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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

notpl

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Generally your little circle has to be touching an enemy for melee attacks to work, unless you have a reach weapon equipped. This is also true for enemies, but a lot of monsters have innate reach as a property of their claws or whatever. You're right that it's a weird and annoying system in a variety of ways, but that's also why we all remembered it for years and years and still talk about it.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Wizardry 8 is quite possibly the most annoying CRPG I've played.

I don't know if it's a bug or just malicious design/programming, but I'm getting mighty tired of my guys being "too far" away from enemies that are right in front of them, enemies that can hit my "too far away" guys with their own melee weapons.
If I use the move function all the enemies automatically get initiative. I dunno, either enemies in general have far superior initiative, or other rules apply to them. Well, other rules already apply since each enemy can move independently, while my guys are forced to move as a blob. So the enemies can move in front of allied spell casters, and when I try to attack the spell casters the attacks are "blocked!", but of course the blocked spell caster still can cast fireballs on my party despite the blockage.
It's a curious bastardized system of blobber and free moving, and with friendly fire apparently only applying to physical attacks.

The game is good, but it's also bloody annoying and both the combat system and character system make me feel hamstrung. All characters always get the same amount of skill points and they all have to distribute them in the same way, instead of spending them freely or having the fighter types get more skill points to spend on weapon skills and spell casters ditto on magic skills, which would have been more fun. But at least it's fun watching them numbers go up after combat.
Once I started putting a tanky dude or two in the front box things got a lot easier. You can learn to manage the Move to your advantage, as well as the terrain. The thing about Move tho is that after a Move characters act in party order (top left then top right, etc) according to the order in which you added them to the party regardless of initiative. That means RPCs always go first so good idea to let the RPCs handle the short range melee, and if you're going to bring a Sword and Board Fighter also train him up on a Bow because his melee targets are going to get stolen by the RPCs.

Extended Weapons are your guys are good, as are Ranged on Gadge, Bard, and Ranger who want Senses anyway.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Wizardry 8 is quite possibly the most annoying CRPG I've played.

I don't know if it's a bug or just malicious design/programming, but I'm getting mighty tired of my guys being "too far" away from enemies that are right in front of them, enemies that can hit my "too far away" guys with their own melee weapons.
If I use the move function all the enemies automatically get initiative. I dunno, either enemies in general have far superior initiative, or other rules apply to them. Well, other rules already apply since each enemy can move independently, while my guys are forced to move as a blob. So the enemies can move in front of allied spell casters, and when I try to attack the spell casters the attacks are "blocked!", but of course the blocked spell caster still can cast fireballs on my party despite the blockage.
It's a curious bastardized system of blobber and free moving, and with friendly fire apparently only applying to physical attacks.

The game is good, but it's also bloody annoying and both the combat system and character system make me feel hamstrung. All characters always get the same amount of skill points and they all have to distribute them in the same way, instead of spending them freely or having the fighter types get more skill points to spend on weapon skills and spell casters ditto on magic skills, which would have been more fun. But at least it's fun watching them numbers go up after combat.
Yeah, parts of it are very wonky. Tanking doesn't work in this game as a teamwork concept, because class mechanics don't really support it, but also because the engine has some weird ideas (like the fact that enemies can block los, but you never can, like you've already noticed). The idea is to use terrain as much as possible and have magic screen on at all times (p. much mandatory imo) and preferably armorplate, too (not strictly necessary, but very very nice). In-game buffs are dependent on what you're fighting, but having someone capable of elemental shielding your party at a decent die is a very good idea when fighting something like faeries.

Yes, when you use move/run, enemies will always go first. That's why you use it to lure them to you instead of wasting turns, since stocking on ranged chars is generally not something you want to do and letting the enemies come to you to start chopping after they move and you cancel your move command is p. much always better than doing anything else (and you can order your chars to cast buffs before clicking move and it will fire off when you cancel, anyway).

I also don't recall what's your party composition. All classes are fun and useful imo, but doing certain setups can definitely sour the experience on your first run. Like getting a lot of ranged chars, not having a decent divinity caster or trying to go for a throwing ninja.

Oh, and correcting one of the most standard bad wiz8 advice: never give backup ranged weapons for your dedicated melee toons. The gains you get from doing so are negligible while the logistical problems get quite serious. Plus, you typically want to use some cursed weapons, because they tend to be very good.
 

octavius

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I found out that a Ranger was not that mandatory, so I restarted.
Using my imported characters my party is:
Rawulf Lord
Fairy Ninja
Dwarf Valkyrie
Felpur Monk -> Bard (five instruments imported)
Mook Samurai-> Gadgeteer
Elf Samurai

Biggest weakness is lack of the Mage protection spells. I could have turned one of the Samurais into a Mage instead, I guess.
I like the idea of Ninja throwers, since a hit will always penetrate unlike their melee attacks.
 

octavius

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Another rage inducing moment in Wiz 8, where enemies can attack through trees, but you can't.
hdiMebN.jpg
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Well, I'd say that part is... questionable for the first playthrough, but not like it won't work. Bard and divinity casters are core stuff for newbies so it's good that you have them covered. I'd definitely take either fighter or a rogue for quick development and reliable killing power and mage for freezing spell and early enchanted blade + missile shield and elemental shield if need be. Gagdies are sucky early game, samurais require meta to be really good and are rather squishy for a frontliner while throwing ninjas are cool in theory, but in practice there is a severe lack of throwing weapons and the ones are there are not very good.

Ranger is one of the least flashy classes in the game, but scouting is very good for a first playthrough and they would give you an easier access to alchemy than ninja (spells are not the important part here, but early potion mixing is).
 

Darth Roxor

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Ranger is one of the least flashy classes in the game

Personally I find rangers very strong due to their ranged criticals, especially since they scale off Ranged Combat rather than Critical Strike. Not to mention the bows and arrows have decent %kill chances by themselves, so a ranger starts reliably instakilling dudes already in the midgame.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Strong compared to...? And I've never found "reliably instakilling" to be an actual thing, maybe for lower level mob that's not really an issue anyways. But two main things that discourage me are the early game suckage and the huge logistical problems you get later on while fang, giant sword, staff of doom et al go brrrrrr with no strings attached.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I like throwing ninjas a lot, but I will admit to restscumming the shop in Arnika on occasion to stock up on shurikens.

So the enemies can move in front of allied spell casters, and when I try to attack the spell casters the attacks are "blocked!", but of course the blocked spell caster still can cast fireballs on my party despite the blockage.
I don't get this. You can still fireball them right back, can't you? You're also protecting your own spellcasters in the same way with your formation. It's true that enemies don't play by the same rules as the party does, but I can't relate to some of these problems.

I'm getting mighty tired of my guys being "too far" away from enemies that are right in front of them, enemies that can hit my "too far away" guys with their own melee weapons.
Extended reach weapons exist, and some enemies have them. They're as handy for your party as they are for them, though. Lets your dudes on the flanks or in the middle hit the same targets as the front line, or lets your front line hit those pesky spellcasters. You'll generally have to take at least one move action towards the beginning of combat to orient your party correctly anyway, so if that's enough to ruin you, you might be underleveled for the place you're in.
 

notpl

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Samurai is honestly just a bad class in wiz 8. Wiz is a tough spellbook to try to hybridize into with its spells being extremely dangerous to miscast and useless at low power, by the time he comes online alchemy completely dominates the playing field and you won't be bothering with wizardry anyway, the class has no piety requirement so it'll end with no SP for most racial picks, and their equipment restrictions and terrible unique ability make them the worst dedicated melee class in the game.
 
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Zboj Lamignat

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Wow, hot take post considering the fact that wizardry is clearly the second best spell school for hybrids (and it's not like alchemy and psionics come even close) and better than alchemy in general for vast majority of the game plus samurai's specials (flat bonus to the best weapon category by far, amazing special attack and immunity to one of the most common and irritating status effects) are arguably the best in the entire roster, but in the very top for sure.

Edit: Although samurai definitely has its issues and is not a top tier class in general.
 

LarryTyphoid

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It would be nice if I didn't have to slowly scroll through the menu to try every key I have on every single locked door every time I get one
 

octavius

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So how viable is it to start with a Priest and Mage and change them to Lord/Valk and Samurai once their spell casting ablities are satisfactory? Will combat calculations treat them as lvl 1 characters, as the highest level of the two classes, or combined?
 

Darth Canoli

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I don't know if it's a bug or just malicious design/programming, but I'm getting mighty tired of my guys being "too far" away from enemies that are right in front of them, enemies that can hit my "too far away" guys with their own melee weapons.

That"s why extended weapons are so powerful, close combat ones show more damage but they can't reach anyone half the time at least, the only reason to have one is on a thief (for backstab) or a fighter (for berserk) when you're about to fight really strong enemies or hp sponges.
Still, one is enough, none at all is better.


I found out that a Ranger was not that mandatory, so I restarted.
Using my imported characters my party is:
Rawulf Lord
Fairy Ninja
Dwarf Valkyrie
Felpur Monk -> Bard (five instruments imported)
Mook Samurai-> Gadgeteer
Elf Samurai

Biggest weakness is lack of the Mage protection spells. I could have turned one of the Samurais into a Mage instead, I guess.
I like the idea of Ninja throwers, since a hit will always penetrate unlike their melee attacks.

The Ranger is great because of Ranged crits and focusing on a ranged weapon (I usually put him in the back of the formation), he always fights with a ranged weapon, which means you don't have to increase his other weapon skills and he will shoot enemy mages from afar.

The Samuraï is a mixed bag, I love lightning strike but I've read it proc more often when you don't use magic at all (probably only in combat but I'm not sure) and I've noticed Samurai "mages" don't lightning strike often myself.

Gadgeteer and Bard are great but you don't need both, they more or less do the same things.
Of course, If you don't want to pick a mage, maybe it's a good idea to pick both of them.

A wizard is mandatory, in my opinion, on your first Wiz 8 playthrough, you'll get swarmed and his mass debufs are required, even if the bard or the gadgeteer get some, they require the gadget or instrument and they're heavy, particularly the gadget so they can't keep them all in their inventory, it's even more true for the gadgeteer because his projectiles are way too heavy.

A monk with an extended weapon shines from mid-game, A Valkyrie with a polearm is quite good but you can recruit Vi pretty early.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
So how viable is it to start with a Priest and Mage and change them to Lord/Valk and Samurai once their spell casting ablities are satisfactory? Will combat calculations treat them as lvl 1 characters, as the highest level of the two classes, or combined?
Mage lvl really helps Sam get his Realms going, especially since he can’t afford much Piety. Best way I’ve found to work it in is to hold Sam at lvl four until exiting Monastery then taking a Mage level at lvl five and back to Sam at six. That way you’ve got a chance to get your weapon skill up 1-4 so you can reliably hit things (to keep skills going up naturally).

A Priest level doesn’t benefit Lord in the same way so probably isn’t worth it. Mage level is *really* good for Bishop since there’s no downside.

Sam problem is two-fold:

Wiz might be a good spellbook but a lot of the good spells need to beat resists which depends heavily on caster lvl (Sam is -4) and Spell Level, which Sam is also late to get to both due to slower progression and difficulty in training Realms because obligatory low Piety.

Second thing is its stuck with Short Range melee (outside of Giant Sword and Mook Sam has it’s own issues) so it gets a good bit of its melee practice stolen my RPCs. Theoretically you could rush to Tantris and train him up (he does go to Rapax areas) to get around this but yeah probably not worth it.

If you’re determined to play a Sam either play without RPCs or turn Val into a caster (Rest All is a great spell) and throw Powders and Bombs with Saxx or something. In general classes that rely on Critical Strike are better the smaller your party is since relative level is such a big part of the Crit equation, so in a RPCless four-man Sam will have a chance to be really good.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
If your Ranger sux early that’s a you problem. Give him Doubleshot/Hunter’s ASAP then switch back to Bow once you get Haste (and Venom Arrows) and you’ll be good/low maintenance. I like to unlock Power Cast/Eagle Eye ASAP on Ranger which also gets Mythology cooking. Really need Power Cast to overcome -4 Caster level on Expert.
 

notpl

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Wow, hot take post considering the fact that wizardry is clearly the second best spell school for hybrids (and it's not like alchemy and psionics come even close) and better than alchemy in general for vast majority of the game plus samurai's specials (flat bonus to the best weapon category by far, amazing special attack and immunity to one of the most common and irritating status effects) are arguably the best in the entire roster, but in the very top for sure.

Edit: Although samurai definitely has its issues and is not a top tier class in general.
Second-best is another way of saying third worst, since non-divine hybrid is just a bad idea period. The monk is much better at casting than the samurai, though, since he has a piety requirement and psionics scales off of a useful combat attribute instead of intelligence, and psionics focuses very heavily on a single realm that's easy to raise up to acceptable levels. The samurai will never cast any spell to effect in combat without absurd grind sessions - which, hey, if that's your bag I'm not going to dispute it, wiz 8 is very freeform and being able to grind up useless classes is part of its appeal.

"Amazing special attack" is just ridiculous, though. Lightning strike is a terrible ability, with at most a 12% chance of triggering (based on level, so for most of the game it's much lower than this) and only on turns where you have attacked the same monster twice in a row. How often does an enemy survive a round in melee with the party to receive a second set of attacks from the samurai? Compared to fighter berserk and knockout or rogue backstab there's no contest.
 
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Zboj Lamignat

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Yeah, I've seen multiple revelations on how this (and other) stuff works exactly in wiz8 and none of it seems to be accurate in practice. The point is that, while unreliable, it deals tremendous damage when it triggers and for me it always happens more regularly than fighter's ko and, tbh, often more than instakills on enemies that matter (although critting nessie is admittedly much cooler). And other samurai's bonuses are top notch, particularly sword skill bonus. The problems with the class are squishiness, getting pigeonholed into tw swords and the fact that weaboo equipment is a pain to get and requires meta.

Second-best is another way of saying third worst, since non-divine hybrid is just a bad idea period. The monk is much better at casting than the samurai, though, since he has a piety requirement and psionics scales off of a useful combat attribute instead of intelligence, and psionics focuses very heavily on a single realm that's easy to raise up to acceptable levels. The samurai will never cast any spell to effect in combat without absurd grind sessions - which, hey, if that's your bag I'm not going to dispute it, wiz 8 is very freeform and being able to grind up useless classes is part of its appeal.
Monk is not going to be a better caster without going out of your way to make it so precisely because he has nothing to practice on both when it comes to viability and usefulness. For wizardry you just pump a couple of level ups to get e. blade, m. shield and group freeze and that's it. You're done. You have perfect spells to raise your skills on that, at the same time, individually bring more value than entirety what psionics and alchemy have to offer in early to mid game for a hybrid. Not to mention not being replicated anywhere else (except for freeze, but that's much later on).
 

notpl

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What? He has the entire psionic library. Insanity is one of the most useful spells in the game, not to mention all the work he'll get out of identify. Heal wounds? And while it doesn't matter much for a veteran, playing blind without Detect Secrets is madness. And all of these things scale off of two realms, which is why the monk can actually LAND insanity. For grinding he has charm and divine trap, but for raising in combat he's not in any worse a position than another caster.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the monk is one of the stronger casting hybrids. The only reason it never occurred to me is because nobody ever runs psions in the first place, so the idea of replacing a psion with a monk entirely has no special appeal.
 
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Humbaba

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Once I started putting a tanky dude or two in the front box things got a lot easier.
Complete moron, there's no tanking in wizardry 6, 7 or 8, there are enough enemies in the game that can reach your backline to the point where putting a meatslab in front has little to no use. Doubly true in 8, since at times enemies can just get around your supposed tank. This is why you take only hard hitting classes and focus on damage. Your bard is supposed to be the only weak point in your blob, if even that.
 

notpl

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Also, unrelated to this discussion, the Wizardry 8 Expanded mod's new content continues to be dogshit. All of his new areas are dominated by boss encounters with enemies literally level 30+, I even found one level 40. Despite modding wiz 8 since he was a child apparently this dipshit never figured out how spell resistance is calculated or thought about why Wiz 8 implemented level scaling in the first place, since a level difference of 10 or more between an enemy and the party means magic/music/gadgets of any kind will literally have no effect. Of course, this might be intentional, but that's so stupid I can't even assume it about someone I don't respect.

So far, the only way I've found to beat any of his ridiculous muchkin encounters is to summon a robot with the gadgeteer (hideously overpowered new gadget), cast Razor Cloak on it, and stand behind it buffing/healing to keep it alive while enemies commit suicide against it, since razor cloak is one of the only damage sources in the game that is totally un-mitigatable. Riveting stuff.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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What? He has the entire psionic library.
Which is the most skippable school (literally ONE essential spell, cucked out of it hard by bard) that brings p. much nothing to the table for a hybrid, unless someone sees shift-q'ing for a single dice heal as value.
Insanity is one of the most useful spells in the game
Oh no, it's one of them insanity memers. It's overrated and unreliable, mass freeze just blows it out of the water. Plus, of course, cucked out of it early and hard by bard.
playing blind without Detect Secrets is madness
Oh god, please tell me stories on how are you keeping detect secrets on at most times with a monk (while getting "all the work" from gems like identify at the same time). Not to mention that if you want this spell reliably you go gadgie, of course.
For grinding he has charm
Literally like a post or two ago you were saying about stupid grinding with useless spells or something to that effect. Not to mention that, yeah, you guessed it - cucked out of it early and hard.
 

Humbaba

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In his defense, many things are highly resistant to freeze and insanity makes a good substitute in those cases. But for those things you have a bard.
 

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