Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[gman42]

Out of curiosity, I checked out the CRPG Addict's articles on Wizardry 6 to check out the screenshots. You're telling me the entire fucking GAME consists of grey motherfucking bricks? For fuck's sake, I was looking forward to getting out of this fucking mountain and going to that forest, but now I know that the forest is ALSO grey fucking bricks. Holy shit. They should've just made this game wireframe like Wiz1. At least then I can use my imagination.

Wiz6 is weird, it's both a quantum leap ahead of the DOS Wizardries, and a huge technical disappointment at the same time. Hey, just be happy you can, like, see that a staircase is a staircase and a fountain is a fountain, and you don't have to wait until you step on some featureless white floor-square to find out what's going on (complete with big blocky messages split into little chunks with "Press RET _|" at the end of each one).

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Restarted my Wiz6 playthrough because I was, for some strange reason, under the impression that buff and debuff spells were more useful for my spellcasters than knock-knock and identify

 

[Desiderius]

Welp I just wrote a book (going over every level) about how good the Psi Spellbook is on an actual Psi and my son nuked it while I was watching the game. As far as beating Resists, which is what matters on Expert, Bard is about halfway between Monk and Psi while Bish is about halfway between Bard and Psi. If you've only played Psi spellbook on a Monk it's an entirely different experience getting your spells way earlier with higher power levels, caster level, Psi bonus (the main advantage over Bish), and Power Cast. Psi, Wiz/Div Bish (with one Mage level to get Schools rolling since no downside), INT/SEN Ranger (max DEX at character creation then leave it there, don't need Reflextion, and this levels up Myth very fast naturally to attack weak resists) w/Power Cast + Pot brewing is about the perfect caster lineup, leaving you with room for Sword/Shield/Bow Fighter, Bard, and Gadge. Make Vi a Divine Caster (Rest All battery) and leave other RPC as a wildcard.

Psi edges out Mage since Psi-only Mental nukes bypass Elemental Shield on Rapax, but it's got great utility all game as long as you use it to Heal to train Divine and pick up the 3rd level Fire spells from Umpani direct from Monastery. Also want Impaling Stones for Gadge, easy EXP, and maybe Saxx. Mage1/Bish is good enough on early/midgame Wiz/Div control spells (Freeze Flesh, Noxious Fumes, and Web).

You can even get there on STR/INT Mook Psi with Staff if you want.

 

[Desiderius]

Okay rusty_shackleford I'll rewrite the book for you when I get the time. Hate for you to miss out.

 

[notpl]

As far as I know, the school-specific skill bonus has no bearing on your ability to pierce resists. Spellpower is determined by caster level (overwhelmingly this - this is why bishops will always be outperformed by pure casters, every mechanic in wiz 8 checks level before anything else. every level difference between you and an enemy is essentially +10 to all their resists), the innate level of the spell, the power level you're casting at (which is mainly determined by realm skill, not school skill), and, believe it or not, the mana cost of the spell. Literally, spells that cost more mana pierce resists more strongly.

Basically, if you're going to use a bishop as your offensive caster, then make sure the rest of your party is all hybrids/advanced classes. If your bishop is noticeably behind the rest of the party in levels, as will be the case if you have them mixed with a bunch of fighters/rogues/pure mages, then your bishop will never be able to land CC spells as he will be 2-3 levels below all the monsters scaled to your party.

 

[Desiderius]

As far as I know, the school-specific skill bonus has no bearing on your ability to pierce resists. Spellpower is determined by caster level (overwhelmingly this - this is why bishops will always be outperformed by pure casters, every mechanic in wiz 8 checks level before anything else. every level difference between you and an enemy is essentially +10 to all their resists), the innate level of the spell, the power level you're casting at (which is mainly determined by realm skill, not school skill), and, believe it or not, the mana cost of the spell. Literally, spells that cost more mana pierce resists more strongly.

Basically, if you're going to use a bishop as your offensive caster, then make sure the rest of your party is all hybrids/advanced classes. If your bishop is noticeably behind the rest of the party in levels, as will be the case if you have them mixed with a bunch of fighters/rogues/pure mages, then your bishop will never be able to land CC spells as he will be 2-3 levels below all the monsters scaled to your party.

Never is a long time. Mage1/Bish will be able to fill the gaps with control spells when it matters (early/midgame) then switch to utility/nukes late. School specific skill level (Psionics for Psionicist) is what allows Pure Caster to cast full PL lvl 7 spells on Green (Bishop can't) and either unlocks higher PLs throughout the game or gives you more green circles (can't remember which) so Pure Caster will be casting higher lvl spells more reliably earlier than other classes. Only question is if you want Mage or Psi and Psi offers more unique angles of attack. And Mage bonus to Realm skills for Bishop makes it a better fit there with Psi taking full caster role. Alch also is fun for variety.

 

[Ysaye]

Out of curiosity, I checked out the CRPG Addict's articles on Wizardry 6 to check out the screenshots. You're telling me the entire fucking GAME consists of grey motherfucking bricks? For fuck's sake, I was looking forward to getting out of this fucking mountain and going to that forest, but now I know that the forest is ALSO grey fucking bricks. Holy shit. They should've just made this game wireframe like Wiz1. At least then I can use my imagination.

The Super Nintendo version adds three different wall tile sets; Castle, Forest and Cave and the SATURN version uses assets from Wiz7 (but does not have an English translation).

 

[Humbaba]

How about we run Desiderius out of this thread, because all he posts is useless drivel. He types alot without saying anything of value and the few takes he does have are hot trash (psionicist being as good as bard, tanking etc.). Not to mention he still thinks that there's such a thing called "multiclassing".

 

[coldcrow]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

 

[notpl]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

 

[coldcrow]

That is true. Forgot about them, mostly because I almost never used them.
Edit: I brushed up on the formulas, and Bard/Gadg-lvl has an influence on successfully using the gizmos. So specific levels matter past 18.

 

[octavius]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

I assume Wiz8, like 6 and 7, uses the character level in all combat calculations (which is a point in favour on not class changing too much in 6 at least)? But which character level? Lets say a character is lvl 18 Bard and lvl 5 Monk. Does is use 18 in the calculations, or 22 or 23?

 

[Lukifell]

I always thought Psionic was a nice class... But then I usually went with 3 STR/DEX polearm Dracon Fighters, 1 Bloodlust Rogue, and 2 support casters. (Like Bishop+Psi.) In this case, the Psi’s main purpose by mid / end game was spamming low rank pandemoniums for casters and stuff while the melees obliterated things.

 

[Poseidon00]

So what does the Samurai get out of that Mage level anyway? Does he get the innate bonus to Wizardry? Can this be taken beyond level 1? I'm running a samurai for my first complete playthrough, but if it's too late to benefit from it i'm not restarting. I've trained his magic to competent levels for my place in the game as it is.

 

[notpl]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

I assume Wiz8, like 6 and 7, uses the character level in all combat calculations (which is a point in favour on not class changing too much in 6 at least)? But which character level? Lets say a character is lvl 18 Bard and lvl 5 Monk. Does is use 18 in the calculations, or 22 or 23?

23. The only time class-specific level matters is for spellcasting, so your example character would count as a level 1 psion for the purpose of beating enemy resistances when casting Fear.

 

[coldcrow]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

I assume Wiz8, like 6 and 7, uses the character level in all combat calculations (which is a point in favour on not class changing too much in 6 at least)? But which character level? Lets say a character is lvl 18 Bard and lvl 5 Monk. Does is use 18 in the calculations, or 22 or 23?

Magic is entirely dependent on the level of the classes that give you the school. Specialists + Bishop + Hybrids > lvl 4. Same for Gadg/Bard chance of successfully casting. and every class has their respective level influencing # of attacks/swings/AR. Fighters/Hybrids are top, Rog/Gadg/Bard middle, and the rest at the bottom.
So total Clvl never matters in combat, only the sum of the derived attributes of the classes, but for determining world variables like monster/merchant inv spawns etc.

 

[notpl]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

I assume Wiz8, like 6 and 7, uses the character level in all combat calculations (which is a point in favour on not class changing too much in 6 at least)? But which character level? Lets say a character is lvl 18 Bard and lvl 5 Monk. Does is use 18 in the calculations, or 22 or 23?

Magic is entirely dependent on the level of the classes that give you the school. Specialists + Bishop + Hybrids > lvl 4. Same for Gadg/Bard chance of successfully casting. and every class has their respective level influencing # of attacks/swings/AR. Fighters/Hybrids are top, Rog/Gadg/Bard middle, and the rest at the bottom.
So total Clvl never matters in combat, only the sum of the derived attributes of the classes, but for determining world variables like monster/merchant inv spawns etc.

Total character level matters a shitload, it's an invisible modifier to everything, including your chance to hit and be hit. There's no "evasion" stat in wizardry 8, but you'll notice you miss high level monsters vastly more than lower level ones, for example, and the same is true when monsters swing at you.

It's also part of the spellpower calculation, separate from your caster level, which I didn't know until this discussion. So what I posted above is untrue: a bard 18/monk 5 will actually cast at a slightly higher power than a psion 1, since pure character level is one of the variables in the equation. And the total number of spells known per realm increases power as well, so a bishop has a huge advantage in spellpower by filling her spellbook versus a single-school caster - although total character level is more important, so I suspect a pure wizard will still always be stronger in his field.

 

[coldcrow]

Afaik it is NOT part of the spellpower formula.

Total character level matters only as the sum of the class levels. It does not matter for spellpower, only the total level of classes that give you the school matter.
Actual formula: 0,25*manaperpowerlvl+0,5*spelllvl+powerlvl+0,5*casterlvl = Spell Power. That gets inlcuded in the next formuals against the effective Resistance of the opponent (base res and monsterlvl are the variables there) resulting in a final modifier for the spelldmg roll. That modifier ONLY determines how much a spell is beating resistance. On top of that convoluted shit, the result can vary by a gaussian spread between -50% and +50%. There are NO negative resistances, so a spell never does more than max dmg possible (plvl * spell dice).

In all combat formulas it is never total Clvl, only the sum of specific classlvls influencing the derived attributes, like base attack rating and casterlvl etc. Ofc, if you have a single class fighter, total Clvl = fighter lvl. That might be the reason for the misunderstanding.

What this means for spellcasting is: Hybrids are doubled fucked, because they can only cast at low powerlvls and have -2 spellpower by default.

 

[notpl]

You're right, I was looking at the spell points formula, sorry.

However, I think you're kind of saying the same thing with combat formulas. Obviously fighter levels contribute to swings/accuracy more than bard levels, but if a bard 10/fighter 5 is more accurate and powerful than either a bard 10 or a fighter 5, then total level is important, wouldn't you agree? The point is, when dual-classing to fighter, a bard doesn't suddenly become weaker: he is only weaker than an equivalent pure fighter would be.

Also, I can't find anything to support it right now, but I could've sworn total (specifically, relative) character level was a huge part of status infliction, including instant death. So for example a fighter 15/monk 1 will instantly kill level 1 enemies very frequently, and a fighter 15/mage 1 will have a leg up over a mage 1 at inflicting basic CC spells against equal-level opponents, although obviously his odds are terrible either way.

 

[coldcrow]

Haha, read what I wrote: The sum matters! So ofc: AR(15*fig)>AR(10*bard+5*fig)>AR(15*bard) etc.

A fig15/mag1 has no adv. over a mag1 in spells if relevant attributes are equal.

It seems to be not clear on attack procs like crits/paralyze etc. Crit skills might only look at the class it gave you the skill. Regarding Weapon procs total Clvl regardless of the classes contributing might actually play a role. So I concede that point

If you take a look at the to-hit formula, you will notice the absence of clvl. Only effective AR vs. effective monster AC is taken into account. Of course highlvl monsters might have better ACs than lowlvl and a higher lvl Char has more AR.

 

[notpl]

Haha, read what I wrote: The sum matters! So ofc: AR(15*fig)>AR(10*bard+5*fig)>AR(15*bard) etc.

If you take a look at the to-hit formula, you will notice the absence of clvl. Only effective AR vs. effective monster AC is taken into account.

Right, but my point is that if effective AR is totaled from all class levels, then that's total character level. The initial question was if multiclassing made a character less effective in combat by using the new class level for calculations, which it does not except in cases where you are casting spells from a new spellbook. Combat power goes up every level even if you change classes ten levels in a row.

I assume Wiz8, like 6 and 7, uses the character level in all combat calculations (which is a point in favour on not class changing too much in 6 at least)? But which character level? Lets say a character is lvl 18 Bard and lvl 5 Monk. Does is use 18 in the calculations, or 22 or 23?

 

[coldcrow]

To sum it up: 'Twas a nice debate about semantics. We were basically saying the same.

 

[notpl]

Sic semper RPGs.

 

[Desiderius]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

There is no -1 for Bishop (if you start with Bishop lvl).

Don't talk about shit you don't know about. And nobody wants to be (or needs to be) grinding crabs.

So what does the Samurai get out of that Mage level anyway? Does he get the innate bonus to Wizardry? Can this be taken beyond level 1? I'm running a samurai for my first complete playthrough, but if it's too late to benefit from it i'm not restarting. I've trained his magic to competent levels for my place in the game as it is.

A substantial boost to 4 Realm Skills, which allows him to train them much faster. Which matters a lot since he can't afford much Piety. This facilitates the development of those skills through regular play instead of degenerate grinding.

 

[Desiderius]

99% of the multiclassing in wiz8 is done at the first level, and 95% of that is training stealth vs crabs.
The rest is just easing a training aspect for hybrids (Mag/Sam, etc). Multiclassing a bishop at first level makes absolutely zero sense, because the better single school is never worth -1 lvl to the other.

Gadgeteer and bard don't have any compelling reason to stay in-class after level 18 and should switch to ranger or fighter/rogue respectively if you want to juice their damage a bit.

This isn't the case. Steam forums have the whole code, go check there. They'll fill you in in ways that make me look terse.