I got bored with the game and stopped playing before I could get properly annoyed with the incessant teleporting and combat. Nothing I've seen nor the verging-on-creepy-stalker rabid fans have convinced me to give the game a second shot. Voted meh.
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What do you think about AoD?
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
- Start date
Voted good, and I definitely look forward to playing the full game (with alchemy and ruins and continuation of certain Teron plot lines and...) Played quite a bit of the beta R1, but got a bit too familiar with it to immediately jump into R2 (as I already played with most character builds that interested me, and wasn't feeling like replaying the same choices so soon). I'm also not on the Iron Tower forums, so I'm not up to speed with the latest changes, already resolved discussions etc.
So, on a purely subjective level, I say the game is interesting enough for me to pre-order. Then again, I never expected it to be Arcanum with JA2 combat, as some people expressing disappointment seem to have
Also on a purely subjective level, there are certain things I wish were different. Off the top of my head:
- The ability to hoard skill points is bullshit. Yes, I know it's a preference and that just playing normally eliminates it, but still. If I were making the game, I'd make it so that a character can never have more than 5 unassigned skill points (automatically going to the character screen when it happens, which can not be closed until they are spent), or something harsh like that. As it stands, the game doesn't encourage spending skill points as they are gained (i.e. building a character based around certain skills and seeing where they take you), and it can easily be interpreted as encouraging skill point hoarding and increasing whichever skill is needed to finish the next quest. Yes, I know how you are going to respond to this, please hold that thought
- Or perhaps I'd like to see a "locked skills" mode, where the character doesn't assign skill points manually, but chooses a number of skills that are automatically increased whenever skill points are gained. And perhaps those skills can be changed at certain points to allow changing career paths. I'm also tempted to think about some kind of a major/minor locked skill selection (to allow different skill progression speed), but that's already getting off topic.
- I like the Darklands-ish text adventure choices. However, there are several elements of the design that detract from the experience, imho. The game is all about replaying with different characters and seeing what different paths and outcomes are possible - but the skill checks are way too static, and it's too easy to know exactly how something will play out based on previous characters. To keep replayability alive, I'd add significantly more randomization to skill checks (at least -5 to +5 threshold, set on each character creation), making each playthrough a slightly different alternative universe. But then again, I'm one of those guys who think More Randomization improves just about anything (if done properly, of course, not to get into off topic details).
- EDIT: Why randomization is so important: it makes certain skill impossible or easy without any character changes (depending on the randomization seeds), i.e. it teaches the player that failure is an option and that he's supposed to continue playing after a failed check, and deal with it. Don't blame me if this is something that needs to be taught to the players People like to optimize and seek success, and the impulse to reload and reassign skill points is currently counterbalanced only by the player's good will. Bad idea So it's not a choice between "assign skill points correctly and be king of the world" vs. "assign skill points slightly incorrectly and fail horribly" - even with the "optimal" skill choices, failure is an option with randomization. But since RNG is fair and it giveth as much as it taketh away (with enough checks), for every unfairly high check, there's an easier one out there that needs to be found. And it's different on each playthrough
- Another thing that kills the Darklands vibe are the damn skill tags in front of dialogue choices. Nuke them from orbit. Here:
I don't see any blasted NWN-style skill tags there, and it's still pretty clear how options relate to character skills and abilities. Sure, not having skill tags puts the burden on you to make the text of each choice imply the skill used, but so what? Not everything has to be perfectly clear and transparent to the player; down with the hand holding I say. Players are kept just enough "in the dark" about outcomes during combat (with the randomness), and a bit more of the same spirit would do the dialogues good. Combined with increased randomization (as mentioned above), the dialogue game would become less about gathering near-perfect knowledge about the world and molding a Jesus character that short-wires it, and more about just trying different things. And yes, I have no proof of that, but it's my impression.
- Don't get me wrong, I think the game definitely rewards playing without cheesy shit like SP hoarding and threshold memorization (with different skill outcomes, paths, dialogues etc.), and you did a good job with it. But as it stands, when you strip away the fluff, the game also "rewards" being a save-scumming faggot investing SPs into challenged skills and just scanning the dialogue tree for the highest skill you have. And it doesn't have to be a retard player doing that, it could be a perfectly normal one who just happens to be tired, or has trouble focusing at the moment. What the game should do is demand focus and attention (if you can't be bothered to read the choice, go do something else), which it then can reward (as it already does). Skill tags are just a tempting shortcut, one that encourages quick scanning and skipping. And when the player gets into that mindset, they're also going to miss out on the details you provide as rewards, and decide the game sucks -- when in fact it's their play style that prevents them from enjoying it. Not to get into quoting how players tend to optimize the fun out of games, I'll repeat: down with the hand holding I say. When the game universe is more of a black box that needs to be explored with each new character and the game requires careful reading and thought, the players are also more likely to be in the right mindset to appreciate the cool rewards it provides in different paths and outcomes.
- Crafting has too much impact on combat chars, i.e. deciding to build a combat char without crafting is a pure gimp in the beta (combat balanced around the char having access to crafted gear turns ugly for non-crafters). Could be resolved with NPC crafters that have higher quality gear, but charge a lot for it (making the decision to raise Crafting or not more about economy and quests than about no-brainer combat efficiency).
- (not AOD specific, but it has to be said) I don't remember a single non-FP game in which the ability to zoom and rotate the camera was worth the hassle of having to zoom and rotate the camera to see basic things like enemies in combat, NPCs etc. I keep fiddling with it, and then it gets re-centered when combat starts or a new area is loaded, then I fiddle with it some more, then I use the quick-travel map just to get away from having to move the bloody thing just to walk around the city... Meh. I know it's already too late to switch to a fixed camera angle, but consider this a vote to definitely lock the damn thing in the next game.
- Release the game already, I'm impatient to play it!
So, on a purely subjective level, I say the game is interesting enough for me to pre-order. Then again, I never expected it to be Arcanum with JA2 combat, as some people expressing disappointment seem to have
Also on a purely subjective level, there are certain things I wish were different. Off the top of my head:- The ability to hoard skill points is bullshit. Yes, I know it's a preference and that just playing normally eliminates it, but still. If I were making the game, I'd make it so that a character can never have more than 5 unassigned skill points (automatically going to the character screen when it happens, which can not be closed until they are spent), or something harsh like that. As it stands, the game doesn't encourage spending skill points as they are gained (i.e. building a character based around certain skills and seeing where they take you), and it can easily be interpreted as encouraging skill point hoarding and increasing whichever skill is needed to finish the next quest. Yes, I know how you are going to respond to this, please hold that thought
- Or perhaps I'd like to see a "locked skills" mode, where the character doesn't assign skill points manually, but chooses a number of skills that are automatically increased whenever skill points are gained. And perhaps those skills can be changed at certain points to allow changing career paths. I'm also tempted to think about some kind of a major/minor locked skill selection (to allow different skill progression speed), but that's already getting off topic.
- I like the Darklands-ish text adventure choices. However, there are several elements of the design that detract from the experience, imho. The game is all about replaying with different characters and seeing what different paths and outcomes are possible - but the skill checks are way too static, and it's too easy to know exactly how something will play out based on previous characters. To keep replayability alive, I'd add significantly more randomization to skill checks (at least -5 to +5 threshold, set on each character creation), making each playthrough a slightly different alternative universe. But then again, I'm one of those guys who think More Randomization improves just about anything (if done properly, of course, not to get into off topic details).
- EDIT: Why randomization is so important: it makes certain skill impossible or easy without any character changes (depending on the randomization seeds), i.e. it teaches the player that failure is an option and that he's supposed to continue playing after a failed check, and deal with it. Don't blame me if this is something that needs to be taught to the players
People like to optimize and seek success, and the impulse to reload and reassign skill points is currently counterbalanced only by the player's good will. Bad idea So it's not a choice between "assign skill points correctly and be king of the world" vs. "assign skill points slightly incorrectly and fail horribly" - even with the "optimal" skill choices, failure is an option with randomization. But since RNG is fair and it giveth as much as it taketh away (with enough checks), for every unfairly high check, there's an easier one out there that needs to be found. And it's different on each playthrough - Another thing that kills the Darklands vibe are the damn skill tags in front of dialogue choices. Nuke them from orbit. Here:
I don't see any blasted NWN-style skill tags there, and it's still pretty clear how options relate to character skills and abilities. Sure, not having skill tags puts the burden on you to make the text of each choice imply the skill used, but so what? Not everything has to be perfectly clear and transparent to the player; down with the hand holding I say. Players are kept just enough "in the dark" about outcomes during combat (with the randomness), and a bit more of the same spirit would do the dialogues good. Combined with increased randomization (as mentioned above), the dialogue game would become less about gathering near-perfect knowledge about the world and molding a Jesus character that short-wires it, and more about just trying different things. And yes, I have no proof of that, but it's my impression.
- Don't get me wrong, I think the game definitely rewards playing without cheesy shit like SP hoarding and threshold memorization (with different skill outcomes, paths, dialogues etc.), and you did a good job with it. But as it stands, when you strip away the fluff, the game also "rewards" being a save-scumming faggot investing SPs into challenged skills and just scanning the dialogue tree for the highest skill you have. And it doesn't have to be a retard player doing that, it could be a perfectly normal one who just happens to be tired, or has trouble focusing at the moment. What the game should do is demand focus and attention (if you can't be bothered to read the choice, go do something else), which it then can reward (as it already does). Skill tags are just a tempting shortcut, one that encourages quick scanning and skipping. And when the player gets into that mindset, they're also going to miss out on the details you provide as rewards, and decide the game sucks -- when in fact it's their play style that prevents them from enjoying it. Not to get into quoting how players tend to optimize the fun out of games, I'll repeat: down with the hand holding I say. When the game universe is more of a black box that needs to be explored with each new character and the game requires careful reading and thought, the players are also more likely to be in the right mindset to appreciate the cool rewards it provides in different paths and outcomes.
- Crafting has too much impact on combat chars, i.e. deciding to build a combat char without crafting is a pure gimp in the beta (combat balanced around the char having access to crafted gear turns ugly for non-crafters). Could be resolved with NPC crafters that have higher quality gear, but charge a lot for it (making the decision to raise Crafting or not more about economy and quests than about no-brainer combat efficiency).
- (not AOD specific, but it has to be said) I don't remember a single non-FP game in which the ability to zoom and rotate the camera was worth the hassle of having to zoom and rotate the camera to see basic things like enemies in combat, NPCs etc. I keep fiddling with it, and then it gets re-centered when combat starts or a new area is loaded, then I fiddle with it some more, then I use the quick-travel map just to get away from having to move the bloody thing just to walk around the city... Meh. I know it's already too late to switch to a fixed camera angle, but consider this a vote to definitely lock the damn thing in the next game.
- Release the game already, I'm impatient to play it!
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
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Skill tags were nuked in R2, weren't they?
Helton
Arcane
Quickly dismissing seems to be your shtick, mate.
People who are successful at AoD combat use these tactics you have dismissed. Do you really expect anyone to accept your claims over actual evidence? If these are not valid tactics: explain why people who use them are better at the combat than you are.
This is a pretty basic argument. The evidence contradicts your claim. Explain why or change your claim.
hiver
Guest
No they... didnt!
/
Teleporting is only a problem because the control of it is taken away from the player at times.
Thats the problem - not fast traveling itself.
Even if that was reduced in R2 its still happens and when you do have a choice it isnt presented in the best way possible.
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Helton, the perception of having tactical options is to some degree subjective. Even if you and VD do see a myriad of tactical options in AOD's gameplay mechanics, it's certainly possible for Grunker to think that "No. This isn't enough for me. I need more." And only a party-based game can deliver more.
That's not exactly true. Though I would always argue for party-based play, plenty SC cRPGs have had enough tactical variety.
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Hmm, such as?
Helton
Arcane
I'll be happy to bring the rage back to this bitch. Who the fuck cares about the perception of tactical options? If there are tactical options and you don't perceive or -- even worse -- you perceive and dismiss them guess what: you suck. Get better or fuck off. What kind of pussyfoot bullshit are you guys playing these days?
Oh you poor little bitch baby... You don't like throwing nets? Get over it or fuck off. Oh... Having an axe would be better in this situation but your axe skill is only 80% of your spear skull how could switching possibly help even though the meany guy has a shield? Fuck off.
Perception is subjective. Wonder what other brilliant insights you whiny faggots are going to bring up next. Doesn't matter they aren't the least bit relevant to game design.
Guess its a good thing I'm not designing the game.
You still think we bitch about the lack of tactical options because we can't win without them. DURR GET BETTER OR FUCK OFF HURR
Since I've completed the demo twice and finished the combat demo you should be able to put 2 and 2 together and conclude that's not the case.
But whatever, you seem more interested in raging than in a discussion.
Since I've completed the demo twice and finished the combat demo you should be able to put 2 and 2 together and conclude that's not the case.
But whatever, you seem more interested in raging than in a discussion.
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Age of decadence bored me to tears. I wouldn't play this turd if you paid me to.
Helton said:
Sure thing bro. Say, have you met hiver? I think the two of you would get right along. You seem to let out a lot of shit and he sure as hell likes talking about slupring it.
Helton
Arcane
Lol right asshole, I'm psychic and know everything about how you did in the demo. Might have been relevant info to share at some point. You dismissing everything we say and repeating your worn out bullshit does not constitute discussion. Cry more.
Helton
Arcane
I don't know who any of you faggots are but you all seem stupid as rocks. I don't give a shit whether you like AoD or not and, you might notice, I didn't respond to you. But stupid criticisms should be answered. I don't get your factional dichotomy. I don't care who hiver is or how much he does or does not like slurping shit. Why do you?
Helton
Arcane
Mellow out, man!
That is not what I mean by perception.
Yeah people who talk about perception and subjectivity don't usually mean anything. Damned if I'm going to dance for you though. Say something or don't, stop pretending.
Helton
Arcane
Are you for real?
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- 99,696
Taste is subjective. What seems like a bounty of tactical options to you, may not be enough for somebody else. For example, the amount of strategic options in any RPG pales in comparison with most serious strategy games, so a strategy game fan may consider even the most complex RPGs to be rather simple and unsatisfying.
What is it about this obvious statement that you find so offensive?
What is it about this obvious statement that you find so offensive?
Stopped reading here. I'll just make some incorrect assumtions, rage, and call you a retard now.
:helton:
Helton
Arcane
I don't find anything offensive.
If you're trying to say all rpgs
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No, that was just an example. But some people do want their RPGs to be a bit more in the direction of a strategy game - in terms of having more tactical options at all times - than AOD is.
Helton
Arcane
You're catching on.
Man you really just don't want to make any kind of point do you? Are we just observing that people have different tastes in games? Cool. Or are we dismissing Grunker's criticism as him just wanting a party based game and AoD isn't for him? Meh. Or are we suggesting that AoD should become party based? Or maybe they should add a magic system?
Right on man. I think.
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