Underwhelming Character Builds

[Saldrone]

A thread talking about RPGs with specific character builds that are pretty cool and fun in theory but are actually frustating in practique.

Specific examples include: Making a Bruiser Chosen One who is technically a human gorilla but is slow like slug (And you even get that STR bonus once you get power armor). Making a Transmuter Bhaalspawn who is specialized in the arts of manipulation of physics and matter itself but loses essential protective spells. Making JC Denton an amphibious superhuman swimmer but water sections are pretty situational and rarely ever makes a difference if he is specialized on it.

 

[mondblut]

Knowing what works and what doesn't is the closest you get to being "good at the game" as far as RPGs are concerned.

 

[Serus]

Some o those examples sound not underwhelming but simply bad for the sake of being bad. Especially the last one. For me underwhelming would be making a fighter with a weapon that is isn't optimal (because you know, swords are the best in 90% of fantasy crpgs) or a mage that is abut crowd control in game where nuking is stronger and vice versa. Making a linguist in Daggerfall, on the other, is simply silly - sadly.

 

[Saldrone]

Some o those examples sound not underwhelming but simply bad for the sake of being bad. For me underwhelming would be making a fighter with a weapon that is isn't optimal (because you know, swords are the best in 90% of fantasy crpgs) or a mage that is abut crowd control in game where nuking is stronger and vice versa. Making a linguist in Daggerfall, on the other, is simply silly - sadly.

It's ironic that swords in fiction are pretty powerful and treated as main weapons when in real life they were a backup weapon to spears and polearms. It's like making pistols the more powerful choice compared to assault rifles

Knowing what works and what doesn't is the closest you get to being "good at the game" as far as RPGs are concerned.

Yes but my point is mostly about the viability of properly "roleplaying" as something instead of focusing on min-maxing

 

[notpl]

Anything based on damage-over-time effects, almost without exception. Poison in Underrail comes immediately to mind. You could literally quadruple the damage and it would still be a waste of feats and inventory space.

 

[AdolfSatan]

That last one is prolly the most recurrent one. Builds around wearing the enemy down (whether it’s debuffs, poison, tanking, etc.) sound interesting but always end up being slow and boring compared to just blasting everyone to hell.

 

[roguefrog]

Traps, throwing, and explosives I generally don't take, unless they are secondary to a primary combat skill.

Big Guns in Fallout didn't get the job done in the endgame. I remember trying to figure something out...

The shotgun/assault rifle in Alpha Protocol sucked compared to the Pistol. Holy hell the pistol was OP in that game.

 

[mondblut]

Yes but my point is mostly about the viability of properly "roleplaying" as something instead of focusing on min-maxing

Any proper game is about problem solving above all. If you're looking to play doctor and patient, there are other kinds of entertainment for that. Those without win and lose conditions.

 

[notpl]

That last one is prolly the most recurrent one. Builds around wearing the enemy down (whether it’s debuffs, poison, tanking, etc.) sound interesting but always end up being slow and boring compared to just blasting everyone to hell.

And worse at it to boot! I could at least see the argument if they were effective, but it always takes 10 rounds to kill something that another build could've been done with in 3.

 

[Serus]

That last one is prolly the most recurrent one. Builds around wearing the enemy down (whether it’s debuffs, poison, tanking, etc.) sound interesting but always end up being slow and boring compared to just blasting everyone to hell.

Tanking is strong in some games. I challenge you to try a Battle Brothers campaign without a single tank in the company.
Debuffs can be ok in some games too. Battle Brothers again with its overwhelm mechanic. Yeah i know, BB is not a CRPG sensu stricto but close.
What is almost universally weak are the damage-over-time skills. They always seem too weak, too slow, too ineffective compared to everything else.

 

[destinae vomitus]

Stealth/thievery tends to be half-baked or superfluous in games (particularly party based ones) that present it as an option. Assuming it even functions it often just serves to let you skip fights (i.e. skip loot & exp) or snatch already inexpensive stuff for free, with the risk of angering the entire NPC populace for the heinous crime of attempting to filch a single health potion.

 

[Average Manatee]

Almost every save vs. x or die/debuff ability in D&D based games on weapons or on classes that don't explicitly maximize DC like full casters. It's always something retardedly weak that is resisted 95% of the time by everything that isn't flat out immune to it to begin with. Why yes I would love to unlock a DC 20 ability at level 20 when the average enemy would need at least DC 40 to begin to have a chance to fail.

 

[Max Damage]

Speaking of D&D, many prestige classes are straight up worse than just sticking to your current class. Mystic Theurge sacrifices normal spell progression and class features just to get some more casts, Assassin and Weapon Master rely so much on poison/crits that their power becomes useless against many immune enemies, and Harper Scout is so bad that it's closest you can get to burning level ups on nothing.

 

[Cohesion]

What is almost universally weak are the damage-over-time skills. They always seem too weak, too slow, too ineffective compared to everything else.

Warlock dot builds (Affliction) were pretty strong in WoW.

Also good in Last Epoch.

EDIT: But yeah don't remember strong dots in classic single player CRPGS.

 

[luj1]

Going in blind and creating characters with distinct advantages and disadvantages is for me the best part about RPGs

 

[luj1]

Warlock dot builds (Affliction) were pretty strong in WoW.

Also good in Last Epoch.

And in Path of Exile

 

[luj1]

Underwhelming - Rogue in NWN, Scoundrel in KotOR, spellcasters (and battlemages) in Morrowind, throwing in most games (it's strong in blobbers), etc.

 

[Average Manatee]

Monk in BG2 and 3rd ed D&D. Why yes I want a fighter with less AC, less AB, getting no bonuses from weapons, lower damage, and no redeeming qualities at all.

EDIT: But yeah don't remember strong dots in classic single player CRPGS.

If Guild Wars 1 counts as a CRPG, it definitely has strong dots. Both in the form of degen and in "hexed enemy takes 50 damage every time it does x" abilities. Part of this is because all of these abilities ignore armor and therefor bypass a lot of resistance to most direct damage that high level enemies have.

 

[deuxhero]

Damage of over time's problem is that it either needs to be relatively easy to be good at (toxic in Pokemon can be learned by almost anything and doesn't care about attack stat, so you are only using a moveslot to stick it on something bulky) and/or absurdly effective compared to normal damage options to justify because it inherently requires the player both have a damage over time inflicter AND a wall in order for it to be useful, whereas specializing in raw damage only requires a character specialize in raw damage. This is why when it's useful it's either percent of HP based as an anti-wall, or in a party game where a wall if something the party might want anyways.

 

[Pocgels]

The builds where you have a lot of health and armor and do damage to enemies that hit you. The reflect damage is never allowed to be good so it's just a waste and you're almost always better off doing basically anything else.

 

[Average Manatee]

The builds where you have a lot of health and armor and do damage to enemies that hit you. The reflect damage is never allowed to be good so it's just a waste and you're almost always better off doing basically anything else.

These exist in Grim Dawn, and are some of the strongest/easiest builds to play while also being quite quick to kill things.

And if I can go back to Guild Wars, there's the infamous 55 monk who uses protective spirit (attacks can deal max of 10% of your total HP) and then lowers their health to a minimum of 55 + use additional healing or damage reduction to tank forever while things kill themselves on you. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/55_Monk

 

[ind33d]

actually it would be much more interesting if difficulty settings in games just made your character's stats shittier

dark souls basically does this where playing a non-caster is like choosing to have autism

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

Scoundrel in KotOR,

My first playthrough of KOTOR was a perfect example of how you can overthink the meta game. I went in blind and thought to myself that there must be some kind of reward or advantage to going for a blaster build. Obviously every star wars nerd would go for a melee/lightsaber character so the devs have to give you some incentive to use guns, right?

...No, the guns absolutely suck compared to the lightsabers as you would expect with common sense and my character was carried through the game by his Jedi party members. Gave the run some fun flavor though looking back.

 

[Average Manatee]

actually it would be much more interesting if difficulty settings in games just made your character's stats shittier

System Shock 2 does this since all character upgrades go up in price with difficulty.

 

[mondblut]

actually it would be much more interesting if difficulty settings in games just made your character's stats shittier

Hear hear. RPGs don't need difficulty settings at all. It already comes packed with the character generation. You want a harder game, you create a shittier character.