Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Galdred]

The wargame stats are honestly not that great way to represent how OP spesh muhreens are in comparison to regular people (as you can hardly have a faction that would have lets say 5 accross the stat line without major balance issues). After all, marines are the average stat line in the tabletop 40K, not really an outlier.

Dark Heresy systems have this done much better as they could afford to be more nuanced. There an ordinary person has stats at about 25, with elite people (stormtroopers and such) in low 40s at best, muhreens are in their 50s at the start and can easily end up in 70s or 80s on higher levels, ie. an experienced space muhreen is about three times better at everything than an average normie. And that is of course before counting in their vastly supperior gear. Only thing that can get close to them are various temple/death cult assassins and extremely high level people like Inquisitors in extremely good gear.

Right, but the fact that their lore cannot be supported by the rules is a major ludo-narrative dissonance issue to me. I'd rather have the lore reflect the way they play in this case (ie, better than human, but not superhuman).

Anyway, a ruleset in which 1 more in a stat is a massive difference would have worked better (for instance, in Blood Bowl, 1 more Strength is really significant, as is one more in armour, except against claws... ).
The RPG are another good example indeed.

Why do Warhammer fans even think game stats = lore, this shit is getting so retarded lately like the video games "UM 3 MARINES CANT TAKR DOWN ALL THESE TYRANIDS" its a fucking video game. Lore purism is reaching retarded levels of discussion I learned to stop caring when the proclaimed LOREGOD MILITARY PROS at forge world. Wrote some of the worst tank stats of all time to the point GW had to cover up everything about those books out of embarrassment.

Because why have lore in the first place if the way you experience feels like a parody. Early Space Marine lore was perfectly in line with the stats, and much less superhuman power fantasy.
Actually, the tanks are a good example too: Many parameters, especially armor, make little sense (with the lore armor values being below today's standards...).

 

[Big_poppa_pump]

The wargame stats are honestly not that great way to represent how OP spesh muhreens are in comparison to regular people (as you can hardly have a faction that would have lets say 5 accross the stat line without major balance issues). After all, marines are the average stat line in the tabletop 40K, not really an outlier.

Dark Heresy systems have this done much better as they could afford to be more nuanced. There an ordinary person has stats at about 25, with elite people (stormtroopers and such) in low 40s at best, muhreens are in their 50s at the start and can easily end up in 70s or 80s on higher levels, ie. an experienced space muhreen is about three times better at everything than an average normie. And that is of course before counting in their vastly supperior gear. Only thing that can get close to them are various temple/death cult assassins and extremely high level people like Inquisitors in extremely good gear.

Right, but the fact that their lore cannot be supported by the rules is a major ludo-narrative dissonance issue to me. I'd rather have the lore reflect the way they play in this case (ie, better than human, but not superhuman).

Anyway, a ruleset in which 1 more in a stat is a massive difference would have worked better (for instance, in Blood Bowl, 1 more Strength is really significant, as is one more in armour, except against claws... ).
The RPG are another good example indeed.

Why do Warhammer fans even think game stats = lore, this shit is getting so retarded lately like the video games "UM 3 MARINES CANT TAKR DOWN ALL THESE TYRANIDS" its a fucking video game. Lore purism is reaching retarded levels of discussion I learned to stop caring when the proclaimed LOREGOD MILITARY PROS at forge world. Wrote some of the worst tank stats of all time to the point GW had to cover up everything about those books out of embarrassment.

Because why have lore in the first place if the way you experience feels like a parody. Early Space Marine lore was perfectly in line with the stats, and much less superhuman power fantasy.
Actually, the tanks are a good example too: Many parameters, especially armor, make little sense (with the lore armor values being below today's standards...).

You are getting confused between table top stats and the travesty of a book that Imperial Armor made they tried scrubbing that book bad for the stats

 

[Desman]

The wargame stats are honestly not that great way to represent how OP spesh muhreens are in comparison to regular people (as you can hardly have a faction that would have lets say 5 accross the stat line without major balance issues). After all, marines are the average stat line in the tabletop 40K, not really an outlier.

Dark Heresy systems have this done much better as they could afford to be more nuanced. There an ordinary person has stats at about 25, with elite people (stormtroopers and such) in low 40s at best, muhreens are in their 50s at the start and can easily end up in 70s or 80s on higher levels, ie. an experienced space muhreen is about three times better at everything than an average normie. And that is of course before counting in their vastly supperior gear. Only thing that can get close to them are various temple/death cult assassins and extremely high level people like Inquisitors in extremely good gear.

Right, but the fact that their lore cannot be supported by the rules is a major ludo-narrative dissonance issue to me. I'd rather have the lore reflect the way they play in this case (ie, better than human, but not superhuman).

Anyway, a ruleset in which 1 more in a stat is a massive difference would have worked better (for instance, in Blood Bowl, 1 more Strength is really significant, as is one more in armour, except against claws... ).
The RPG are another good example indeed.

Why do Warhammer fans even think game stats = lore, this shit is getting so retarded lately like the video games "UM 3 MARINES CANT TAKR DOWN ALL THESE TYRANIDS" its a fucking video game. Lore purism is reaching retarded levels of discussion I learned to stop caring when the proclaimed LOREGOD MILITARY PROS at forge world. Wrote some of the worst tank stats of all time to the point GW had to cover up everything about those books out of embarrassment.

Because why have lore in the first place if the way you experience feels like a parody. Early Space Marine lore was perfectly in line with the stats, and much less superhuman power fantasy.
Actually, the tanks are a good example too: Many parameters, especially armor, make little sense (with the lore armor values being below today's standards...).

40K is pretty much a Fantasy universe on a galactic scale. You have incredible heroes, huge monsters, spell casters (sorry psykers), magic weapons, demons and all the cool things. The lore and powerlevels are all over the place (so many different writers and "eras") but because the Space Marines are bestsellers GW chose to focus on this faction, that's why they have so many books about them and GW release new SM minis all the time.
Because of the "rule of cool" selling minis and books about supermen is more profitable than focusing on basic humans or weird looking aliens. When GW realized that they pretty much made the space marines more powerful and epic with every edition. They even added some stronger versions of space marines (GK and Custodes) because apparently space marines are not powerful and epic enough lol. Honestly i think it's fine, it's 40k everything is a bit silly, grandiose and grimdark.

I think that the actual problem is the tabletop game, 40k universe has always been unrealistic with all the melee combat focus but the tabletop game is an abstraction (minis are basicly using canons and lasers to fight at close range because you have to play on a table), it's the same thing with powerlevels or size of armies, it can't be lore accurate because otherwise a single custodes or a squad of SM would wipe out whole armies of regular humans/aliens and no one would want to play that shit.
The only way to make a game "lore accurate" would be a video game... like SM2 (yea marines are busted).

 

[ERYFKRAD]

unrealistic with all the melee combat focus

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Because why have lore in the first place if the way you experience feels like a parody. Early Space Marine lore was perfectly in line with the stats, and much less superhuman power fantasy.

Because of the "rule of cool" selling minis and books about supermen is more profitable than focusing on basic humans or weird looking aliens.

These are my problems with 40k in a nutshell. It feels like parody, like Sony's garbage Starship Troopers but with way more tact. The writers keep sucking ultrasmurf dick, when I don't even like them.

I want a scifi setting that is not parodic and doesn't have that dumb author favoritism. Unfortunately it looks like I'll have to make my own.

 

[Storyfag]

The writers keep sucking ultrasmurf dick, when I don't even like them.

 

[Big_poppa_pump]

Because why have lore in the first place if the way you experience feels like a parody. Early Space Marine lore was perfectly in line with the stats, and much less superhuman power fantasy.

Because of the "rule of cool" selling minis and books about supermen is more profitable than focusing on basic humans or weird looking aliens.

These are my problems with 40k in a nutshell. It feels like parody, like Sony's garbage Starship Troopers but with way more tact. The writers keep sucking ultrasmurf dick, when I don't even like them.

I want a scifi setting that is not parodic and doesn't have that dumb author favoritism. Unfortunately it looks like I'll have to make my own.

People who still complain about the Ultramarines are too fucking juvenile, what are you gonna do not make a poster boy faction?

 

[True Ukrainian]

People object because Ultramarines are the blandest of the chapters. There are far more interesting space marines that can be used as poster boys.

 

[Big_poppa_pump]

People object because Ultramarines are the blandest of the chapters. There are far more interesting space marines that can be used as poster boys.

Let me guess Black Templars? Your heckin wholesome Lamenters? Or are you a true grog for Crimson Fists? I know how this fandom operates because odds are if those were the poster boys you’d hate them too because the fandom is mostly contrarian hipsters always lookin to stand out in their lore choices.

 

[FritzedProcess]

People object because Ultramarines are the blandest of the chapters. There are far more interesting space marines that can be used as poster boys.

I used to dislike Ultramarines when I was a teenager, but nowadays they're my favourite chapter alongside, what's not to like with the Roman theme they have going on?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

You can make a good case that Ultramarines aren't really the only GW poster faction anyway; don't forget Blood Angels adorned the covers of Second Edition, all editions of Space Hulk, and were heavily featured in many dioramas. They were almost co-equal with Ultramarines, except on packaging of miniature boxes, where Ultras were default. Probably because red and blue are easy colours to distingish. Dark Angels had a starter set; Sixth Edition. All the "big four", were well represented in dioramas. Outside the big four, Black Templars also had a starter set; Third Edition. Thinking of video games, for every Space Marine 1 or Chaos Gate, you also have a Sanctus Reach, Space Hulk, Space Wolves, or Battlesector. It's like Ultramarines 45%, Blood Angels 25%, Dark Angels 10%, Space Wolves 10% and Black Templars 10%.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Here is the video game Chapter breakdown, off the top (for anyone who wants to play their chapter in a game):

Ultramarines:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate
• - Warhammer 40,000: Final Liberation
• - Warhammer 40,000: Squad Command
• - Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Boltgun

Blood Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Ascension
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Tactics
• - Warhammer 40,000: Battlesector

Space Wolves:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Wolf
• - Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach

Dark Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Deathwing

Blood Ravens:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 3

Deathwatch:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Deathwatch

Grey Knights:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters

 

[Gandalf]

Here is the video game Chapter breakdown, off the top (for anyone who wants to play their chapter in a game):

Ultramarines:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate
• - Warhammer 40,000: Squad Command
• - Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Boltgun

Blood Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Tactics
• - Warhammer 40,000: Battlesector

Space Wolves:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Wolf
• - Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach

Dark Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Deathwing

Blood Ravens:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 3

Deathwatch:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Deathwatch

Grey Knights:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters

I remember playing as some blue units in Final Liberation ages ago. Could this be Ultramarines?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Here is the video game Chapter breakdown, off the top (for anyone who wants to play their chapter in a game):

Ultramarines:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate
• - Warhammer 40,000: Squad Command
• - Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Boltgun

Blood Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk
• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Tactics
• - Warhammer 40,000: Battlesector

Space Wolves:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Wolf
• - Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach

Dark Angels:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Space Hulk - Deathwing

Blood Ravens:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 1
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 2
• - Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 3

Deathwatch:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Deathwatch

Grey Knights:

• - Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters

I remember playing as some blue units in Final Liberation ages ago. Could this be Ultramarines?

I couldn't remember if they were part of the plot, or you could just select colours. The Wiki says it's them, so I'll add them.

Also although Space Hulk - Ascension really allows you to choose your chapter, because Blood Angels are on the cover, I'm giving that one to them

 

[Parsimonious cook]

Final Liberation indeed has Ultramarines as the default SM troops, they even show up in some of the cutscenes.

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

I want more Salamanders. Real bros, even though bit high counts of melanin are present.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Regarding their gene-seed mutation for obsidian/charcoal coloured flesh. They are taken from yet-to-be formed ethnoi from 38,000 years in the future, before being subjected to Space Marine genes. Suprisingly, to their credit, the creators of Pariah Nexus depicted exactly this, when the overwhealming cultural pressure right now would be to do the usual thing, to score points with our hysterical establishment.

In 40k, I get the strong impression that ethnicity wasn't really a thing anymore in early edition lore. Humanity by the 41st milennium, after 38,000 years of nuclear wars and selection pressure, probably lacked determinate ethnicities anymore. It was with the current times that we started seeing explicit diversity quotas on official art, as usual, under the false premise that people need to see themselves in fiction to feel validated. (Everyone watched Chinese MA movies in the 1990s quite fine without anxiety).

 

[Louis_Cypher]

BTW, I dunno if this has been asked way back, but to all the thread's bros:

Q: What is your favourite Space Marine chapter personally, or if you have miniature, what Space Marine chapter do you play?

(Maybe the two are different?)

 

[Caim]

Minotaurs.

 

[Parsimonious cook]

For me its Imperial Fists. I like both their ranged/defensive specialisation as well as their lore and generaly positive and helpful approach to the rest of the Imperium (plus from the modeling stand point I appreciate that their color scheme is fairly simple). I dont have any Space Marine minis (I play Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum and I have some Ork Kommandos for Kill Team), though if I ever get around to building an SM army, its definitely gonna be Imperial Fists.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I like all the "big four" about equally, plus Imperial Fists.

But out of them, I'm gonna go with Space Wolves overall.

In the end, I took the approach of painting small numbers of multiple chapters, a unit say, seeing how I liked them, and optionally expanding the force from that core. So I have lots of small sub-500 point forces as a result, for just playing casual little skirmishes. I used to love seeing the dioramas in Codeces, so wanted to have some classic Ultramarines and Blood Angels painted for the feels. Gathered from cheap starter sprues. It was too expensive to paint any as later founding chapters, but that was a sad thing as I like Crimson Fists a lot (I like chapters that have a xenos rivalry, like Tome Keepers too with Necrons).

 

[Big_poppa_pump]

White Scars for me in both 40k and 30k, just an overall standout chapter that to me is more than just about “oops all bikes”

 

[Storyfag]

BTW, I dunno if this has been asked way back, but to all the thread's bros:

Q: What is your favourite Space Marine chapter personally, or if you have miniature, what Space Marine chapter do you play?

(Maybe the two are different?)

Smurfs for Loyalist Chapters.
Thousand Sons for Traitor Legions.

What can I say. I like REALLY blue.

Seriously though, the scheming sorcerer archetype is dear to my heart, therefore I favour the sons of Magnus. The rational architects of society that are the sons of Gulliman won the other part of my heart.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Brofisted. I really like the Ultramarines too. I remember when I was deciding how to paint my sprues, I came across lots of the negativity surrounding their over-use. But in the end, a solid, disciplined, noble, Roman-like army, was exactly something I appreciated, and I love the blue armour. So they are my largest Army, stereotypes be damned. Also, on the quiet, they care about humanity's welfare every bit as much as the Salamanders. They are just more practical about it, using statecraft.

Same goes for Imperial Fists being a kind of armoured bulwark. I'd love to go all-Gravis armour, all Terminator, and just have them stand tanking an Ork waagh.

For traitors, I am leaning toward Word Bearers. They feel so Quake 1. Or Thousand Sons who feel so Heretic/Hexen.

 

[Gandalf]

For SM, I like Black Templars, I think.