the surprise round and morale checks. If the party stealthily approaches an encounter and swiftly takes out some enemies, the other half may roll their morale, and the fight could already be over

Yes, they need to be much more cautious when playing this old school games.

 

[NecroLord]

Casters ruin everything for everyone...
Always high level D&D spiralled out of control and turned into a game of rocket tag, or whoever got to act first in the combat round was the one who won.

Depends on the DM, on the setting and many other variables.

A high level caster in Dark Sun AD&D, would't ruin everything for everyone, as he :

• Need to disguise his spells as psionics as casters are hated there, so no flashy spells like fireball
• A single spell scroll is incredible rare and contrary to 3.5e, casters can't learn spells by leveling up, they need to find scrolls, a lv 13 preserver would be very lucky to have ONE tier 5/6 spell in his spellbook.
• Reagents for spells also incredible rare
• Preparing spells and gathering energy to prepare spells is not easy. Some classes like Shadow Wizards can die while preparing spells
• (...)

There are settings more devoided of magic in gear and spells if you want a more "gritty" experience. And IMO in most D&D settings, clerics > mages. Mainly in Dark Sun and Ravenloft.

They forget about the surprise round and morale checks. If the party stealthily approaches an encounter and swiftly takes out some enemies, the other half may roll their morale, and the fight could already be over

Yes, they need to be much more cautious when playing this old school games.

Yeah, Dark Sun is an exception, since it is a low magic setting.

 

[Mortmal]

Casters ruin everything for everyone...
Always high level D&D spiralled out of control and turned into a game of rocket tag, or whoever got to act first in the combat round was the one who won.

Depends on the DM, on the setting and many other variables.

A high level caster in Dark Sun AD&D, would't ruin everything for everyone, as he :

• Need to disguise his spells as psionics as casters are hated there, so no flashy spells like fireball
• A single spell scroll is incredible rare and contrary to 3.5e, casters can't learn spells by leveling up, they need to find scrolls, a lv 13 preserver would be very lucky to have ONE tier 5/6 spell in his spellbook.
• Reagents for spells also incredible rare
• Preparing spells and gathering energy to prepare spells is not easy. Some classes like Shadow Wizards can die while preparing spells
• (...)

There are settings more devoided of magic in gear and spells if you want a more "gritty" experience. And IMO in most D&D settings, clerics > mages. Mainly in Dark Sun and Ravenloft.

They forget about the surprise round and morale checks. If the party stealthily approaches an encounter and swiftly takes out some enemies, the other half may roll their morale, and the fight could already be over

Yes, they need to be much more cautious when playing this old school games.

It's not just about being cautious; it's a whole different mindset. It's also about not focusing so much on your character sheet and numbers—you can interact with the environment, and you can flee too. These ideas don't sink in anymore because we've been conditioned by mainstream products that offer instant gratification.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Uhm, bit of a thread derailment, I know, but I've been wondering something, and saw you here - so why not, you are my favorite source of old-school rpg knowledge. Is Tunnels & Trolls just a stupid OD&D derivate, or does it have more to itself?

Tunnels & Trolls was developed by Ken St. Andre after he purchased the original Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks but couldn't figure out how to play it. It appears to have a certain fanbase but is generally considered silly by D&D/AD&D players; not familiar with it myself.

 

[Cryomancer]

About Tunnels & Trolls, it was butchered like D&D? How is different than D&D? It was butchered by a WoTC style company?

 

[Reinhardt]

dress wearers are gay

 

[Mortmal]

About Tunnels & Trolls, it was butchered like D&D? How is different than D&D? It was butchered by a WoTC style company?

No, it's still very classic and considered a first-wave style of RPG, with barely anything beyond dungeon delving. The fact is, there are so many systems, and the market is oversaturated, so there are simply very few people playing it.
https://rebellionunplugged.com/tunnelsandtrolls/ up to you to detect if there's wokeness implied, but it doesnt seems so at least till 2015 according covers:

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yep. In OG D&D, casters could't get spells above 6th tier, however many people by some unknown reason assumes that the cap was 3th tier...

Are you sure they're talking about spell levels and not character levels? BECMI D&D could be pretty lethal and the basic set only had progression to level 3.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

A group deciding to be Holmes Basic D&D purists would be limited to 3 character levels, without any rulebooks other than the single 48-page one from 1977, but that simply raises the question of why anyone would restrict oneself in such a way.

 

[mediocrepoet]

A group deciding to be Holmes Basic D&D purists would be limited to 3 character levels, without any rulebooks other than the single 48-page one from 1977, but that simply raises the question of why anyone would restrict oneself in such a way.

Depends who Cryomancer is talking to. Since he figures many say you're restricted to level 3, which strikes me as bizarre, it's the only conclusion that made much sense to me. Other than that many "OSR Purists" are simply an incredibly dorky strain of hipster, that is.

 

[Cryomancer]

I saw people trying to organize groups to play some AD&D modules and there was always someone "reee, is not a lv 1~3 campaign, I wanna dictate how your group should play".

 

[mediocrepoet]

I think my favourite level range is around 5-9 for AD&D, preferably after having started at level 1.

Characters are becoming reasonably powerful at level 5, with level 3 spells coming online as well and they're pretty great around level 7. By level 9, they're becoming very powerful and if you go much higher, some of the weird ways the world can be broken by the system / implications of magic start to become apparent and it gets far too "epic" for my tastes.

 

[Cryomancer]

5~9 is pretty close to the average module level. About mages after lv 9, in AD&D, mages only get 6th tier spells at lv 12, not 11(3.5e), they are the class with slowest leveling and takes an eternity to level up after this point. For a mage going to lv 11 to 12 takes the same amount of XP than from going to lv 1 to 11. Not mentioning, being a lv 12 don't automatically give you a long list of tier 6 spells to chose in leveling up, you must find/buy a scroll and roll to learn from it. So yes, very few people even "memorized" a 6th tier spell without starting a higher level adventure/module or speedrunning with a very generous DM.