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Ultima VII is surprisingly good, but...

nomask7

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...why didn't they use a readable alphabet for the place names on the map? Is there a map like that/where can I get it?

Also, the game seems just as linear as any Final Fantasy in terms of plot. Exploration is meh. Killed a red dragon at level 6 (with two party members iirc and without having trained them much but with good equipment). Level scaling?

I noticed once or twice that trying to find NPCs can be frustrating. M&M 6 type camera gives a much better idea of the game world than the cleithrophobic view of U7. (On the other hand, the game was designed in 320x200, so I can't really use anything else with good conscience.)

Incidentally, I think M&M 6's game world is actually much larger. Just an impression I have.

The dialogue in U7 is somehow quite decent, even with the horrible thous and thys, or maybe (somehow) partly because of them.

Perhaps it's the merciless crappiness (it must be intentional) of most games I've played recently, but the story-telling and atmosphere, even the story itself, of U7 seem rather good and engaging.
 

Ammar

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nomask7 said:
...why didn't they use a readable alphabet for the place names on the map? Is there a map like that/where can I get it?

Better learn the alphabet if you want to continue playing Ultimas. In Ultima V for example you need to read some texts in game in that alphabet.

Also, the game seems just as linear as any Final Fantasy in terms of plot. Exploration is meh. Killed a red dragon at level 6 (with two party members iirc and without having trained them much but with good equipment). Level scaling?

Level 6 is pretty high already, considering it only goes to 8. Combat is meh anyway. There are some semi-tough enemies like the Stone Harpy, though. 'Dunno what you have against the exploration part, there is a lot to find. No Level Scaling.
And yes, the main story is somewhat linear.


Incidentally, I think M&M 6's game world is actually much larger. Just an impression I have.

Probably, but also much less interesting IMO.
 
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U6 has a pretty interesting world. The graphics, etc, are simpler, but apart from that it contains all the stuff from U7. U6 has better combat too.
 

Ammar

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Blackadder said:
U6 has a pretty interesting world. The graphics, etc, are simpler, but apart from that it contains all the stuff from U7. U6 has better combat too.

The Engine is terrible though. And U5 cöearly leads in the combat department.
 

nomask7

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There just doesn't seem to be much need or any sort of incentive for exploration. I expect to be sent to all the corners of the world anyway, and there's that voice asking me whether I really know where I'm going whenever I go somewhere that isn't part of the plot at the moment. Combat in Might & Magic VI was much more challenging, so there was more incentive to explore places. Since the plot was less linear, and the difficulty so high, exploration was actually a must. And there was pretty much everything you could think of, from icy mountains to tropical islands and places you could only water-walk or fly to. The "dungeons" were unique, varied and imaginative. And the exploration just felt more interesting at the time I played it, compared with U7. In fact, as with Ultima VII, I played it rather recently for the first time, and so there isn't any nostalgia involved in my estimation of MM6 either. In both games, there was much walking to do (in addition to cart riding and ship sailing).

I'll have to learn the alphabet though. I think I'm going to play the Lazarus version of Ultima V next.
 
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nomask7 said:
There just doesn't seem to be much need or any sort of incentive for exploration. I expect to be sent to all the corners of the world anyway, and there's that voice asking me whether I really know where I'm going whenever I go somewhere that isn't part of the plot at the moment. Combat in Might & Magic VI was much more challenging, so there was more incentive to explore places. Since the plot was less linear, and the difficulty so high, exploration was actually a must. And there was pretty much everything you could think of, from icy mountains to tropical islands and places you could only water-walk or fly to. The "dungeons" were unique, varied and imaginative. The exploration felt more interesting at the time I played it. In fact, as with Ultima VII, I played it rather recently, and so there isn't any nostalgia involved in my estimation of MM6 either. In both games, there was much walking to do (in addition to cart riding and ship sailing).

I'll have to learn the alphabet though. I think I'm going to play the Lazarus version of Ultima V next.

Play Lazarus if you must (it is fun), but at least try the Amiga or commodore 128 version of Ultima 5. Seriously. Lazarus is really good for people who cannot stand turn based combat, or old graphics; you seem to be able to stand that, and U5 has quaint sprites and a nice, easy to use system. I think you would enjoy it. And the alphabet can be gotten by downloading a copy of the U5 manual and printing the page off. It isn't that hard really. My first copy of U5 was a pirated 64 version, and I managed to decode the alphabet myself by using the mantras from Ultima 4 as my basis.

If you enjoy the U6 engine, I strongly suggest getting copies of Savage Empire and Martian Dreams, both of which are excellent games.
 

nomask7

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I suppose I'll have to try U5 in its original form, as well as those other games you mentioned.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
One guy in school gave me the original disk version of Ultima: The Second Trilogy for free because he found it at home and knows I like old games and doesn't need it anymore. I got something that's worth 50 dollars on ebay for free. It's awesome.
 
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there's one thing about ultima 7, is that all the new RPGs they release now tries to achieve what U7 already did years ago. And better.
 

Silellak

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Darth Slaughter said:
there's one thing about ultima 7, is that all the new RPGs they release now tries to achieve what U7 already did years ago. And better.

Yeah, I've noticed that too, especially with Oblivion, and it's depressing to see no one can get it right.

They only realm qualm I have with Ultima 7 is the combat. It is pretty bland, and basically revolves around going into combat mode and hoping the random flailings of your party bring down whoever is randomly flailing back at them.

I agree that the exploration is one of the strongest points, as well. There's just so much little crap to find, and some of it is very worth it. Hoe of Destruction, anyone?

By the way, OP, do you have Forge of Virtue installed? You probably do, but I figured I'd ask. It has a nice little sub-plot in it, though you may not fully appreciate it without having played Ultima 1-3, or at least Ultima 3.
 

Andhaira

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@OP: You are playing the ULTIMATE crpg! Yes combat is flawed but its still fun. Keep in mind that the game you are playing is SIXTEEN YEARS OLD!

And yet you have weather effects (which affects gameplay), an increadible magic system, world changin spells (weather control for example) and an INTERFACE FREE game! In 1992!

You can ride horses, own and ride a cart, own and sail a ship, and even a magic carpet. (though i wasn't a fan of the carpet)

There are TONS of little secrets to find. Secret levers, places accessable only at night, different ways to different stuff, etc.

I would STRONGLY recommend AGAINST the Forge of Virtue expansion. It contains the UBER black sword (cough stormbringer cough) that breaks the game.

Oh and btw you can bake bread in this game!
 

St. Toxic

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Ultima VII? Isn't that a mod for Ultima IX?

AndhairaX said:
Oh and btw you can bake bread in this game!

Well, shit in a bucket, grease me up and call me Luke Skywalker! I think we have a winner.
 

mondblut

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AndhairaX said:
Yes combat is flawed but its still fun. Keep in mind that the game you are playing is SIXTEEN YEARS OLD!

There are 25 years old games whose combat is infuckingfinitely better.

and an INTERFACE FREE game!

Is that something to be proud of?
 
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One of the things that amazed me in ultima 7 was the shitload of functional items... I mean, normally useless items and the NPCs.

You could make clothes, bake breads, forge weapons... and NPCs could do that too. The baker wouyld make bread. Clothiers would make clothes.

It wasn't like oblivion when they just pretend to be working.

Oh, and lots of citizens would go to the fellowship meetings. then would go home.

The themes were adult... Not adult in the meaning of having boobs, but things like crime scene investigation, conspiracy plots, an some simple side quests, like the one you have to follow paterson after fellowship meetings to another girl house to screw her hidden from his wife.

It's not anything like go there and discover that he is a vampire... I was a more mundane problem.

the gothic series came almost close... almost.

And the casino in buccaneer's den, you could try to cheat. You could choose the number in the roulette, pick a rat.

the "wow" moments were great: Alagner send you to recover a diary, when you get back, he is dead by butcherous means.

There were crippled people. Npcs had lots of uniqueness with their portraits, they weren't like lots of "look alikes"

Dungeons: they were very much similar, but they had sometimes dificult puzzles. And I remember directions were given by NPCs, you didn't have pointers or compasses. You should find thing on your own by exploration. Sometimes, You would be on a dungeon but not sure if that would be the one you wanted to be. This would disguise the linearity of the game.

Sometimes a party member would utter the name of the dungeon on it's entrance, but sometimes, due to some bug, that wouldn't happen.

It took account on previous ultima games, so, if you played before, you would know where the dungeons and major cities would be located.

The idea of magic being affected is great too, the mages getting insane.

And I love the legend that the evil in this game referenced EA by having a cube, sphere and a tetrahedron as keys to release the guardian. That was Eletronic Arts logo. And Elizabeth and Abrahams, heads of the fellowship, an evil church, have EA as initials.

The combat is flawed, but it's not game breaking. At least it was fun to see an NPC runnig away and leaving his items on the ground in porder to run faster...

If you look at what developers say when they are "selling" their new RPG, the aways talk about the big world (Cyrodiil, Myrtana), the interactive world (Havok phisics), the NPC schedules (Radiant AI? Npcs that go home at night), Top-Notch story (idiot boy becomes the one).

Well, they're aways sounding as if they are making a new ultima 7, Although they never mention the game ultima 7, probably in fear that people would discover they're deceiving us. Their ideas about those aspects above are very narrow. Ultima 7 did almost everything well.

It had bugs, missing content (things that plagues almost every RPGs) ... but it was great anyway.
 

made

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AndhairaX said:
And yet you have weather effects (which affects gameplay)

How did weather affect gameplay? Can't seem to remember anything to that effect.
 

elander_

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After reading this article:

http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,31/

In particular this page that talks about how awesome Ultima 7 was:

Ultima 7: Black Gate and Serpent Isle

* Ultima 7: Black Gate (1992)
* Ultima 7: Serpent Isle (1993)

This is the peak of Ultima design. It is also the last "real" simulated world game for a long time. The games surrounding it (surrounding as in before and after) were either dungeon crawlers or Event Horizon games. Some had a nicely moving plot and NPC interaction, and some did not. While with some RPGs you already knew to expect a satisfying story, none of these stories were really above your typical pulp fiction. Ultima 7 does not tell a story, instead it is about the people; living, breathing, realistic people.

An element where Ultima 7 was not matched is in the way it brings life to its world. It is the first RPG project to have professional scriptwriter brought on board; Raymond Benson directed the writing process. I figure it is him the honors of this social approach belong to. Every single NPC is written as an individual. No, there is not that much text, it is just written that convincingly. And unlike Ultima 6, NPCs really say different things depending on where to you talk to them. Also, the game uses its world to portray social problems like the class war, social tensions between rich and the poor, a well-fed conservative familiy making the life of a single mom difficult – things like that. It does abandon the virtues but is therefore more mature than any game released before or after.

Also, God appeared to me when I was sleeping and he had this to say about Ultima 7.

"I want Ultima 7 to be rediscovered amongst the RPG crowd - designers and players. When it comes to the social aspect of it, U7's world is the most realistic game world out there. It is not realistic because its lore is so complicated (Morrowind) nor is it realistic because you have NPCs bumping around (Gothic, Oblivion). It is realistic because every NPC is given life through combining writing and scheduling (that put the Gothic series and Oblivion to shame). They were written into human beings. And they were written to affect the persons around them. And thus you see things like conservative rich family making life difficult for the single mom and her son, two beggars spending their days around in bitterness and world-hating, a father killing his daughter's best friend because she was not human, social tensions between the rich and poor, tensions between the poor and poor, outcasts of the society trying to fit into this cruel world, a man cheating on his wife with a young religious girl and so on. Ultima isn't realistic because of its game mechanics, lore or graphics. It is realistic because of its human values, because the game world is filled with humans. They lie, they hurt, they laugh, they do random acts of kindness, they fuck around like animals, they live, they enjoy simple things, etc - Ultima 7 realized the importance of the human heart and used it. It is not perfect, but there is no reason to leave this thing in the 90's and never perfect it. There is a lot to learn from Ultima 7 and much of it could improve current games."
It's God's favorite game and that should say a lot.
Also, it is the first RPG to have weather effects like rain or snow, and the level of interactivity is only just being matched by the later Elder Scrolls games. Even Oblivion does not allow you to change babies' diapers just for the sake of it.

I paid special attention to the bold text. The reason why they can't make games with the quality of Ultima7 anymore seems quite clear. It's because of professional scriptwriters big egos that don't let the Todds and Petes of the games business improve games. LOL
 

nomask7

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Does anyone change babies' diapers "just for the sake of it"? I mean in the real world. (Not that I don't agree with the article to some extent.)
 

BehindTimes

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nomask7 said:
Does anyone change babies' diapers "just for the sake of it"? I mean in the real world. (Not that I don't agree with the article to some extent.)

The point isn't that you'd want to, rather, that you can. Honestly, to me, Ultima VII is the best CRPG I've played, and it's a shame that RPGs since have been multiple steps backwards.

Of course it's not perfect, but unfortunately, no ones bothered to make something anywhere close to U7 to even start worrying about where U7 had flaws.

Now onto another subject, that EBay listing. Reserves are extremely stupid. I won't sell unless I make $X. Well, if what you want is $X, then why not make the minimum $X? I prefer how they handled StubHub. No reserves, and if you happen to get lowballed for a listing, then it's your own fault for not listing it higher.
 
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BehindTimes said:
nomask7 said:
Does anyone change babies' diapers "just for the sake of it"? I mean in the real world. (Not that I don't agree with the article to some extent.)

The point isn't that you'd want to, rather, that you can. Honestly, to me, Ultima VII is the best CRPG I've played, and it's a shame that RPGs since have been multiple steps backwards.

Of course it's not perfect, but unfortunately, no ones bothered to make something anywhere close to U7 to even start worrying about where U7 had flaws.

Now onto another subject, that EBay listing. Reserves are extremely stupid. I won't sell unless I make $X. Well, if what you want is $X, then why not make the minimum $X? I prefer how they handled StubHub. No reserves, and if you happen to get lowballed for a listing, then it's your own fault for not listing it higher.

But...but the point of doing it at ebay is that you can. ;)

I enjoyed Ultima 7, and think they put a lot of work into it, but the combat seriously did my head in with that game. It could have been beautiful...

All the added extras, etc, were quite nice. As was the atmosphere. U6 (or the spinoffs) or U5 will remain my favourite Ultima game. I cannot choose between them as both engines and games had different advantages over the other.
 

nomask7

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BehindTimes said:
nomask7 said:
Does anyone change babies' diapers "just for the sake of it"? I mean in the real world. (Not that I don't agree with the article to some extent.)
The point isn't that you'd want to, rather, that you can.
I guess the point of such details is to add to the immersion factor, but there comes a point when I'd rather they had spent their time coming up a with a couple of details that mean something instead of many that have no effect on anything. I might consider changing diapers if, say, the baby died otherwise (someone threw him in the river because of the crying/noise) and the death affected the game world in some serious way. I don't care much for lots of details that have no significance and that I rarely even notice because of that very same reason (no need to notice them).
 

nomask7

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In short, I'm more into games than into attempts at alternative worlds that some call games.
 

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