Incline What if flying was unlimited in open worlds from the start?

[Not.AI]

The Good Old RPG Formula don't sell no more.

The People sick and tired of walking along the ground and kicking rats and squirrels and small komodo dragons. They annoying. Some people just wanna skip all that.

As recent experience shows.

Jetpacks and open world from the very start lets The People skip any and all shit they don't like.

But not if they run out of fuel in 3 seconds! Fully upgraded gives you 30 seconds? Not enough.

The People don't wanna bunny hop better. The People wanna fly. They wanna keep flying, never set foot on the ground again if they don't feel like it.

I think that's why jetpack-chan ain't selling better.

It's over.

The People over the years have kicked all the rats and collected all the apples and garlic bread. RPGs with walking around are stale. The need for it has been satisfied. Too long The People have been forced to walk on their feet in games. What for? It's realistic? So what? Games aren't real. They're entertainment. Anything is possible.

If that doesn't convince you, here's a different argument:
1. Game already have shit stories.
2. They might as well have shit physics.

We already have games with flying cars playing football and they SELL.

So what if The People had a real RPG, all the mechanics, but absolutely no limits on flying at all. Upgrades only affect things like speed and weight the inventory can hold.

Nothing, no fuel needed, no energy barriers. (Dragon Knights don't smack their heads into invisible walls.)

Next Game Please or what?

 

[Norfleet]

NEVER running out of fuel is too popamole. A realistic jetpack would offer you maybe about 10-15 minutes of flight, that should be enough.

 

[lukaszek]

if morrowind got glass armor set available from start, do you rush to obtain it?

 

[distant]

I played Breath of the Wild last year and one thing that game did well was the traversal, hang-glider whenever possible, using your horse, sliding down slopes on your shield. The little I've played of Death Stranding also had very cool traversal mechanics that actually made me forget that I was essentially doing a bunch of fetch quests. So the real answer is make this shit engaging.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Back in MY DAY we had RPGs where you'd start walking around, then later they'd give ya a boat and eventually some kind of flying vessel, and lastly some kind of teleportation magic. Then some lazy fucks invented fast travel and now we have horseshit for videogames

 

[Humbaba]

Give the player a means to fly after a certain point where enough of the world has been explored and backtracking would be too much of a hassle without it. This isn't new, many games have done this.

 

[JarlFrank]

Back in MY DAY we had RPGs where you'd start walking around, then later they'd give ya a boat and eventually some kind of flying vessel, and lastly some kind of teleportation magic. Then some lazy fucks invented fast travel and now we have horseshit for videogames

Yeah it's funny how some staples of 1980s RPG design have pretty much vanished, even though they were super cool.

Overall I think most 80s RPGs, especially the early Ultimas that pioneered this, are obsolete. No seriously, early Ultimas are extremely simplistic in their mechanics, the series only becomes interesting around Ultima 4.

But things like getting a boat, and even a spaceship later on (if you wanna combine fantasy and sci-fi), were extremely cool but nobody does that kind of thing anymore. Being able to buy a boat in an open world RPG means you unlock an entire new way of traversing the landscape, and what used to be a barrier (long stretches of deep sea you can't hope to swim through) suddenly turn into new frontiers that can be explored.

Might and Magic's navigation skills were similar. Have your party learn climbing so you can cross mountain tiles. Have them learn swimming to cross water tiles.

There's no reason modern open world RPGs can't do this.
Let's take a look at Conan Exiles, a game where I really enjoy walking around and exploring everything. It has a couple of lakes and rivers to swim and dive in, and it has a climbing system that lets you ascend any vertical surface.
What if swimming and climbing were locked behind a skill you have to learn? That means you'd discover barriers early on (a wide river you have to swim through, a tall mountain with a ruin on top but no way up), and as you play you unlock the ability to cross those barriers by learning new skills (swimming, climbing) or purchasing new vehicles (a boat), or acquiring new spells (levitation).

That's why I have to hard disagree with OP. An ability like flight shouldn't be unlimited and available for the start. It's a lot more fun and rewarding to earn it during gameplay. Like Morrowind's levitation spell which you first need to purchase, and for which you first need to skill up your alteration magic. It becomes a lot more satisfying to use if it's earned.

 

[LESS T_T]

Unlimited flying in a game where most interesting things and obstacles are on the lands? No.

A game where flying is the main way of exploration and being in air is interesting? Yes, I'm interested. Probably set in something like sky islands.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The idea is intuitive for futuristic settings, but there are several things that have to be considered:

• AI must be able to function/respond to flight.
  • Creature and encounter design are going to be dominated by the specter of Z-Axis combat. The quality of the outcome is questionable.
• Great care will need to be taken not to break the plot.
• It encourages level scaling
• If you're going to render most of your world obsolete, then why make an open world?

Blackshirt and Jarlfrank are correct in that it's better to have that kind of mobility come in later in game as an earned capability.

 

[JarlFrank]

• Great care will need to be taken not to break the plot.

Fuck this shit. This is why the developers of Thief 4 nerfed rope arrows to only be usable in specific spots, when in previous Thief games they would stick in ANY wooden surface. "B-but the players might be able to break muh plot if they are given too much freedom!!"

If it's an open world game, the player should be able to traverse it openly, unrestricted by artificial borders. No plot gating.
Non-artificial borders like difficulty spikes are fine though.

If your open world game's plot can be broken by the player visiting locations too early, then you should re-write the plot as it doesn't fit into an open world game.

 

[deuxhero]

The obvious solution to flying in an open world is to make the obstacles either underground, and/or include AA defenses. Morrowind has flying limited only by your character's power, and you can get a full in-game day of flight relatively easily, but put most of its content indoors to avoid this being an issue. In-fact, the main outdoor content I can think of in MW are Umbra, some temple quests that don't involve combat or challenging movement, that no good deed goes unpunished quest, escort missions flight doesn't help because your escortee is landbound, and some very minor bandit quests (most/all which have ranged attacks).

 

[Lt Broccoli]

Flying in RPGs? If we are talking about a futuristic/high technology setting, then I don't see why not, but within the bounds of common sense. That said, limitations and a player learning to overcome them is what makes for engaged gameplay. Being 'given' all the perks upfront removes a key tool to keep a player engaged. Also if the player can fly, then there should be a lot of disincentives to keep alight indefinitely. Multiple threats of kinds that make flight a calculated risk/benefit analysis. (ie. flying enemies with exceptional eyesight, snipers watching the skies, high winds/rain/lightning, drones, traps, you name it.)

 

[anvi]

I loved flying around on griffons or whatever in EQ, WoW, Vanguard. The latter was the best by far and was designed for it from the start. The world was huge and dangerous so flying a pegasus or whatever is mostly balanced. It's gotta be designed for it from the start though. Being a Bard in those games was great for flying.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

• Great care will need to be taken not to break the plot.

Fuck this shit. This is why the developers of Thief 4 nerfed rope arrows to only be usable in specific spots, when in previous Thief games they would stick in ANY wooden surface. "B-but the players might be able to break muh plot if they are given too much freedom!!"

If it's an open world game, the player should be able to traverse it openly, unrestricted by artificial borders. No plot gating.
Non-artificial borders like difficulty spikes are fine though.

If your open world game's plot can be broken by the player visiting locations too early, then you should re-write the plot as it doesn't fit into an open world game.

Well, I suppose it doesn't have to be. Daggerfall, Fallout, Arcanum, and Deadfire are some examples where you can basically go everywhere from the moment you start. I suppose unfettered mobility/transportation could have also worked in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, but that kind of access would just need to be a consideration when creating NPCs to avoid plot holes or broken sequences.

 

[Norfleet]

The obvious solution to flying in an open world is to make the obstacles either underground, and/or include AA defenses.

Flying is actually remarkably hazardous in combat. If you're flying, you have basically no cover and are completely exposed, while your ability to make direction changes is considerably more limited. Also, it would be difficult to fight: You'd need at least one hand to operate the jetpack control, and one to look like a superhero while flying, although a good rig might be able to combine these two functions, so that the hand you're using to look like a superhero also controls the jetpack.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Let's take a look at Conan Exiles, a game where I really enjoy walking around and exploring everything. It has a couple of lakes and rivers to swim and dive in, and it has a climbing system that lets you ascend any vertical surface.
What if swimming and climbing were locked behind a skill you have to learn? That means you'd discover barriers early on (a wide river you have to swim through, a tall mountain with a ruin on top but no way up), and as you play you unlock the ability to cross those barriers by learning new skills (swimming, climbing) or purchasing new vehicles (a boat), or acquiring new spells (levitation).

Don't care about flying outside of sci-fi settings but this is a great point about rivers and boats. Traversable waterways are such a rarity in videogames. Conan never quite got there, but it was a step in the right direction by actually having deep water channels. Now we just need some ambitious devs to make a game with rapids, eddies, tides etc. Throw in spots with random math that make boat travel down rapids hazardous. Percentages to lose control briefly and a chance to capsize losing your gear. Tie it to a skill that lowers that chance. Log/boulder spotting tied to awareness. No fast travel, so a clear incentive to use rivers to speed travel.

 

[Bah]

The Good Old RPG Formula don't sell no more.

The People sick and tired of walking along the ground and kicking rats and squirrels and small komodo dragons. They annoying. Some people just wanna skip all that.

As recent experience shows.

Jetpacks and open world from the very start lets The People skip any and all shit they don't like.

But not if they run out of fuel in 3 seconds! Fully upgraded gives you 30 seconds? Not enough.

The People don't wanna bunny hop better. The People wanna fly. They wanna keep flying, never set foot on the ground again if they don't feel like it.

I think that's why jetpack-chan ain't selling better.

It's over.

The People over the years have kicked all the rats and collected all the apples and garlic bread. RPGs with walking around are stale. The need for it has been satisfied. Too long The People have been forced to walk on their feet in games. What for? It's realistic? So what? Games aren't real. They're entertainment. Anything is possible.

If that doesn't convince you, here's a different argument:
1. Game already have shit stories.
2. They might as well have shit physics.

We already have games with flying cars playing football and they SELL.

So what if The People had a real RPG, all the mechanics, but absolutely no limits on flying at all. Upgrades only affect things like speed and weight the inventory can hold.

Nothing, no fuel needed, no energy barriers. (Dragon Knights don't smack their heads into invisible walls.)

Next Game Please or what?

I vaguely recall this situation in one of the World of Warcraft expansions, where you could re-buy your flying mount maybe half way through all the expansion quests. As soon as you got your mount, you could just breeze through to the end-game raiding because flying let you bypass everything, making most of the cool landscape, and architecture, and paths that were designed completely pointless because no one used them.

I didn't like it, and I think flying mounts really mucked the game up.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

morrowind gave players a very powerful flight spell pretty soon. it didn't end well.

 

[PorkaMorka]

If it's an open world game, the player should be able to traverse it openly, unrestricted by artificial borders. No plot gating.
Non-artificial borders like difficulty spikes are fine though.

If your open world game's plot can be broken by the player visiting locations too early, then you should re-write the plot as it doesn't fit into an open world game.

Those are some pretty high expectations, involving developers wasting their time on a lot of additional scripting that most players won't see.

I guess it's not surprising that open world games tend to be expensive to make (which means they have to be marketed towards normies to get more sales).

 

[Not.AI]

Those are some pretty high expectations, involving developers wasting their time on a lot of additional scripting that most players won't see.

I guess it's not surprising that open world games tend to be expensive to make (which means they have to be marketed towards normies to get more sales).

The cost changed over time. That's the issue. Because graphics. Specifically clutter items. Actually somewhat paradoxical.

In the past the cost of making content any given player may skip or miss was actually dramatically less.

2005: Just make main models. Everything else flat textures or simple shapes.

2022: Much higher graphics expectations. Gotta make all the clutter models. Make sure they too look good. Well shit. And the better you make some parts, the better all other parts must also look. Gotta be consistent. Else it jars and ruins the effect. If anything looks good, everything must look as good. Now that's really expensive.

2022: Every area now needs more misc items. Like 1000. In the past were like 50-100. Most of them were spheres or boxes or things quickly made, today they are detailed and well textured.

Add alternate areas and you need 5000 misc items. Then the cost for placing it all. Mechanics for it all. Then the scripting.

Need a lot more clutter and detail items but they don't cost proportionally less. So the cost of making any area has increased much faster than quality of graphics and expectations for graphics has increased. It costs exponentially more to make an area with better graphics.

Now that might even be okay, if you could market with that extra content. But too often you can't.

Any alternate or possibly skipped areas cannot be "features" to brag about and using in marketing. Most players will miss or skip some areas unless playing three times.

But only features offset cost by helping market, because everybody will experience those.

And then all that takes too long, which is again paradoxical. Dramatically more time lost, even if you have 100 modelers at work in parallel, because of quality control. Not lack of models. Leads must check every model. Think. Then suggest changes. Meanwhile financial clock ticks.

But the expectations, from a gameplay perspective are not too high, merely just right. Else there isn't much of a game. It's an issue that's solvable but very hard and requires a lot of organization and cleverness to solve. Since organization and cleverness are in short supply in general, you see the mismatch common lately in all of A, AA, AAA.

Edit. Summary for TLDR. Procedural-Chan gonna come to the rescue of The People. And the rest will be 50 hours long animated films sold at a higher price point.

 

[JarlFrank]

If it's an open world game, the player should be able to traverse it openly, unrestricted by artificial borders. No plot gating.
Non-artificial borders like difficulty spikes are fine though.

If your open world game's plot can be broken by the player visiting locations too early, then you should re-write the plot as it doesn't fit into an open world game.

Those are some pretty high expectations, involving developers wasting their time on a lot of additional scripting that most players won't see.

I guess it's not surprising that open world games tend to be expensive to make (which means they have to be marketed towards normies to get more sales).

What scripting?

Just make your main quest goal-based instead of having it involve a linear sequence of A -> B -> C -> D -> E etc.

Like Fallout 1. The first goal is "get a water chip", the second goal is "stop the mutants". An experienced player can speedrun Fallout in 5 minutes because it's possible to just beeline towards the goals and be done with it. No fancy scripts required.

 

[JarlFrank]

2022: Every area now needs more misc items. Like 1000. In the past were like 50-100. Most of them were spheres or boxes or things quickly made, today they are detailed and well textured.

Does it though? Most decorative items will be re-used. Some can be fitted out with different textures for easy variety.
A handful of meshes can easily be re-used in a dozen different locations, especially if it's interior decoration. Maybe have 3 different styles of pottery (human, elven, dwarven) and then you spread those around based on how a character would decorate his home. A human who supports the elves might have some elven pottery next to his human one. Easy environmental storytelling.

Each culture gets, say, 3 different shapes for pots, 1 shape for plates, 2 shapes for chairs, 2 shapes for tables, the rest is done with different decorative pattern textures.

While they're made for a 20 year old engine, I think Christine's Thief objects are a great example to illustrate how easily it can be done. She has made a ton of custom objects to use in Thief's level editor, and her most common approach is to make a handful of models and then add massive variety by adding different colored textures.

Here's some decorative vases:

8 shapes. Each individual vase can have each different color for lots of variety. That big red vase on the right? You can also make it blue, or purple, or yellow, or green.
Or you can add a more decorative moasic-style texture to them:

Bam, already looks completely different!

Want decorative plates? They all share the same model, just a different texture on each one:

Same thing with chairs:

A single 3D model can go a long way.

 

[anvi]

Wanna see probably the first open world game that you can fly around in right from the start?

Spoiler

 

[Darth Canoli]

The Good Old RPG Formula don't sell no more.

But it does.
All you need is good design choices and decent graphics in order not to rebuke the graphic whores.
And if you manage a good art direction and sound ambient, you'll hit the jackpot.

As for the jet-packs**, not really, no, but why not a party on a magic carpet, flying on griffin's back or other flying vehicles?
Backtracking should be a thing of the past, or only if the story refilled previous areas with new content (and i don't mean monsters re-spawn)

In a futuristic settings and with a well crafted economic system* having to manage fuel could be interesting among other things.

*Most loot, aka second hand equipment should be near to worthless, which would make the economic system easier to manage, only trading and paid missions would net you some cash.

**Jet-packs worked well enough for Forgotten Worlds though, a shoot'em up but with money you could spend in some stores if you found them/could enter them while under fire.

 

[Fowyr]

Magic Carpet: The RPG