Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Blaine]

Alfons

Spoiler

Well, I beat him in the alpha. I won't know what's up in 1.0 until I try it myself, and I'm psi this playthrough. Note that your own Throwing skill and Dexterity will greatly increase your odds of landing a net on him, while your own Evasion (if you have it) will likewise increase your odds of evading his nets. As far as tasers and flashbangs go, I have no way of knowing if anything untoward is going on behind the scenes to give him a particular advantage in stats, skill levels, etc.

I'm not entirely sure why you're upset. The fight really isn't meant to be fair in any way, and there's no universal imperative to provide you with an accessible means to win, especially at a very low level when you lack advanced feats, extra stats, high-ranked skills, potentially tons of extra health, strong medicines, and far better armor and equipment also. There's more to it than just "leveling up"; Super Steel and infused leather exist, and unless I'm remembering incorrectly I believe you're allowed to use all of your equipment in the fight.

It may be that some builds can't beat him at all, although I doubt it unless they're flat-out inadvisable... and for builds that don't focus wholly on combat, well, the Arena is all about combat. Not everyone needs to complete every quest.

 

[ST'Ranger]

Attacking skills are measured directly against defending skills to calculate successful hit probability. If your attacking skill is 9*X and his defending skill is 25*X or even 15*X, then...

 

[PhantasmaNL]

Do damage increasing feats like hypertoxicity get factored in in the Tooltip text? (Of the poisoned weapon, in this case bolts)

 

[Alfons]

Blaine

Spoiler

It's possible numbers will solve it, but the amount of attacks he gets and the amount of damage he does with each means that unless he gets blown up in one turn or CCd so he can't attack you he will eventually fuck you up. I used the flashbang and taser strategy in the alpha without a problem, it looks like his resolve was raised since then.

There are no more feats that will significantly help me against him, that's the point. Higher dodge/evasion, guns, and throwing are the only things that will help. I know for a fact that the numbers for dodge/evasion aren't enough to not get hit by him, the damage at level 24 isn't enough to kill him in a single turn and going past 120 with throwing is only useful if you intend to use the non aoe utilities.

Not supposed to be fair well wtf is it supposed to be then? Impossible? Does that pass as good design now? Either Styg realized what a load of shit this fight is or the coder fucked up. Before every arena fight you get a save, that allows you to reload after the cutscene if you fail, but it takes away the ability to initiate combat and gurantee yourself the first turn. Every fight is like that, except Carnifex, even though he has the longest introduction. That mean that against Carnifex you still have the ability to initiate combat first, each time, because if you don't you're fucked.

ST'Ranger, so the chance for the flashbang to have an effect or for the taser to work is tied to a skill or are you just a fucking retard?

 

[Zdzisiu]

Blaine

Spoiler

It's possible numbers will solve it, but the amount of attacks he gets and the amount of damage he does with each means that unless he gets blown up in one turn or CCd so he can't attack you he will eventually fuck you up. I used the flashbang and taser strategy in the alpha without a problem, it looks like his resolve was raised since then.

There are no more feats that will significantly help me against him, that's the point. Higher dodge/evasion, guns, and throwing are the only things that will help. I know for a fact that the numbers for dodge/evasion aren't enough to not get hit by him, the damage at level 24 isn't enough to kill him in a single turn and going past 120 with throwing is only useful if you intend to use the non aoe utilities.

Not supposed to be fair well wtf is it supposed to be then? Impossible? Does that pass as good design now? Either Styg realized what a load of shit this fight is or the coder fucked up. Before every arena fight you get a save, that allows you to reload after the cutscene if you fail, but it takes away the ability to initiate combat and gurantee yourself the first turn. Every fight is like that, except Carnifex, even though he has the longest introduction. That mean that against Carnifex you still have the ability to initiate combat first, each time, because if you don't you're fucked.

ST'Ranger, so the chance for the flashbang to have an effect or for the taser to work is tied to a skill or are you just a fucking retard?

Spoiler

I like how Carnifex is making people butthurt by presenting seemingly impossible to beat challenge. I'm with you bro, my ego was bruised by that bastard many times since EA, I tried to kill him at level 15 and got my ass whooped, returned around 20 and still got my ass beaten, and finally managed to down him at level 24 with my hammer retard with a lucky crit or two and an armour that made his hit really weak. I had an easier time with him when I played unarmed boxer or a pistol dude. He may not be entirely fair but treat him as the payback for all the unfair things you did to poor AI oponents. All the cut-throat from stealth kills, all the pistol executions, or Psi perma stunlock, or grenade and traps abuse, or kiting. Now you are at the receiving end of the "unfairness".

 

[Alfons]

Spoiler

I like how Carnifex is making people butthurt by presenting seemingly impossible to beat challenge. I'm with you bro, my ego was bruised by that bastard many times since EA, I tried to kill him at level 15 and got my ass whooped, returned around 20 and still got my ass beaten, and finally managed to down him at level 24 with my hammer retard with a lucky crit or two and an armour that made his hit really weak. I had an easier time with him when I played unarmed boxer or a pistol dude. He may not be entirely fair but treat him as the payback for all the unfair things you did to poor AI oponents. All the cut-throat from stealth kills, all the pistol executions, or Psi perma stunlock, or grenade and traps abuse, or kiting. Now you are at the receiving end of the "unfairness".

Spoiler

During the alpha I had no problem with him, he didn't present much more of a challenge than any other gladiator, the process of killing him was more involved but the engine was the same. Stunlock him indefinitely by using flashbangs. Not a very compelling boss for sure, but neither is getting decimated in a single turn. If levelling does solve it then NP but I just can't see a char that doesn't have maxed out CC skills beating him. Basically, psi, throwing, or traps or GTFO.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Mein Gott, I now have a power fist! Sadly, my build is a knife user not Rocky Balboa wannabe. But for my another playthrought, I know where to look for this baby.

 

[ST'Ranger]

"The problem with that reasoning is all the CC my char is ever going to have is throwing. As far as I know that limits you to flashbangs, taser, net, and caltrops."

Alfons, I don't like singling people out. But on the subject of Underrail, you've been consistently quick to throw out words like "retard" and consistently slow to learn. Practically every discussion in which you participated in the previous thread involved you namecalling others because they were trying to help you with problems you couldn't solve. I think it's well past time for some humility.

 

[Blaine]

Alfons

Flashbangs and so on are resisted by Fortitude, which is derived from character level plus 60% of Constitution, 20% of Strength, and 20% of Will. The exact formula is unclear, but the overall effect is that heavy melee guys usually have the most, followed perhaps by AR heavy guys with good CON, followed by psi guys with decent CON and high WIL, and bringing up the caboose in last place, stealth characters with typically absolutely not a damned bit of notable STR, CON, or WIL.

 

[epeli]

Spoiler

During the alpha I had no problem with him, he didn't present much more of a challenge than any other gladiator, the process of killing him was more involved but the engine was the same. Stunlock him indefinitely by using flashbangs. Not a very compelling boss for sure, but neither is getting decimated in a single turn. If levelling does solve it then NP but I just can't see a char that doesn't have maxed out CC skills beating him. Basically, psi, throwing, or traps or GTFO.

Spoiler

Carnifex has always had ridiculously high constitution and subsequently very high fortitude. If you managed to stunlock him with flashbangs or any other physical trauma in alpha, lady luck was on your side. I don't believe his stats have changed, but the leveling curve has, so you might be fighting him at lower level than you're used to.

You can always try to brute force your way through challenges with higher numbers (more levels, better gear, minmaxing), but every viable build should have at least some crowd control - there's much more than psi, throwing and traps. The build that has by far the easiest time with Carnifex doesn't even use any of those.

... by Fortitude, which are derived from character level plus 60% of Constitution, 20% of Strength, and 20% of Will. The exact formula is unclear ...

If anyone's curious, the saving throws (Fortitude/Resolve/Detection) work like skills that get 4-5 points auto-invested into them each level. Then a base ability modifier is applied to them, just like normal skills. Fortitude is the oddball since it derives from three base abilities rather than one.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, the leveling curve has most definitely changed even (perhaps especially) on Oddity mode. I'd really rather have gone with traditional XP since I forewent both Lockpicking and Pickpocket this time around, but naturally I have to complete the new Oddity catalog... hopefully it can be completed without either of those two skills, just not as quickly.

 

[cfisher2833]

Liking the game so far. The combat, encounter designs, atmosphere, and world design are all really well done and enjoyable. The only real complaint I have so far is that the plot seems minimal to non-existent. I don't know if it'll pick up, but having the player start off by doing a bunch of MMO style collect-a-thons (ie catch 5 crickets, flip 5 light switches, etc) with no real motivation other than "oh well you're new to the station, best do some busy work" was a really poor decision. I am hoping the factions they've mentioned eventually lead to a more engaging narrative.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Liking the game so far. The combat, encounter designs, atmosphere, and world design are all really well done and enjoyable. The only real complaint I have so far is that the plot seems minimal to non-existent. I don't know if it'll pick up, but having the player start off by doing a bunch of MMO style collect-a-thons (ie catch 5 crickets, flip 5 light switches, etc) with no real motivation other than "oh well you're new to the station, best do some busy work" was a really poor decision. I am hoping the factions they've mentioned eventually lead to a more engaging narrative.

Factions add some depth. It's also a very different type of story telling than the overt narrative "cinematic"-style that's become commonplace. It's more setting reliant - you find out the story as you gain more exposure to the world. And there's multiple threads.

I prefer that over the "here are lines and lines of exposition and hackney writing to sit through so you get the story". It's minimalist - it relies on gameplay to tell the story rather than story and gameplay being distinct - which I think is what the medium of video games should strive for rather than either walls of text or cutscenes.

I'd say there are some compelling things that happen ~Junkyard, and post-Junkyard the world opens up and the narrative begins. The "new to the station fetch quest" shit may seem a little cliche, but I think you can (reasonably) view the pre-Junkyard issues as an extended tutorial that gets you familiar with the gameplay - which seems more apparent with the difficulty spike in Depot-A.

Then again, I'm an unrepentant fanboy, so take what I say with that in mind.

 

[Lhynn]

Yeah, the leveling curve has most definitely changed even (perhaps especially) on Oddity mode. I'd really rather have gone with traditional XP since I forewent both Lockpicking and Pickpocket this time around, but naturally I have to complete the new Oddity catalog... hopefully it can be completed without either of those two skills, just not as quickly.

You can also complete the oddity catalog in XP mode, oddities just give you a small boost to XP.

 

[Alfons]

ST'Ranger, respectfully, go fuck yourself. You need to follow your own advice if you think what you're doing is helpful. The pretentious stupidity that oozes from your posts is bewildering. I know the net option, and I stated that my guy will never have enough throwing to reliably hit Carnifex.

epeli, the difference is too extreme for that to be the case. I fought Carnifex about 6 times during the alpha, using different chars, but the same method. I was hitting him 3 out of 4 times with flashbangs. Now I hit 2 out of around 40, literally. Unless you are saying that the success of the flashbangs or the taser stun is governed by a specific skill then I don't see what levels have to do with this topic.

 

[Blaine]

You can also complete the oddity catalog in XP mode, oddities just give you a small boost to XP.

Ah right, forgot about that.

 

[Infinitron]

News coverage! http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/12/23/underrail-post-apocalyptic-rpg/

 

[GrainWetski]

Styg can now expect angry posts about how there are more than 2 genders and how the game lacks gamepad support.

 

[Fry]

Eh... in a world where most people get their video game news from IGN and will never hear of Underrail, I find it hard to complain about RPS.

 

[Blaine]

Styg can now expect angry posts about how there are more than 2 genders and how the game lacks gamepad support.

Also, there are 52 male portraits but only 24 female portraits (somewhere around there), and your character has to be white.

In fact, I've already seen complaints about this on Steam. The skin color bit may be a fair point, since I think a simple detailed palette swap should suffice given the resolution of the sprites, but then again who gives a shit?

 

[epeli]

Alfons I am not doubting you. Could be that he was buffed, or perhaps the overall chance to resist effects was tweaked. Most attacks and debuffs hit/miss on a skill vs skill basis, but I am not 100% sure about flashbangs and tasers. Theirs could be fortitude vs throwing and fortitude vs quality of the taser (in other words, electronics skill) respectively.

 

[Fry]

Styg can now expect angry posts about how there are more than 2 genders and how the game lacks gamepad support.

Also, there are 52 male portraits but only 24 female portraits (somewhere around there), and your character has to be white.

I recall lots of non-white portraits, but I guess it's not actually reflected in-game if you pick a dark skinned character? That's more a MUH IMMERSION issue than anything else. Seems like it shouldn't be hard to fix.

 

[Nines]

Is it worth picking snooping feat early on? What are the most useful technology skills?

 

[Lhynn]

Is it worth picking snooping feat early on?

If you got decent per, maybe to round up to a good score and not miss anything, especially mines and traps, etc. if you dumped Per, just skip it.

 

[Blaine]

Snooping only helps with finding concealed doors and so on, and has no effect on Detection or finding traps.

Personally I feel that it perhaps should assist in finding traps, if only because there seems to be no real alternative to finding traps (without high Traps skill and/or high Perception) other than bumbling into them or carpet bombing.