[VTM] Thin Bloods are stupid

[J1M]

Was reading parts of the VTM V5 book the other day, which reminded me how much I dislike thin bloods as a concept. Thematically, they are part of the half-vampire family, which always feels like a lack of imagination when it comes to how to handle the benefits and drawbacks of an undead character. And limited imagination when it comes to a bestiary.

In terms of game design though, here's why they are so awful.

1) The idea of the blood thinning over successive generations implies that eventually a vampire wouldn't be able to sire anymore. So it makes sense the last generation has a different rule or two. But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

2) Since the designers want players to play as neonates, but players don't want to be the lamest vampire across all fiction, there's an absurd amount of design and book space dedicated to special thin blood rules. Special benefit and flaw tables, an entirely different magic system that can produce the effects of any other Discipline, story guidance about living among humans, and so on.

3) The greatest success a thin blood can accomplish is to commit the taboo of diablerie and graduate out of these rules into a standard character. The other obvious "thin blood win conditions" of reverting to human or banding together into an organization strong enough to petition for Camarilla clan recognition don't get any plot support.

4) The game presents the thin bloods as if they are a modern plague; a recent phenomenon. But under controlled ideal conditions, it should be possible for a 4th generation vampire to sire and subsequent 15th generation children to be sired in a few weeks. It's not a process that takes thousands of years. No historical thin blood event is lazy meta plot writing.

5) Official spelling is to hyphenate thin-blood. For a game so eager to smith new words, that should really be a compound word because "duskborn" is never going to catch on.

TLDR: Just say NO to half-vampires.

 

[Longes]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

 

[Larianshill]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

I am immensely puzzled by the initial pitch being "alright, we're going to CUT options". Being an anarch and fucking up Camarilla is certainly a way to play, but some people - a great number of them, even - like being slimy social climbing of the Camarilla, or the brotherhood and novelty of Sabbath. Casting Camarilla as strictly an antagonist and removing Sabbath from the equation altogether seems like a mistake.

 

[spectre]

Well, it is a logical conclusion to draw if you completely ignore the whole "personal horror" aspect of VtM, which I was told is an essential thing in this system.
I mean, I haven't checked on it in a while, so things might have changed over the years, but it used to be like this: if you want a power fantasy and sperg about shit being overpowered and/or underpowered,
you just might have the wrong game. If you think that's fucking geh, congratulations, welcome to VtM.

Originally, thin-bloods used to be the way for whiny emo bitches getting even more whiny-emo-bitchy, because VtM is the product of the 90s where we were all over this shit.
The double horror of bearing the mark of Kain whilst getting none of the perks. Eternal damnation with no possibility of redemption, and everyone is in the same boat regardless of their rung in the pecking order.
I think that's basically it.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Some thin blood perks are incredibly good though. Daywalker for one. What a thin blood lacks in power, he makes up somewhat in versatility.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, it is a logical conclusion to draw if you completely ignore the whole "personal horror" aspect of VtM,

I don't think I've quite ever understood the entire "personal horror" thing. What, exactly, is supposed to be so horrifying? Turning into an bloodsucking monster that preys upon the common folk is certainly unusual, but you could do better just going into politics. At least being a vampire is honest.

So what's left? Being burned by the accursed light of the hated daystar and forced to become a creature of the night? This is the Codex, that is already the status quo for, like, at least half of us.

Doomed to eternal damnation? Again, Codex.

Everything else is a perk. Where's the horror again?

4) The game presents the thin bloods as if they are a modern plague, a recent phenomenon. But under controlled ideal conditions, it should be possible for a 4th generation vampire to sire and subsequent 15th generation children to be sired in a few weeks. It's not a process that takes thousands of years. No historical thin blood event is lazy meta plot writing.

That's the rub, isn't it? Are these conditions that will typically manifest under uncontrolled, non-ideal conditions? Is anyone actually going to document this? Keep in mind Science was only invented in the 1500s. Prior to that people just pushed buttons at random with no particular goal or rigorous process, and didn't bother to share their results. If someone managed to cause such a thing before, they probably weren't sharing. Especially when you consider that vampires are not in a huge rush to create more vampires, or else everyone on the planet would become a vampire within weeks.

 

[J1M]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

 

[Delterius]

But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

but its not a second set of young vampire rules, is it

pretty sure caitiff are thin blooded

 

[True Ukrainian]

But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

but its not a second set of young vampire rules, is it

pretty sure caitiff are thin blooded

Not all caitiff are thin blooded.

 

[J1M]

Well, it is a logical conclusion to draw if you completely ignore the whole "personal horror" aspect of VtM,

I don't think I've quite ever understood the entire "personal horror" thing. What, exactly, is supposed to be so horrifying? Turning into an bloodsucking monster that preys upon the common folk is certainly unusual, but you could do better just going into politics. At least being a vampire is honest.

So what's left? Being burned by the accursed light of the hated daystar and forced to become a creature of the night? This is the Codex, that is already the status quo for, like, at least half of us.

Doomed to eternal damnation? Again, Codex.

Everything else is a perk. Where's the horror again?

4) The game presents the thin bloods as if they are a modern plague, a recent phenomenon. But under controlled ideal conditions, it should be possible for a 4th generation vampire to sire and subsequent 15th generation children to be sired in a few weeks. It's not a process that takes thousands of years. No historical thin blood event is lazy meta plot writing.

That's the rub, isn't it? Are these conditions that will typically manifest under uncontrolled, non-ideal conditions? Is anyone actually going to document this? Keep in mind Science was only invented in the 1500s. Prior to that people just pushed buttons at random with no particular goal or rigorous process, and didn't bother to share their results. If someone managed to cause such a thing before, they probably weren't sharing. Especially when you consider that vampires are not in a huge rush to create more vampires, or else everyone on the planet would become a vampire within weeks.

Some of the clans/sects/factions are portrayed as quite reckless. Beyond that, there should be thin blood "legends" among the kindred from isolated incidents in the past. The idea that they are a modern phenomenon without additional plot hooks regarding a cause is lazy.

 

[Longes]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did get have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

The fact that you can actually sit at the big boys table is what I like about V5. You can just be on the Tremere New Council, or be one of the top Giovanni, or an heir of Hardestadt. V5 does occasionally allow you to interact with the bigger setting instead of being someone's bitch, and that's a good thing.

 

[Delterius]

But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

but its not a second set of young vampire rules, is it

pretty sure caitiff are thin blooded

Not all caitiff are thin blooded.

Caitiff is a complicated term with two general meanings. The first meaning is more of a political term: those of a flawed or unknown lineage, who have been abandoned by their sires. It is not so much that they lack a Clan as they lack the support that comes with the Clan structure. It carries the implication that they were a mistake by their sire. Many of these unfortunates are considered Caitiff simply because they do not know which Clan they come from, because they had not been told. It is an arbitrary title and may refer more specifically to any outcast.

The second and more biologically-oriented Caitiff, also known as the clanless, are rare Cainites that do not officially belong to any clan. These vampires have no inherent clan weakness, but no inherent disciplines as well. None of the typical clan markers apply to them. Although the Caitiff have manifested throughout history, they tend to do so more frequently among the higher generations, such that the terms "Caitiff" and "Thin-blooded" are often considered synonymous. While there is considerable overlap, not all Caitiff are thin-bloods.

Sure, all thin blooded (tend to politically be) caitiff but not all caitiff are thin blooded. But assuming the wiki isn't pulling my leg then 'caitiff with special young vampire rules' is the exact same as being thin-blooded.

 

[Longes]

Well, it is a logical conclusion to draw if you completely ignore the whole "personal horror" aspect of VtM,

I don't think I've quite ever understood the entire "personal horror" thing. What, exactly, is supposed to be so horrifying? Turning into an bloodsucking monster that preys upon the common folk is certainly unusual, but you could do better just going into politics. At least being a vampire is honest.

So what's left? Being burned by the accursed light of the hated daystar and forced to become a creature of the night? This is the Codex, that is already the status quo for, like, at least half of us.

Doomed to eternal damnation? Again, Codex.

Everything else is a perk. Where's the horror again?

4) The game presents the thin bloods as if they are a modern plague, a recent phenomenon. But under controlled ideal conditions, it should be possible for a 4th generation vampire to sire and subsequent 15th generation children to be sired in a few weeks. It's not a process that takes thousands of years. No historical thin blood event is lazy meta plot writing.

That's the rub, isn't it? Are these conditions that will typically manifest under uncontrolled, non-ideal conditions? Is anyone actually going to document this? Keep in mind Science was only invented in the 1500s. Prior to that people just pushed buttons at random with no particular goal or rigorous process, and didn't bother to share their results. If someone managed to cause such a thing before, they probably weren't sharing. Especially when you consider that vampires are not in a huge rush to create more vampires, or else everyone on the planet would become a vampire within weeks.

Some of the clans/sects/factions are portrayed as quite reckless. Beyond that, there should be thin blood "legends" among the kindred from isolated incidents in the past. The idea that they are a modern phenomenon without additional plot hooks regarding a cause is lazy.

Thin-bloods are not a modern phenomenon. They are literally in the Book of Nod - proliferation of thin-bloods is one of the signs of the Gehenna - vampires always knew about the thin-bloods. There's a flaw for being a thin-blood in the Dark Ages books.

 

[Norfleet]

Beyond that, there should be thin blood "legends" among the kindred from isolated incidents in the past. The idea that they are a modern phenomenon without additional plot hooks regarding a cause is lazy.

Has it been conclusively determined that there AREN'T? I mean, let's suppose they existed. What would have happened? They'd have gotten killed and/or eaten by the much more powerful vampires around them, most likely. And those people would then...post about it on Ye Olde Message Boarde using TCP/IP over Avian?

 

[Longes]

But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

but its not a second set of young vampire rules, is it

pretty sure caitiff are thin blooded

Not all caitiff are thin blooded.

Caitiff is a complicated term with two general meanings. The first meaning is more of a political term: those of a flawed or unknown lineage, who have been abandoned by their sires. It is not so much that they lack a Clan as they lack the support that comes with the Clan structure. It carries the implication that they were a mistake by their sire. Many of these unfortunates are considered Caitiff simply because they do not know which Clan they come from, because they had not been told. It is an arbitrary title and may refer more specifically to any outcast.

The second and more biologically-oriented Caitiff, also known as the clanless, are rare Cainites that do not officially belong to any clan. These vampires have no inherent clan weakness, but no inherent disciplines as well. None of the typical clan markers apply to them. Although the Caitiff have manifested throughout history, they tend to do so more frequently among the higher generations, such that the terms "Caitiff" and "Thin-blooded" are often considered synonymous. While there is considerable overlap, not all Caitiff are thin-bloods.

Sure, all thin blooded (tend to politically be) caitiff but not all caitiff are thin blooded. But assuming the wiki isn't pulling my leg then 'caitiff with special young vampire rules' is the exact same as being thin-blooded.

The Enlightened Wiki Reader has logged in.

No. A Caitiff is a regular vampire who has no clan curse and no clan disciplines.
A thin-blood in old editions is a shitty vampire of either 14th+ generation, or of low generation with very weak blood. They don't have a clan curse or clan disciplines, are limited to first three levels of any discipline, and spend blood points at a 2:1 ratio.
A thin-blood in V5 is a shitty vampire of 14th+ generation. They don't have a clan curse and can't learn any disciplines, but they can make magic potions out of their blood.

 

[Delterius]

No. A Caitiff is a regular vampire who has no clan curse and no clan disciplines.
A thin-blood in old editions is a shitty vampire of either 14th+ generation, or of low generation with very weak blood. They don't have a clan curse or clan disciplines, are limited to first three levels of any discipline, and spend blood points at a 2:1 ratio.
A thin-blood in V5 is a shitty vampire of 14th+ generation. They don't have a clan curse and can't learn any disciplines, but they can make magic potions out of their blood.

it still doesn't sound like they have wildly different rulesets until the inclusion of thin blooded alchemy

 

[J1M]

But the game already has this concept in the clanless Caitiff, those whose gifts are so weak they can learn any Discipline (slowly) and don't have a clan bane. A second set of special young vampire rules is redundant.

but its not a second set of young vampire rules, is it

pretty sure caitiff are thin blooded

Not all caitiff are thin blooded.

Depends on the edition. V5 appears to use Caitiff as a term for "full vampire that is too weak to manifest clan perks and banes". Usually, but not always excluded from the Camarilla.

Thin bloods are half-vampires that have to take more flaws and have different rules for disciplines.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

vtm is stupid
if you disagree, realize most of the parts you think are good are the parts the creators never intended for you to enjoy

 

[lightbane]

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

Reminder: The vampire fighting for minorities.

Spoiler

 

[Storyfag]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did get have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

The fact that you can actually sit at the big boys table is what I like about V5.

But it really doesn't. Starting characters are limited to being Ancillae at best, and these just will not rub elbows with what big boys are left. Anything to that end would necessitate the Storyteller's special dispensation. And that makes V5 no different than previous installments, save making the big boys table a lot duller by removing a lot of the Elders.

 

[Longes]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did get have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

The fact that you can actually sit at the big boys table is what I like about V5.

But it really doesn't. Starting characters are limited to being Ancillae at best, and these just will not rub elbows with what big boys are left. Anything to that end would necessitate the Storyteller's special dispensation. And that makes V5 no different than previous installments, save making the big boys table a lot duller by removing a lot of the Elders.

Incorrect. Here's a bunch of loresheets that do what I described:

Spoiler

 

[Fedora Master]

Thinbloods should be the "related but lesser" archetype for Vampire (instead of ghouls) like Werewolves have kinfolk and Mages have hedge wizards. That's it. Not that anyone ever played those when the real thing is right fucking there.

 

[Storyfag]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did get have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

The fact that you can actually sit at the big boys table is what I like about V5.

But it really doesn't. Starting characters are limited to being Ancillae at best, and these just will not rub elbows with what big boys are left. Anything to that end would necessitate the Storyteller's special dispensation. And that makes V5 no different than previous installments, save making the big boys table a lot duller by removing a lot of the Elders.

Incorrect. Here's a bunch of loresheets that do what I described:

Spoiler

Lovely, but contradicted by page 137 of the core rulebook, the Sea of Time section. Not gonna bother posting a fancy screenshot, but it does limit the options to Ancillae max. 10th Generation, Blood Potency 2 creatures vying for power in the Tremere Council (as if people like Schrekt or Strauss would have any of it!) or the upper echelons of the Hecata are a poor joke. What next? A 10th Gen Cardinal eyeing the Regency?

 

[Longes]

First thing to know - the initial design pitch for V5 was for the thin-bloods to be the only playable kind of vampire. Thin-bloods are the vision of the setting that Martin Ericsson had. Much like VtM 1e premise was "it's the end times, you are the 13th generation, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks", so V5 was supposed to be "It's the end times, you are thin-bloods, the shittiest vampires on the block, go and fuck up them Camarilla pricks now that all the elders have fucked off."

But as we all know - that didn't work out. The game was (sensibly) changed to include vampires people actually want to play, and Onyx Path said "lol what do you mean no elders" and seeded the game with a billion secret elders like Helena in Chicago and the Hecata leadership. So fugged about fucking anything up, you are still a puppet on strings.

Rules-wise, thin-bloods suck ass. They start the game ~50xp behind everyone else, since they get no disciplines and no Predator Type (and thus no free advantages from it). And that's on top of thin-bloods just being shittier and weaker than regular vampires. Thin-blood Alchemy is one of those disciplines that's super duper powerful given infinite XP and infinite time, but you have neither so it sucks ass.

As for the speed of thin-blood siring - yes and no. Is it possible? Yes. But since it didn't happen we can reason that vampires are reasonably careful in selecting their progeny and don't just shit out kids every couple days. And given that younger generations are subject of the Book of Nod apocalyptic prophecies - cullings happen too.

Thanks for confirming that. I don't follow author commentary, but given the book's focus on things like blood affinity and thin blood alchemy I did get have the impression that the designers would prefer players create a thin blood.

It is a strange whim though, since they also beheaded all of the organizations that might oppress thin bloods and suggest many times that anyone can just stroll into managing a prestigious domain because the elders left without packing.

So on one hand, the characters are so weak they need lots of special rules to function, but they can expect to easily land high ranking positions in legacy power structures. It's not "personal horror", it's an SJW's wet dream.

The fact that you can actually sit at the big boys table is what I like about V5.

But it really doesn't. Starting characters are limited to being Ancillae at best, and these just will not rub elbows with what big boys are left. Anything to that end would necessitate the Storyteller's special dispensation. And that makes V5 no different than previous installments, save making the big boys table a lot duller by removing a lot of the Elders.

Incorrect. Here's a bunch of loresheets that do what I described:

Spoiler

Lovely, but contradicted by page 137 of the core rulebook, the Sea of Time section. Not gonna bother posting a fancy screenshot, but it does limit the options to Ancillae max. 10th Generation, Blood Potency 2 creatures vying for power in the Tremere Council (as if people like Schrekt or Strauss would have any of it!) or the upper echelons of the Hecata are a poor joke. What next? A 10th Gen Cardinal eyeing the Regency?

Yes? That's not a contradiction. A premise of V5, that the V5 writers occasionally remember, is that all the old vampires fucked off. It's the young people's game now. People like Karl Shrek need you, because all the old methods just blew up in their faces.

 

[Storyfag]

People like Karl Shrek need you, because all the old methods just blew up in their faces.

HOPW ROEWUR NE.