We need more RPGs like Baba Is You

[Harthwain]

The title is a clickbait, but I think there is something in Baba Is You [BIY] that game designers could use to make RPGs more interesting than they usually are.

Here is a very short video on BIY (yes, I consider 15 minutes video to be a short one):

Spoiler

Why do I think there is something that can be learned from BIY? Because it shows how interesting interactions can be and RPGs are (or should be) essentially about how the player interacts with the world.

It is possible to build on this and make interactions systemic. Systemic interactions are much more fun than the simple, direct ones, because this gives the player the ability to CREATE his own solutions (hence the reason I am using BIY as the talking point), which can lead to much more open-ended, complex and creative ways of solving problems than a set of fixed and pre-determined outcomes.

One game that can highlight the aforementioned open-ended approach in a video gaming is Street of Rogue. It is a very simple roguelite, but I think it spiritually encompasses what all RPGs should be trying to achieve and is another great starting point to RPG-making, because it gives you the stage and you can do whatever you wish with it - your only limit to achieving your goal is your own imagination.

And all of the above can be done with a simple goal and no real narrative, meaning you can use written text to supplement the main feature (interactivity) rather than focus heavily on the written part and building your game around it (which is quite common in cRPGs, at least from my perspective).

Edit: Added one missing word.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Sometimes it's better to just have one clear cut solution. You know what I hate? How every ham-n-egger wants to TALK THROUGH their problems. What is that? "Here's the dragon at the end of the dungeon, you tore through the high level hellions you had to fight to get here, the crazy ass traps sprung on you and the unmistakable stench of ten day old undergarments because you've been camping out in this fucked up labyrinth for over a week now. You feel like shit, you look like shit, you have the big final boss before you. He is the final challenge. Then you go, 'oh please sir, consider my Charisma and Persuasion stats a moment and let me talk you out of using your one of three breath attacks for the day.'"

AND THAT'S IT? HUH? YOU MADE THE FINAL BOSS A REASONABLE GUY? HUH? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? I don't want that. I want to KILL that motherfucker. I want to tear into his guts and pry loose from the bowels of his slain carcass some sort of majestic magical sword that he swallowed at some point in life and allows me to be unmatched in glory.

I want to open that big treasure chest up and see it overflow with gold coins and jewels and exotic blades and probably some stupid shit you don't have room for but you'll encumber yourself with it anyways because this is what it's all about. That's your reward for stopping evil from taking the land. Then, ooohhoohohoho, then you go back to the kingdom and you get married to the princess and live your days clapping those cheeks red and everyone heralds you as DRAGONSLAYER GENERIC-GIANT-SPIDER, LEADER OF MAN AND BRINGER OF LIGHT.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna rip my shirt off. Watch.

Nevermind, I don't have the Strength for this. But pretend it happened, you get my point.

Hey what was this topic about again?

 

[Tigranes]

Never fear, Generic-Giant-Spider - in the vast majority of cases, we still get to kill, dismember, burn, and force push those spiders into oblivion without any talking involved!

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Ok, you are talking basically of the "immersive sims"... also for the lack of quest check lists, which I completely agree with.

It is worth noting that all the IE and IE clone RPGs have completely heavily scripted interactions, they are the antithesis of the systemic approach you are describing. This is the reason why I find them ultimately boring.

An example of the systemic approach, although still heavily scripted, is Underrail.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Hey what was this topic about again

Spiders: boiled or fried? Or stomped?

 

[WhiteShark]

Ok, you are talking basically of the "immersive sims"... also for the lack of quest check lists, which I completely agree with.

It is worth noting that all the IE and IE clone RPGs have completely heavily scripted interactions, they are the antithesis of the systemic approach you are describing. This is the reason why I find them ultimately boring.

An example of the systemic approach, although still heavily scripted, is Underrail.

I read a great article about this topic a while back: https://www.raphkoster.com/games/snippets/simulationism/

 

[Peachcurl]

Streets of Rogue was indeed fun, in terms of creative problem solving as well as telling a story without really having a story.

There's also a bunch of sandbox RPG's out there, which may try similar stuff, but they often focus on survival, crafting and combat. Which is fine, but they often miss these kinds of environmental puzzles.

 

[Reinhardt]

Pretty creative use of bucket. I say we need more rpg games like skyrim.

 

[Alex]

Pretty creative use of bucket. I say we need more rpg games like skyrim.

It actually is a pretty creative use of a bucket. Of course, there should have been more systems in place so that the NPCs could just remove the bucket from their heads. Of course the lack of such capacity makes the whole situation extremely silly. But there is creativity there to be sure.

 

[JarlFrank]

Pretty creative use of bucket. I say we need more rpg games like skyrim.

It actually is a pretty creative use of a bucket. Of course, there should have been more systems in place so that the NPCs could just remove the bucket from their heads. Of course the lack of such capacity makes the whole situation extremely silly. But there is creativity there to be sure.

Yeah. Dumb shit like that happening as an unintended side effect of systems is cool. Usually leads to memes, but it's a step in the right direction.
Object can be moved. NPC's sightlines emerge from his eyes. Put object on NPC's head to obscure eyes. NPC can't see you steal. It's a very simple example of systemic interaction, and it's basically a hilarious exploit, but this kind of thing is good.

The immersive sim approach of simulating as many elements of the game world as possible so the player can experiment and come up with his own solutions is the best possible approach to game design.
It also removes some of the workload from the devs. You don't have to come up with a dozen solutions yourself, you just design a level and the extant systems do the rest. You don't have to explicitly code in the solution of climbing up the vine into the bad guy's castle window, if all vines are climbable by default. All you have to do is place a window, place a vine, and the solution exists. No additional scripting required.

And sometimes, even unintentional solutions appear this way. Maybe you placed a vine there just because it looks good. But it's also climbable, and allows the player to reach a good position from which to jump to a nearby balcony, from which he can then enter a house containing valuable treasures. It wasn't intended, but it sure is cool!

I'm currently playing through the 2016 Hitman reboot, and it's a fun game. A lot of the optimal solutions are scripted, with you having to find out what your assassination targets are doing at which point of the level, which has a lot of timed events. But there's also a lot of dynamic interaction of systems. You can toss a coin to distract a guard. But he won't react to it if he sees you toss it. When a civilian sees you commit a crime, he'll run to the nearest guard and report it. Changing clothes allows you to remove suspicion when they return. NPCs will react to anything: hearing a sound, seeing a suspicious item on the ground, discovering a body, discovering you trespassing, etc.

That's the direction RPGs should take, too. Combine unique hand-crafted quest solutions with dynamic interconnected systems of physics, sound propagation, NPC reactions, etc.

 

[J1M]

Sometimes it's better to just have one clear cut solution. You know what I hate? How every ham-n-egger wants to TALK THROUGH their problems. What is that? "Here's the dragon at the end of the dungeon, you tore through the high level hellions you had to fight to get here, the crazy ass traps sprung on you and the unmistakable stench of ten day old undergarments because you've been camping out in this fucked up labyrinth for over a week now. You feel like shit, you look like shit, you have the big final boss before you. He is the final challenge. Then you go, 'oh please sir, consider my Charisma and Persuasion stats a moment and let me talk you out of using your one of three breath attacks for the day.'"

AND THAT'S IT? HUH? YOU MADE THE FINAL BOSS A REASONABLE GUY? HUH? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? I don't want that. I want to KILL that motherfucker. I want to tear into his guts and pry loose from the bowels of his slain carcass some sort of majestic magical sword that he swallowed at some point in life and allows me to be unmatched in glory.

I want to open that big treasure chest up and see it overflow with gold coins and jewels and exotic blades and probably some stupid shit you don't have room for but you'll encumber yourself with it anyways because this is what it's all about. That's your reward for stopping evil from taking the land. Then, ooohhoohohoho, then you go back to the kingdom and you get married to the princess and live your days clapping those cheeks red and everyone heralds you as DRAGONSLAYER GENERIC-GIANT-SPIDER, LEADER OF MAN AND BRINGER OF LIGHT.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna rip my shirt off. Watch.

Nevermind, I don't have the Strength for this. But pretend it happened, you get my point.

Hey what was this topic about again?

I don't know man, I think casting fireball magic with the item enchantment talent on a rare piercing arrow so that it explodes inside the boss would be a cool systemic RPG outcome.