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Warren Spector's Soapbox Thread

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Jarpie My guess is that Spector doesn't consider PS:T to be a serious game due to its fantasy/D&D framework.

"All I see is a game about a gray-skinned muscleman whose first act in the game is to kill a zombie."

(A lot of veteran designers don't really "get" the isometric D&D games of the late 90s, I've noticed. Not just Spector.)
 

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Been reading comments on that article...just two words: Fucking Cretins.

Two weeks ago, this might have been true, at least for mainstream gaming and blockbusters (apart from some games like Red Dead Redemption or Spec Ops: The Line).

But now, we have Bioshock Infinite.

Real world concerns, check.
There are action components, but they rather act as counterpoints to the narrative - especially close to the end.
As for the rest - it's not about art, it's about profit. People want mindless shooting and explosions and easy-going entertainment at first sight so the publishers deliver.
Thankfully, many games - especially Rockstar games - offer more. Think of it as the Simpsons or South Park of gaming: On one layer, GTA IV is about violence, shooting, killing, missions and finishing the game. On another layer, it is vitriolic criticism of capitalism, the American dream and politics.
The same goes for Red Dead Redemption and L.A. Noire.

Bioshock Infinite is one step further. It has many layers, it introduces many ideas and ideologies, and the ending is easily one of the best twists in all of entertainment.
Spec Ops: The Line and Bioshock Infinite use our trained perception of games to deceive us. We need more of this.
 

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But he is right. He was deceived, and now he thinks they introduced whole ideologies and ideas. If he ever sees Sixth sense he will piss himself with excitment over the twist.
 

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He also doesnt understand that theres not much room for expressing oneself in a game which is only 5 hours long, or by his standards "managable for normal human beeings".
Take a game like Way of the Samurai; a standard playthrough can last anything from 5 minutes to 2 hours, and you're completly free to do anything, quest choices, to dialogs (even not replying is a choice), and even begging for your life in combat instead of dying.

However, it's main flaw, IHMO, is it's so short and designed for multiple replays that it becomes "overly gamey", after 2-3 playthroughs you'll end up throwing away any "emotinnal engagement" and fear of consequences to explore all the outcomes and endings... even the most pious player will end up attacking friendly NPCs to get their swords and see what happens... not sure what could be done on that.
 

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Something I've noticed about American media culture - not just games, but also cinema, books, etc - is that they think that the height of artistic achievement is to successfully introduce slightly more sophisticated than average themes to a decidedly average audience. To create a successful compromise between artistic success and commercial success.

Or in other words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlebrow

Ken Levine said this on TTLG years ago: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117350&page=2&p=1654123#post1654123
One of our goals with BioShock was to introduce the deeper shooter to a large segment of the gaming public and make it a commercially succesful franchise. Although that's a goal I imagine some here would look down upon, it's was critically important to me personally as a developer and a gamer.

Now, that's okay, but the problem is when these people are treated by the media as artistic masters rather than the compromised pragmatists that they are. While the REAL talent gets overlooked for being "too niche" and "irrelevant".
 

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Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's "art" if people can't make on it... Stanley Parabole is to me one of the most impressive uses of gameplay to tell a story, without having the aliens/zombies/nazis that Warren complains about. But it's a freely available mod, so "it doesn't count".

Instead we get shit like Bioshock Infinite bein "art", because it has the plot of a bad sci-fi short story fused with a FPS with very expensive production values... to me it's the video-game equivalent of this:

images


"MY PUZZLE GAME IS ART!!!!11111"
 

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He also doesnt understand that theres not much room for expressing oneself in a game which is only 5 hours long, or by his standards "managable for normal human beeings".
Take a game like Way of the Samurai; a standard playthrough can last anything from 5 minutes to 2 hours, and you're completly free to do anything, quest choices, to dialogs (even not replying is a choice), and even begging for your life in combat instead of dying.

However, it's main flaw, IHMO, is it's so short and designed for multiple replays that it becomes "overly gamey", after 2-3 playthroughs you'll end up throwing away any "emotinnal engagement" and fear of consequences to explore all the outcomes and endings... even the most pious player will end up attacking friendly NPCs to get their swords and see what happens... not sure what could be done on that.


I played the first one, saw it years ago for rent in a videothek in germany. I loved it. But I dont think that such games were what he meant, since he spoke about completion. I think it wouldnt matter to you or me if Way of the samurai would book 50 hours on one single playthrough (if you got to the end) alone and there were ways to play the game up to 5 times really differently. What I really dont get and what I was serious about is his definition of a normal human beeing who cant even be expected to pumo hours upon hours in his hobby, nobody has said you have to play all the games there are or play that one overly long game in one sitting. I for one would be sad if something i really enjoy ends to soon.
 

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He also doesnt understand that theres not much room for expressing oneself in a game which is only 5 hours long, or by his standards "managable for normal human beeings".
Take a game like Way of the Samurai; a standard playthrough can last anything from 5 minutes to 2 hours, and you're completly free to do anything, quest choices, to dialogs (even not replying is a choice), and even begging for your life in combat instead of dying.

However, it's main flaw, IHMO, is it's so short and designed for multiple replays that it becomes "overly gamey", after 2-3 playthroughs you'll end up throwing away any "emotinnal engagement" and fear of consequences to explore all the outcomes and endings... even the most pious player will end up attacking friendly NPCs to get their swords and see what happens... not sure what could be done on that.


I played the first one, saw it years ago for rent in a videothek in germany. I loved it. But I dont think that such games were what he meant, since he spoke about completion. I think it wouldnt matter to you or me if Way of the samurai would book 50 hours on one single playthrough (if you got to the end) alone and there were ways to play the game up to 5 times really differently. What I really dont get and what I was serious about is his definition of a normal human beeing who cant even be expected to pumo hours upon hours in his hobby, nobody has said you have to play all the games there are or play that one overly long game in one sitting. I for one would be sad if something i really enjoy ends to soon.

Didn't Ron Gilbert say something similar in his discussion with Tim Schafer that (adventure) games shouldn't last more than 5-6 hours or so?
 

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Yes, I hate it when a game is trying to pontificate to me about social issues or sending me a message. But I hate it when watching such a movie or reading such a book too. There are books and movies that manage to be genuinely deep and clever and mature without coming across as a pretentious bowl of drivel. And games can do it too.

Spector is right about one thing though - thematically games ARE mired in action and stupid shit about zombies, aliens, evil wizards and demons. Frankly I'm sick to my stomach with all this shit. There are so many games that are complex and incredibly fun gameplay-wise but they have stupid cartoonish art and the plot is some generic shit about wizards and dragons or space nazi zombies.

Don't get me wrong, I love sci-fi and good fantasy as much as the next guy and I pledged shitload of money for TToN but sometimes I'm fucking starved for non-action games set in real world, without a single evil wizard or galactic emperor. I remember how fun it was to play for instance the old Police Quest adventures. You had to learn the lingo, the procedures, how to make busts properly and it was awesome. Hell I'd even settle for semi-real, like the phenomenal Tex Murphy series or Gabriel Knight.

If somebody Kickstarted a complex turn-based RPG set in the present, I'd sell both my kidneys and and throw in my left nut just to be the 10k backer.
 

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If somebody Kickstarted a complex turn-based RPG set in the present, I'd sell both my kidneys and and throw in my left nut just to be the 10k backer.
Still you would be resorting to police vs. thugs, or FBI vs. spies, or whatever... I think Warren longs for a game with no combat whatsoever, or very little focus on it, to avoid those retarded moments where you bring to justice a man that murdered a family by killing 200 of his bodyguards...
 

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Historical settings ftw. Ancient Babylonia, Roman Empire, Renaissance Italy. Lots of possible awesome settings.

But I still like fictional settings best because you have total narrative freedom as a writer when it comes to setting and characters.

On topic: What games could do really, really well would be to explore systems. Political systems, religious systems, social systems. What about an Italian Renaissance style setting in a large city with many noble houses and rich merchants doing politics and trying to get to power? Political intrigue, bribery, assassination, everything is used by the rich and influential to get into positions of power. The player would be thrown into this city with a quest - preferably something like solving who murdered the current ruler, something that involves the player with the politics of the city. Then he'd be free to pursue his goal in any way he wants, or even side with the murderers and help them to gain power. Give the player as many choices as he wants. Have every character be killable. Have as many different paths through the game as you can cram in.

But then, that would actually take a lot of work by talented writers and designers who can into non-linearity.
 

cvv

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The present is boring.

Even the present can offer escapist worlds we would never experience, which is probably the whole appeal of games. I think an adventure of some sort or an RPG set in the FBI, spy agency or mafia would be fantastic. Hell what about an RPG with a military setting - you start as a young army recruit, doing basic missions, slowly level up, then promotion to an sargeant (you have squadmates now to command), then maybe Green Berets, then Delta and finally some shady outfit in CIA. Shit, make that game and :takemymoney:
 

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The present is boring.

Even the present can offer escapist worlds we would never experience, which is probably the whole appeal of games. I think an adventure of some sort or an RPG set in the FBI, spy agency or mafia would be fantastic. Hell what about an RPG with a military setting - you start as a young army recruit, doing basic missions, slowly level up, then promotion to an sargeant (you have squadmates now to command), then maybe Green Berets, then Delta and finally some shady outfit in CIA. Shit, make that game and :takemymoney:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/call-of-duty-biowares-rpg-of-the-year.55515/
 

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The present is boring.

Even the present can offer escapist worlds we would never experience, which is probably the whole appeal of games. I think an adventure of some sort or an RPG set in the FBI, spy agency or mafia would be fantastic. Hell what about an RPG with a military setting - you start as a young army recruit, doing basic missions, slowly level up, then promotion to an sargeant (you have squadmates now to command), then maybe Green Berets, then Delta and finally some shady outfit in CIA. Shit, make that game and :takemymoney:


alpha-protocol-threaten.jpg
 

cvv

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The present is boring.

Even the present can offer escapist worlds we would never experience, which is probably the whole appeal of games. I think an adventure of some sort or an RPG set in the FBI, spy agency or mafia would be fantastic. Hell what about an RPG with a military setting - you start as a young army recruit, doing basic missions, slowly level up, then promotion to an sargeant (you have squadmates now to command), then maybe Green Berets, then Delta and finally some shady outfit in CIA. Shit, make that game and :takemymoney:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/call-of-duty-biowares-rpg-of-the-year.55515/

And it was such a nice discussion...

Anyway, just to nip the hatetrain in the bud, what I meant was something in the JA2 spirit, only with traditional RPG elements.
 

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How about an game where I fight the decline of the video game industry and finally destroy the demon known as EA?
 

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Blah blah blah... he has such great plans... and then makes Epic Mickey.
 

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I like it more when media showcases social issues in a more subtle way, in that you find it more in the subtext than it outright being stated (i.e. The Seventh Seal and it's question of how the religious struggle with their faith in a post atomic-bomb society.)

Having Elizabeth constantly go around saying "Woooooow, racism isn't very fair!" Lacks that subtly, and thus it feels as though the game's fucking lecturing me every time she opens her damn mouth.
 

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Blah blah blah... he has such great plans... and then makes Epic Mickey.

This.

I actually agree a lot with his first post : we should have games that are more than about saving the world and killing things. Those games should not disappear, they are great fun, but I am saddened as anyone here by the lack of creativity. Remember Alter Ego on the C64 and Apple II ? How would that look with modern technology for example ? How about an actual "President of the country" simulation that would shut everyone up about politics so that they can see how difficult and confusing it all can be ?

Only problem is that this does come from Warren Spector who made the games we know. Unless he does turn out and shellout a Kickstarter about iranian hostages, it is very hard to listen to him.
 

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Something I've noticed about American media culture - not just games, but also cinema, books, etc - is that they think that the height of artistic achievement is to successfully introduce slightly more sophisticated than average themes to a decidedly average audience. To create a successful compromise between artistic success and commercial success.

Or in other words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlebrow

That's almost a new definition of 'middlebrow', but I think it really works in this context. Woolf's conception of it was tangled up with some fairly disagreeable and sneery blanket snobbery on her part (all of these stupid ordinary bourgeois types trying to pretend they're exceptional highbrow individuals make it so much harder for those of us who really are). But gaming does seem to be suffering from this upwardly-mobile, self-validating mass insecurity about transforming its image from lowbrow slop into 'proper art', and its architects are more inclined to jam in what they see as 'artistic' tropes than to develop an individual, original voice organically.

And as a result there seems to be a rapidly developing uniformity to all of these Games Which Are Art, So Say The Press. So the 'artistic merit' stems either from the fact that they comment self-reflexively upon game mechanics (Hey, your onscreen avatar's not so heroic after all, even though you assumed they were!/Hey, you've been following instructions from the game all of this time! Why haven't you questioned the validity of those instructions?) or that they nod to Big Themes Which Everybody Already Knows About (Hey, our fantasy setting has racism in it! RACISM, everybody!). The latter is just easy point-scoring; nobody could ever argue that Bioshock Infinite or Dragon Age have anything of the most infinitesimal value to add to our existing understanding of racism, or about how revolutionaries can turn out to be just as morally compromised as the establishments they strive to overcome. It's just a trite yardstick by which a game's 'maturity' can be measured. It's affirmational elbow-nudgery; it doesn't do anything, or explore the idea with the slightest bit of original thought. It just nods towards a pre-existing, pre-concluded theme and the audience feels good about themselves for recognising it, and good about the game because it's bothered to include them kinds of Important Things what appear in other art.

Inci Aral had a nice little paragraph on this sort of thing in an authors' conference speech last year:

In my opinion some of the problems threatening the future of the novel are the market conditions that encourage uniformity. Publishers, for the sake of sales, steer promising novelists towards writing about a cheap kind of spirituality, sex, weak topical subjects, and encourage them to write about a corny kind of mysticism, turning the novel into a cheap thrill. These "fast food" books sell in their millions around the world, while novels of real quality sit in their thousands gathering dust on the shelves.

'Corny mysticism/cheap spirituality' just about sums up the appeal of the stories of most of these art games, for my money, particularly when it's mystic tosh thinly disguised as science-fiction, a la Infinite and the Mass Effect endings, but the self-reflexive stuff is so much worse - because it's not just an easy path to pseudish 'artistry' (you constructed a maudlin sideshow in your shooter depicting the emotional damage war can cause. +15 points) but because it comments lazily upon the limitations of games instead of making the active effort to improve the medium in its most obvious direction. Surely a game which bothers to give the player a chance to stealth or bluff their way past the guards has infinitely more value as a game, both in the sense of an interactive challenge and an interactive narrative, than a game which forces you to kill those guards, then yells at you, 'YOU KILLED THOSE GUARDS IN ORDER TO PROGRESS. YOU ARE A MURDERER. THIS IS VERY DEEP. YOU SHOULD WRITE A BLOG POST REFLECTING UPON HOW YOU'VE COME TO QUESTION YOUR OWN PERSONAL ETHICS AS A RESULT'. It's vapid, vapid stuff.
 

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This. :bro:

"It's affirmational elbow-nudgery; it doesn't do anything, or explore the idea with the slightest bit of original thought."

Absolutely. Although - I'm now trying to think of any games that actually came up with something original/genuine, added something of value to our collective knowledge base, but I got nothing so far. I mean "what can change the nature of man" is a genuinely interesting question but it was left without an answer (although just a good question is better than nothing I guess). Deus Ex/DXHR touched the topic of implants and the evolution of man/machine but went only so far with it. I'm sure there were others though.
 

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I see what Warren is trying to say but I think he's approaching this issue like an ignorant mule.
Not all games are (or were at least) about zombies, magic, gangsters and so on. Just because you've been brainwashed on steady diet of Call of Doodoo and Half Life doesn't mean the world was limited to just that for 30 years. You guys know what I'm talking about, mostly having in mind simulation games like Patrician, The Guild or Silent Hunter. Or adventure games, like Phoenix Wright where you play the role of a lawyer of all things.
Do you guys remember this game?

The only difference between these games and what Warren wants is that they were made during a time where mechanics mattered more than emotional engagement. But if the industry was not filled with incompetent mouth-breathers, games like these could be made by the mainstream and they would be highly successful.
 

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Raph Koster comments on Spector's words and the narrative-focused indie hipster game movement as a whole: http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/04/09/a-letter-to-leigh/

Nor do I mean to pick on indies here; Warren Spector made a statement in his session about how “story is finally getting taken seriously” that was a moment of great cognitive dissonance for me. To me, it feels like story is all that gets taken seriously in AAA, certainly, and to a large degree in the art game and indie movements. And in AAA we have seen some moves lately that speak to a conflicted relationship there as well: No Russians using exactly the same rhetorical devices as the art games, Spec Ops: The Line, the arguably failed narrative line in Far Cry 3, even the discussions over violence in Bioshock Infinite.

Games are uncomfortable with themselves, and not just on the level of “what are our narratives.” But actually on the level of “what are games for?” We see our tools taken up by crass moves into marketing and monetization, we see the craft we developed being used for manipulation, and we start asking ourselves whether everything we do is manipulation, whether we are fundamentally crass.

I find myself cheering on the punk neon fringe. But I also find myself saying “please don’t destroy everything” because some people live in there, and it is always worth getting to know people, especially the ones not like you.
 

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