Why are RPG gamers more tolerant with bullshit mechanics?

[Cryomancer]

EDIT : PLEASE. READ THE SECOND PARAGRAPH. This is not a topic only about cooldowns.


The new Contra rogue corps had the """"genial"""" idea of implementing cooldowns of firearms and everyone is hating it. Mocking it. Saying that is a artificial limitation that makes no sense only to force the player to use sub optimal weapons and grind more upgrading two weapons. This while 90%+ of modern RPG's uses this mechanic for everything. Jumped? Wait 4 turns or 30 seconds to jump again. Toss a grenade? Wait 5 turns or 60 seconds... On Battlefield franchise, everyone complains about grenade spam in CQB maps but nobody wanna cooldown to fix it.

Other example is the resistances/immunities. Nobody in War Thunder complains that a .303 British machine gun can't pierce a heavy tank and that even a 14.5x114mm armor piercing round(strongest "rifle" caliber round) can only pierce the top armor of a Tiger tank(45mm penetration). That large cannons, at least a 30mm and bombs are the unique way to reliable deal with heavily armored tanks; But in RPG's, we see people complaining because a sword can't solve every problem in the world. From a insect swarm to a rock golem.

Swarms of small creatures like rats, for instance, can't be effectively fought with a sword and shield. Sometimes Kingmaker warns you, but other times it simply expects you to know how to handle the problem. Rust monsters, skeletons, ghosts, and so on all have specific tools that you need to understand and be able to use with relative ease. That's made easier by having a diverse party, but then you have to take far more time aside to learn the ins and outs of your band of characters than a traditional tabletop player. source b https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/pathfinder-kingmaker-review-the-classics/1900-6417006/

His complaint that you need to know the pathfinder rules bugs me too. Why with sports game, nobody criticize FIFA because "i need to understand soccer rules"? The proposal of Pathfinder Kingmaker is to be a game for pathfinder and D&D 3.5e fans. Not to be another "press A for awesome" game. And Pathfinder Kingmaker has a difficulty called "story mode", for those who wanna a "press A for awesome" game.

Look to fantasy creatures. Twilight is mocked hard by "fairy vampires" that sparkles in sun. How many modern games allow vampires to be exposed to sun like Elder Scroll Online and nobody cares? Talking about novels, imagine the mechanics presents in the 666*10²³ wow clones in a novel or in a movie;

The master necromancer was reunited with his novice students to teach the basic of necromancy in the Rathma necropolis. He let the students ask first to stimulate the curiosity and one of his students asked him
- "master - How did you become so powerful"
And the master answered
- "First i found this big and sharp axe. With this big and sharp axe, i dimaterialize it and suck more blood from the skeleton king. After i defeated the skeleton king, i found this epic boot who bosts my IQ by 651684186461 points and let me command my skeleton army faster. So instead of only giving one order per 20 seconds, now i can give one order per 19 seconds."
- "but master, how did siphon blood worked in a creature without blood? And if you don't use the weapon in the attack, why you need a weapon?" a student asked.
- "nonsense. Everyone in this world has exactly the same body, strength, intelligence and the unique way to become more or less intelectual is by finding boots that increase this things."
- "but i have heard that Tristam(d1) was saved by a sorcerer using only cursed gear"
- "non sense. The rules of magic changed by no reason. In the past, magicians become better at casting bone spirit by reading tomes and having enought magical energy to understand and absorb the tome's magic. Now everyone learns everything. Every necromancer can animate 7 skeleton and they are strong as your axe. So never be disarmed"
- "But why did the magic changed so much?"
- "i don't know, now lets stop this pointless lesson and lets go find bigger and sharper axes for you, so you can suck more blood from skeletons and have stronger minion armies"

A novel written to have the same logic of wow clone mmorpg's and diablo 3 would be a comedy/meme material. Why people accept this BS with """RPG's"""? I could write the same BS of a master monk teaching his novices.

TL;DR - Nobody accept things presents on most modern RPG's in other game genres and other entertainment medias.

 

[Saravan]

Background: He made a post on Larian forums raging about the possibility of cooldowns in BG3 and he didn't get the responses he had hoped.

Pro-tip, if you are looking for an echo-chamber go cry about this on BG reddit.

 

[Butter]

Cooldowns suck in RPGs too. AP costs and Vancian restrictions are much better.

 

[Cryomancer]

Background: He made a post on Larian forums raging about the possibility of cooldowns in BG3 and he didn't get the responses he had hoped.

Wrong. Cooldowns are only one of complains that i an making in this thread.

And i got the answers that i wanna. Probably this BS will not be on BG3;

Cooldowns suck in RPGs too. AP costs and Vancian restrictions are much better.

Well said.

 

[DraQ]

You have come to realize that decline did not come to cRPGs.
cRPGs are the decline that comes to other genres.

(And cooldowns are utter shit, the only reason I tolerate them in Larian's games is that they stand strong enough to not get outright killed by such diarrhoea IV, but help them it does not.)

 

[Cryomancer]

You have come to realize that decline did not come to cRPGs.
cRPGs are the decline that comes to other genres.

I believe that the CRPG declined mostly by mmo and console market and now the decline is coming to other genres...

PS : I din't criticized only CD's. Criticized the immunity/resistance system on most modern games, everything scaling with weapon, etc.

 

[DalekFlay]

A big part of RPGs is designing your character and improving your character to overcome limitations. If you could just spam awesome spells all the time at level 1, there wouldn't be that feeling of progression you get when you can use other good spells, use spells more often, etc. Pretty easy to understand, with cooldowns or daily limits or whatever else.

If you really want to compare this to something in a completely different genre like Doom, think about how ammo is much more rare for high level weapons, so you have to decide when and how to use them. If you got infinite BFG ammo the whole game, think of how boring that would be. So no, RPGs are not the only genre that builds limits and restrictions into their design.

 

[Cryomancer]

If you really want to compare this to something in a completely different genre like Doom, think about how ammo is much more rare for high level weapons, so you have to decide when and how to use them. If you got infinite BFG ammo the whole game, think of how boring that would be. So no, RPGs are not the only genre that builds limits and restrictions into their design.

Again. I din't mentioned only cooldowns. I even edited and asked for people to read the second paragraph. Nobody is seeing that i an criticizing a lot of things...

But having a .50 BMG round more expnsive and rare than a 556 round makes sense. HAving unlimited .50 BMG ammo but only able to fire one round per X seconds makes no sense.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

Mmm there's sort of a cultural obsession with "epicness" right now in all forms of entertainment. We have like a romantic-era hangover or something, most people don't give a shit about the 'mundane' (aka day to day things, things that aren't super flashy, low level DND etc..) but want to experience 'epicness' in an accessible way

So you end up with things like superhero movies, larian games, 'talent' series tv shows, MMOs, eg which display some facade of "epicness" without acknowledging the prerequisite path to it.

 

[DalekFlay]

But having a .50 BMG round more expnsive and rare than a 556 round makes sense. HAving unlimited .50 BMG ammo but only able to fire one round per X seconds makes no sense.

Can't you see they're doing effectively the same thing? In Pathfinder: Kingmaker you can only cast a spell X times per day, which is the equivalent of only being able to buy X rounds of armor-piercing ammo or whatever. It's all rooted in the same design choice, to limit the player's access to better stuff so they have to choose when to use it and feel like they're getting more powerful when they can use it more or have more alternatives.

 

[DraQ]

Protip:
There is no excuse for not having ingredient/material component system in cRPG if it would help balance spellcasting.

Protip:
If everything is epic, nothing is.

 

[Jvegi]

RPG gamers

 

[Cryomancer]

Can't you see they're doing effectively the same thing? .

Are not the same thing. Spell per day makes sense. As limited battery and ammo. CDs doesn't... And please. Read the second paragraph. I an not talking only about CD's in this thread. I an talking about resistances/immunities, everything scaling with weapon, ludonarrative dissonance, etc

 

[DalekFlay]

Are not the same thing. Spell per day makes sense. As limited battery ammo. CDs doesn't... And please. Read the second paragraph. I an not talking only about CD's in this thread. I an talking about resistances/immunities, everything scaling with weapon, ludonarrative dissonance, etc

I'm using a specific example to try and make you see that limitations to overcome or counteract are at the heart of game design, and RPG design especially, for a reason. Resistances? How about FPS enemies with armor you have to use a particular ammo type for? Enemies that are easier to kill with a shotgun versus a scope? I could go on and on... the point is, limitation makes the player adapt and overcome, which is the essence of gameplay. RPGs might have more of this than other genres because the whole point is to make your character stronger, but all games have this fundamental design idea.

 

[Cryomancer]

I'm using a specific example to try and make you see that limitations to overcome or counteract are at the heart of game design, and RPG design especially, for a reason. Resistances? How about FPS enemies with armor you have to use a particular ammo type for? Enemies that are easier to kill with a shotgun versus a scope? I could go on and on... the point is, limitation makes the player adapt and overcome, which is the essence of gameplay. RPGs might have more of this than other genres because the whole point is to make your character stronger, but all games have this fundamental design idea.

But some limitations makes sense. Other not.

And having a swarm that requires AOE spells(in a game to friendly fire) or bombs, or grenades, or torches to be dealt with is a fun thing. But for the game jounralist is bad because he wanna to solve everything with a fast swinging blade

PS : About "shotgun or scope", IRL shotguns has way far range than in games. When i visited a hunting club in Bariloche, the vendor said that a shotgun can reliable take most animals around 75m(slugs or as he calls "balote") and birds with birdshot at 200m

 

[S.torch]

A novel written to have the same logic of wow clone mmorpg's and diablo 3 would be a comedy/meme material. Why people accept this BS with """RPG's"""?

Problem gambling. WoW and such are designed like gambling games for a reason.

 

[Cryomancer]

Problem gambling. WoW and such are designed like gambling games for a reason.

Nice point. Most RPG's on the past was designed to be fictional living breathing worlds. Most modern RPG's to be bussy work and gambling...

 

[Straight elf]

So the OP loves to obsess over stupid shit.

 

[Saravan]

So the OP loves to obsess over stupid shit.

 

[Cryomancer]

Please. Next time read the second paragraph before criticizing my post. Or this is too hard to ask? "At this point I'm wondering if you even read what people say", the same applies to you. You din't even read the second paragraph. And "hur dur, he is only talking about cooldowns" - He din't mentioned any other mechanic, nor vampires who has no problems with sun, everything scaling with weapons, etc.

Ohh wait. Will be no "next time".

So the OP loves to obsess over stupid shit.

Yep. RPG games being RPG games and not slot machine simulator with a lot of BS mechanics is "stupid shit". I will ignore you too...

 

[Reality]

I think most people accept that RPGs combat mechanics are abstract and not "sim-like" - I mean the very basics of D&D rounds being 6 seoncds when you spend god knows how much time before picking your action come to mind.

Level up "immersion" can vary : fully equipment based stat gain is an extreme... but should you really instantly get a new spell mid dungeon just for killing something and getting XP ppoints. Or worse, what if you skipped assigning attributes for 4 levels and then made a charather instaneously buff after being unable to even equip armor due to low strength before?

Goldbox trainers and Wizardry only level up after returning to town to rest look good now

 

[Cryomancer]

Level up "immersion" can vary : fully equipment based stat gain is an extreme... but should you really instantly get a new spell mid dungeon just for killing something and getting XP ppoints. Or worse, what if you skipped assigning attributes for 4 levels and then made a charather instaneously buff after being unable to even equip armor due to low strength before?

Gothic 1/2 and even 3 has the best system.

Stat gain from Potions with rare components and few enchanted medallions. To learn a new spell, you need to

1. Find someone able and willing to teach you. On G1, you can learn Circle 1 magic from a Baal on swamp camp, from Saturas and Corristo
2. Spend your "learning points" to learn the magical circle
3. Purchase the rune(g1) or learn how to craft the rune(g2)
4. In g2, find the components and craft the rune.

And something similar happens to other skills; you can't just kill rats and learn how to pick pockets...

Gothic 3 has a stremalined spell system because the published forced then to release one year before it was ready BUT in order to get some spells like Ice Explosion, you need to do quests involving exploring ancient runes and helping Nefarius. once again gothic shows how sissy the fire magicians are. Water mages are trying to learn new magic type while fire mages only cry in their rebel camps the loss of rune magic.

PS : Thanks a lot for reading at least the topic or the TL;DR section. Not assuming that i an only talking about CDs.

 

[Chippy]

OP has a point. Still - what did you expect? Mass market stuff is gonna be differentiated to the lowest common denominator. Only chance we've got now is Eastern Europe. I also think an argument can be made for developers not knowing what their product is: Pathfinder Kingmaker was more of an "IE" game to me than Siege of Dragonspear was.

But that's another discussion.

 

[DraQ]

PS : Thanks a lot for reading at least the topic or the TL;DR section. Not assuming that i an only talking about CDs.

It's entirely your fault for using such stark example.

 

[Cryomancer]

It's entirely your fault for using such stark example.

Yep. I should mentioned cooldowns later in the text. I've should started with the "novel written by wow/d3 logic"....