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The Rise and Fall of the Personal Quest

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
In short, they don't look at older games.
Game designers never seem to. This is why solved problems that were long since resolved in previous games continue to resurface over and over. Take shitty pathfinding. This is a recurrent problem in games. There is absolutely no reason for this: Pathfinding is a solved problem that has been done correctly in games of the past already. Shitty netcode is another one: GOOD, correctly working netcode was done AGES ago, and yet people continue to repeat shitty mistakes despite the fact that the correct solution is already available. People just aren't into learning from the past. Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it.

Yeah, that is what kills me. In the early years of MMOs, I looked off to the future thinking "with all the stuff they are learning in these releases, later games are going to be amazing!" only to see them completely disregard lessons learned and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
I'm not trolling, you just don't realize how absurd your claims are. They made sure wow always had challenging content. No matter how low they adjusted the entry bar, they made damn sure there always was challenging content.
It's obvious in your many years of playing you somehow managed to avoid all of it. Maybe you hardly did anything outside leveling content.

I did most things in WoW, but as the people above pointed out already, it was a fun game and an actual MMORPG when the emphasis was on the journey to level cap, not on the end game. I couldn't care less how challenging some end-game activities are because once they are the focus, you no longer have a massively multiplayer game, you just have a multiplayer game lobby where you can go into an e-sports match (arena) or some coop (raids) or whatever else. The fun part and what makes an MMO an MMO is having a large world to explore and interact with other people while doing fun stuff, and in that area, WoW has been progressively getting dumbed down with every expansion.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
I'm not trolling, you just don't realize how absurd your claims are. They made sure wow always had challenging content. No matter how low they adjusted the entry bar, they made damn sure there always was challenging content.
It's obvious in your many years of playing you somehow managed to avoid all of it. Maybe you hardly did anything outside leveling content.

I did most things in WoW, but as the people above pointed out already, it was a fun game and an actual MMORPG when the emphasis was on the journey to level cap, not on the end game. I couldn't care less how challenging some end-game activities are because once they are the focus, you no longer have a massively multiplayer game, you just have a multiplayer game lobby where you can go into an e-sports match (arena) or some coop (raids) or whatever else. The fun part and what makes an MMO an MMO is having a large world to explore and interact with other people while doing fun stuff, and in that area, WoW has been progressively getting dumbed down with every expansion.

End game in WoW I always thought was pointless in terms of progression. I remember getting my complete set of gear and all the extra toys from raiding, then having the expansion released only to find out that all that work and effort was completely invalidated by some greens and early level blues. If your gear has no real meaning as it concerns new content, then why bother with the end game raid grinding? Once you have completed all the content once, why bother anymore? WoW burned me too many times with that pointless end game grind.

Now when your focus of the game is the progression, not the end, everything you obtain in your journey is useful in the next step of it. It then becomes meaningful to obtain the gear and items. Thing is, in order to have meaningful progression, it has to be more than an ADD power level run, meaning... levels need to take time (as Angthoron pointed out).

Take EQ for example. Leveling took a VERY long time. Most average players weren't even at the cap by the time the next expansion came out 6+ months later (I played quite a bit and I was still only 44 -50 cap- when Kunark was released). So it was very slow, but then... the content fit that leveling speed. Gearing up took a lot of time. For instance, not only did it take a long time to move through a given dungeon (which was a range of mob levels), but named mobs were rare spawns with place holders. Even when you found your mob up, items drops weren't a guarantee, you might get a common, an uncommon, a rare... or nothing at all. It took a lot of time to get something in the game, but... it took you a long time to level, so content was inline with leveling speed.

Now, look to WoW. Leveling speed is ridiculously fast. You can level 1-100 "playing the game" in less than a week. So, if you place content inline with that, you get meaningless, pointless, gimmick content that players pass through so fast that it is lack luster (hence the "only end game matters" arguments). You can't have meaningful content when you allow people to blow through it in such short time. It isn't a surprise then when people think MMOs are "all about the end game", I mean... when you design them that way, sure...

Now I am not saying EQ's ways are the answer, but the concept of taking a long time to level and having content that matches it is. There are problems with it as was discussed earlier though. For instance, when you map out all of your quests, all of your locations, etc... and basically hand the person the answers to the test, are you really surprised when they finish it in seconds? So, content has to match leveling speed, as I said, long hidden quests, drops, progressions, etc... Now certainly, someone could easily look up the answers online and speed up their play, but... well... do we really give them an honest ear when they complain? They did it to themselves and a game isn't designed for the cheater, it is made from the gamer. The cheater can ruin their own game play and cry in their cheerios, so who cares?
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
XP and loot flow are huge offenders, yes. And since the game is very back-loaded, everyone rushes to the "hard content", because the levelling content is "too easy", and because people rush through levelling content, designers make it easier and easier and quicker and quicker, so people aren't compelled to spend time with it. Which's funny, because in vanilla I actually enjoyed the levelling, even though it was "fucking slow". My ex loved levelling her army of alts in every expansion as well.

Don't know what to say about the gear devaluation though - I mean, what would you want? That it upscales with you in levels? Then what's the point of gearing up? It's a 10-year-old MMO, of course you need a constant carrot for gearwhoring. I mean, look at GW2 - they went the opposite way, and are people happy? Not really. Yeah it takes a while to get those amazing legendaries, but what's the point, if they only look different and hit for 20 damage more than a green? (And yes, I still collected one anyway). I guess the only thing I would want upscaled is the legendary weapons, especially the ones before MoP "free legendaries for all" mentality.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
XP and loot flow are huge offenders, yes. And since the game is very back-loaded, everyone rushes to the "hard content", because the levelling content is "too easy", and because people rush through levelling content, designers make it easier and easier and quicker and quicker, so people aren't compelled to spend time with it. Which's funny, because in vanilla I actually enjoyed the levelling, even though it was "fucking slow". My ex loved levelling her army of alts in every expansion as well.

Don't know what to say about the gear devaluation though - I mean, what would you want? That it upscales with you in levels? Then what's the point of gearing up? It's a 10-year-old MMO, of course you need a constant carrot for gearwhoring. I mean, look at GW2 - they went the opposite way, and are people happy? Not really. Yeah it takes a while to get those amazing legendaries, but what's the point, if they only look different and hit for 20 damage more than a green? (And yes, I still collected one anyway). I guess the only thing I would want upscaled is the legendary weapons, especially the ones before MoP "free legendaries for all" mentality.

I think a balance, but also with some non-linear gear aspects as well. Not on power oriented gear, I understand it has to be invalidated eventually or... what is the point? It isn't the fact that gear you earned previously becomes worthless, rather it is more of a "when" that happens. EQ had a pretty good balance for a while, I think Post-Pop is when things when to hell. Basically, your raid gear would give you a good advantage in the new content for some time into it. For instance, right out of the gate, the raider was much better equipped and that gear would last you... I would say about 50% into the content before you started to see replacements from dungeons that were edging them out. Some items though lasted indefinitely until there was an exact replacement (items that had water breathing, levitation, etc...) which was rare or extremely uncommon.

So, the raiders work in the previous content allowed them a good lead over the group player in EQ. They could easily handle some of the early dungeons allowing them progress ahead in exploration and success over the general player. In some cases it would allow the raider to even solo successfully in some situations where their class would disallow it in average group gear. This made raiding just as viable as the basic progression of group play. Sony went overboard though and went too far making raid gear so ridiculously powerful that non-raid content had to be made within reason to appeal to the raid player which made group play massively difficult and group gear drops weren't even remotely comparable to previous expansions raid gear (ie top group gear in the new expansion was still hundreds of AC less than the raid gear in the last one). So... I don't want that, but a good balance as I said could be achieved.

Also, another interesting thing about EQ was that gear wasn't step-by-step based at every stage of progression. You would gear up over the levels, adding in some slot item here or there over the levels, not at each level up like it happens in WoW. It was common to see someone wearing a coveted item from a couple expansions ago because it had unique features or uses that weren't straight power based. As a Monk these items were coveted greatly. For instance, having the Sap Encrusted Branch off of Tunare was a big bonus and was useful in later expansions because it proc's "ensnare". Sure the damage wasn't that amazing after some time, but the effect was what was timeless. There are numerous items like that to which people held on to, carried with them throughout multiple expansions.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
You know, the more I think about it, the more... well.. EQs itemization was vastly different if I am remembering right. While there were definitely gear that was a large step up within a given expansion, a lot of it was useful across the entire level range of the expansion. It was quite common to see items one picked up within the entry zones/dungeons to still be using them at the higher level dungeons. Some upgraded, but some filled in slots that weren't provided in lower dungeons. It was almost like the entire expansions content is what made up your gear. This also included raids. While in most cases raid gear would often replace group gear, within raid gear there wasn't a linear progression of the content. You might have an item from Dain, another from Woushi, one from Tunare, another from Tormax and several pieces from the Temple of Veeshan with a nice rare off of the AoW to top it off. It wasn't like it was in WoW where you did for instance MC, picked up all that set gear, then moved on to BWL replacing all of your MC gear, etc... Having gear from all levels of content within EQ was quite common.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I did most things in WoW, but as the people above pointed out already, it was a fun game and an actual MMORPG when the emphasis was on the journey to level cap, not on the end game.
The fun part and what makes an MMO an MMO is having a large world to explore and interact with other people while doing fun stuff, and in that area, WoW has been progressively getting dumbed down with every expansion.
I think both of these together form the issue. The thing with journeys is that THEY END, and inevitably rather quickly in the grand scheme of things. After which there is nothing to do, and nothing you did before MATTERS except as unrecoverable mistakes that you have to pay money to fix.

My conclusion from all this is that level segregation is evil. What is the point of even having lower levels if they have no relevance to the game at large, and are just an annoying painfully extended tutorial until you can play the actual game?
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
My conclusion from all this is that level segregation is evil. What is the point of even having lower levels if they have no relevance to the game at large, and are just an annoying painfully extended tutorial until you can play the actual game?

The solution is then to throw out all progression mechanics and make it a standard FPS MMO. Thing is, people don't know what they want. They want it to be a progression MMO game, but then complain about the progression being meaningless because... well... there is an end and well, since there is an end, everything you do up to that is meaningless apparently.

What I can't wrap my head around is why most of these people haven't ate a bullet already. I mean, we are all going to die someday, nobody gets out alive. So, knowing that this is the case, why bother with all the in between stuff? Why not just get to the "end game"? /boggle
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Sorry Norfleet, I was being kind of an ass. Touchy subject for me because the problems are due to a continued decline in development as I see it.

I mean, you think levels are horrible, that the problem with early levels is a perfect example of why the system is pointless and failed. All I can say is that when the "journey" is made pointless by speeding it up, making any achievement within it fleeting, etc... well.. I certainly can agree with you. That is the problem though, it is the fact that they have designed the "journey" to be fleeting, unimportant, wasted, etc...

I watched in horror over the years as they designed content to fit a mentality that really isn't interested in playing games. They were just random people who had a "pewter" and thought... neat... I can play this game online (ie a lot of people I ran into in the WoW years only experience with games were with online slots and the like). We aren't talking about people who are hobby gamers, but people who want to be entertained. So, naturally, any "effort" that exists in game play, be it difficulty in tactics or progression, well... it was toned down, you know... to make it more "accessible" to the "average" person (not gamer, average person, there is a huge difference there).

So, enter the "convenience" argument and demands. Levels got much faster (I mean, who wants to be playing all those stupid lower levels when "end game" is where it is at right? hint: not interested in playing a game), gear acquisition became ridiculously common (oh lookie, I pee pee'd! I deserve a reward!), Quest difficulty became public education level (ie eye's wurks hurd alls dae, tenkin hurd... bowncy bawl pweese!), Content and encounters became streamlined (ie difficulty is no fun, fun is winning, I should win with any approach! You know the argument, the claim that encounters are not intelligent enough because not every solution works... because really good game design allows freedom of infinite approaches to achieve success there by eliminating failure, because... you know... all approaches should be successful right?).

So, yes, I understand why you think low levels are pointless, why wasting any effort in them is seriously worthy of a bullet to the head. As I said though, problem is not levels, not starting content, rather it is what they are making today and who they are making it for. Step outside of that inevitable failure and you might be able to see the point.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Sorry Norfleet, I was being kind of an ass. Touchy subject for me because the problems are due to a continued decline in development as I see it.
I didn't actually notice anything, probably because everyone knows that as an android, I am incapable of taking offense as I lack human emotion. That, and I agree.

I mean, you think levels are horrible, that the problem with early levels is a perfect example of why the system is pointless and failed. All I can say is that when the "journey" is made pointless by speeding it up, making any achievement within it fleeting, etc... well.. I certainly can agree with you. That is the problem though, it is the fact that they have designed the "journey" to be fleeting, unimportant, wasted, etc...
I think levels are horrible mainly because they serve no purpose in the game except as a glorified tutorial. If lower-level players actually had some meaningful value in the world, such that it is possible for someone to actively DESIRE to remain so, then they wouldn't be pointless.

So, yes, I understand why you think low levels are pointless, why wasting any effort in them is seriously worthy of a bullet to the head. As I said though, problem is not levels, not starting content, rather it is what they are making today and who they are making it for. Step outside of that inevitable failure and you might be able to see the point.
That's not quite what I said. I said that levels, in the current framework, have always been worthless, because they are simply an extended tutorial until you can play the real game. The world is not made only of Chiefs, yet the game has no place for the Indians. Unfortunately, I don't really have an answer for how to fix that within the framework of World of Warcrap. The concept is simply defective by design.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
I think both of these together form the issue. The thing with journeys is that THEY END, and inevitably rather quickly in the grand scheme of things. After which there is nothing to do, and nothing you did before MATTERS except as unrecoverable mistakes that you have to pay money to fix.

My conclusion from all this is that level segregation is evil. What is the point of even having lower levels if they have no relevance to the game at large, and are just an annoying painfully extended tutorial until you can play the actual game?

Well, back in vanilla/TBC days, leveling took a while, so while yes, it did end at some point, you could still get months of solid play from a single toon. If they kept that leveling rate and just added expansions with new levels caps over time, it could really take a long time to get someone to level cap. Ultimately though, I agree that this is a problem with themepark MMORPGs, eventually the leveling ends and you are stuck with end-game which has never been a very interesting thing for me. I think the only real solution to this problem is to introduce sandbox-type stuff. You can go all sandbox, which takes care of what-to-do if properly done, because in a dynamic world, there is always meaningful stuff to do (player politics, wars, intrigue, etc) or partial sandbox, where you keep some themepark stuff like quests and pre-made factions/characters but make them dynamic in some way, like if you help this faction, there is an associated change in the world, and if you kill this many mobs here, their population will migrate or die out, leading to other effects. I think Sony's EQ-Next is trying to do something along those lines.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Well, back in vanilla/TBC days, leveling took a while, so while yes, it did end at some point, you could still get months of solid play from a single toon. If they kept that leveling rate and just added expansions with new levels caps over time, it could really take a long time to get someone to level cap. Ultimately though, I agree that this is a problem with themepark MMORPGs, eventually the leveling ends and you are stuck with end-game which has never been a very interesting thing for me.
That, and "eventually the leveling ends and you realize that everything you did during it has no relevance and it was all just a big tutorial, now throw all that out and get some real stuff and a real build", and now it's time for the real game.

The stuff you did up to that point has no relevance then and now, except as a series of mistakes you made as a noob that you probably have to pay to respec out of. It certainly didn't make any kind of meaningful contribution to you or the gameworld.

I think the only real solution to this problem is to introduce sandbox-type stuff. You can go all sandbox, which takes care of what-to-do if properly done, because in a dynamic world, there is always meaningful stuff to do (player politics, wars, intrigue, etc) or partial sandbox, where you keep some themepark stuff like quests and pre-made factions/characters but make them dynamic in some way, like if you help this faction, there is an associated change in the world, and if you kill this many mobs here, their population will migrate or die out, leading to other effects. I think Sony's EQ-Next is trying to do something along those lines.
Yeah, but that's the flipside of the coin as well: If players DO heavily impact the world, and you missed this party, the world is now ruled by Goonswarm, good luck getting farmed for kills.

Ultimately, it's kind of a tricky act to balance, avoiding both the Theme Park and the Old Boys' Club.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
I agree with Cobbett on pretty much all points. I've been saying it for a long time now that the vast majority of MMOs don't play to the strengths of the format, instead making singleplayer RPGs where you can chat to your buddies in town. Plenty of them could barely be called MMOs at all with their heavy use of instancing and restricted player interaction.

Saying that EVE's commercial success isn't universe shattering is a little unfair, it's an extremely successful game by any measure, one of the few MMOs to show consistant growth, even in times when the genre at large was losing subscribers. It's by far the most successful MMO in the sandbox style and while I don't play it any more, I'm glad it's around to show us what is possible.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
I didn't actually notice anything, probably because everyone knows that as an android, I am incapable of taking offense as I lack human emotion. That, and I agree.
Excellent, this works well into my plan of world domination if I can somehow reprogram you to my will...

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I think levels are horrible mainly because they serve no purpose in the game except as a glorified tutorial. If lower-level players actually had some meaningful value in the world, such that it is possible for someone to actively DESIRE to remain so, then they wouldn't be pointless.

That's not quite what I said. I said that levels, in the current framework, have always been worthless, because they are simply an extended tutorial until you can play the real game. The world is not made only of Chiefs, yet the game has no place for the Indians. Unfortunately, I don't really have an answer for how to fix that within the framework of World of Warcrap. The concept is simply defective by design.

That is as I said, the way they design things currently, levels are pointless wastes of time. The solution is simple, to make levels take MUCH longer and design the progression to fit such length of play. Imagine it taking average play (ie 2-5 hours a day, 6+ on the weekends was called casual in EQ) and still not being at cap 6 months later? Imagine that all the gear you obtained in the lower levels still actually had some use as you were higher level. I had items from level 1-5 when I was in my 30's. EQ's gear aqusition was much slower than what we know now. You didn't get a prize for every kill, you had to find the rares or do the very long and complex quests to get items. So, naturally the time you spent at each level was the point. You were "playing" a game, not in a rush to finish it.[/QUOTE]
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
I think both of these together form the issue. The thing with journeys is that THEY END, and inevitably rather quickly in the grand scheme of things. After which there is nothing to do, and nothing you did before MATTERS except as unrecoverable mistakes that you have to pay money to fix.

My conclusion from all this is that level segregation is evil. What is the point of even having lower levels if they have no relevance to the game at large, and are just an annoying painfully extended tutorial until you can play the actual game?

Well, back in vanilla/TBC days, leveling took a while, so while yes, it did end at some point, you could still get months of solid play from a single toon. If they kept that leveling rate and just added expansions with new levels caps over time, it could really take a long time to get someone to level cap. Ultimately though, I agree that this is a problem with themepark MMORPGs, eventually the leveling ends and you are stuck with end-game which has never been a very interesting thing for me. I think the only real solution to this problem is to introduce sandbox-type stuff. You can go all sandbox, which takes care of what-to-do if properly done, because in a dynamic world, there is always meaningful stuff to do (player politics, wars, intrigue, etc) or partial sandbox, where you keep some themepark stuff like quests and pre-made factions/characters but make them dynamic in some way, like if you help this faction, there is an associated change in the world, and if you kill this many mobs here, their population will migrate or die out, leading to other effects. I think Sony's EQ-Next is trying to do something along those lines.

Well, running into the problem of having a ridiculous amount of zones that aren't used much eventually becomes a problem, but there are ways to keep giving reasons for people to go back to them with new content additions. Sure, eventually the problem is inevitable, but look at EQ, how many years has it been going now? I think it is safe to say that they can worry about that if their game lasts that long. Until then, many things like getting rid of quest hubs, hiding content from the player cleverly so they have to find it and deduce its resolution. Long levels with content being more dense and purposeful making the time spent at a given level range meaningful. Creating wide content level in zones making them dangerous to travel and explore. I always thought a game should put lots of essentially unbeatable mobs in a game. For instance, if the cap is 50 on levels, put in several zones mobs that are much higher throughout the zones and make them so hard that even if they zerg rush them with massive players, the chance for success if minimal. Put good loot on them as well, but make people earn them, make them want to go back once there is a new expansion and play this content. Put in quests that are intricately woven into that content. There is no rule that says players have to be able to complete all content, let them twist and work a solution (allow one at extreme effort though) and they will spend enormous amounts of resources and time trying to defeat the content.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
EVE
consistant growth
Except that's not fucking true at all.

Looks pretty good to me. I guess the hiccup in 2011 was related to the protest about the microtransactions.

Subsciber numbers, according to wikipedia:
zvXoCk8.png
 
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Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
I didn't cherry pick, none of the things you mentioned after ":" are "challenges", respec just took the cake.
You got no context, just bunched up various shit you vaguely remember it took long for you to do and call them challenges.

It might involve no rocket science, but there are plenty things challenging in wow. Yet in the many years you played this game those were the crown achievements for you? Either you are lying about how long you played the game or are living proof the game needed to be dumbed down.
Challenge does not mean only stuff that tests the player's ability, in the context of a game where failure does not exist and the player inevitably advances, it can mean having to put in more time and effort to get stuff done. The word difficult would be a synonym. And that's before I even get into the other stuff I was talking about, such as nonlinear dungeons being more challenging to navigate, respecs you have to plan out ahead to handle multiple situations without being able to switch them on the fly, etc.
Something can be challenging for a lot of bad reasons. Does that mean it's a viable game? Not usually. What if my game only involved pressing a single key every five seconds, with NOTHING else, and those who pressed it precisely on time and consistently for the longest periods of time had the highest score? It could easily be challenging, but for terrible reasons.

Games need challenge for the right reasons to be the most successful. That's what a game should strive for.

And yet I'll sit down and partially agree with you. I personally think even the most expertly crafted challenge will fail in an MMO if too many players are not winning or not making steady progress. It's possible for challenges to require too much IQ or tactical/strategic knowledge (however genuine it may be). In the case of IQ, it might not be fixable. In the case of knowledge, a game has to prepare the player adaquately for the challenges. A player has to be matched with an opponent who does not outmatch them.

What do you do for players who have low IQ? And surely IQ is not the only innate factor which will influence what players are capable of. If you do not supply players enough options in how the game is played, you can very easily make it impossible to play for some, as they'll be unable to achieve things. And some plyers will plainly not be interested in certain things. You have to figure out either a common denominator, so that all players are interested, or you must have multiple paths to victory, all equal in their own right. So maybe one player pays football to win and another plays soccer and yet another plays volleyball.

Note that failing to observe the above only accomplishes challenge for the wrong reasons.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
I think both of these together form the issue. The thing with journeys is that THEY END, and inevitably rather quickly in the grand scheme of things. After which there is nothing to do, and nothing you did before MATTERS except as unrecoverable mistakes that you have to pay money to fix.

My conclusion from all this is that level segregation is evil. What is the point of even having lower levels if they have no relevance to the game at large, and are just an annoying painfully extended tutorial until you can play the actual game?

Well, back in vanilla/TBC days, leveling took a while, so while yes, it did end at some point, you could still get months of solid play from a single toon. If they kept that leveling rate and just added expansions with new levels caps over time, it could really take a long time to get someone to level cap. Ultimately though, I agree that this is a problem with themepark MMORPGs, eventually the leveling ends and you are stuck with end-game which has never been a very interesting thing for me. I think the only real solution to this problem is to introduce sandbox-type stuff. You can go all sandbox, which takes care of what-to-do if properly done, because in a dynamic world, there is always meaningful stuff to do (player politics, wars, intrigue, etc) or partial sandbox, where you keep some themepark stuff like quests and pre-made factions/characters but make them dynamic in some way, like if you help this faction, there is an associated change in the world, and if you kill this many mobs here, their population will migrate or die out, leading to other effects. I think Sony's EQ-Next is trying to do something along those lines.
That sums it up...

You know, it took me a long time to finally figure out what was happening. It was probably 2007 or 2008 when I started to see something was wrong. I saw how EQ was changing from its former self to a more WoW-ish (and/or messed up) experience. I got involved in the threads which called for the company to create a classic server. I soon learned it might be called mudflation, sometime around 2009 or 2010. HOwever, I only had a fuzzy idea what it was. Oh, I read plenty about it. I used to love to visit the cesspit and read what he wrote about it. But it took me darn near until 2013 or 2014 to finally get it somewhat.

I bolded the parts of the quote above which summarize what I'm about to say....

These progression-based MMO games get faster/easier in the lower to mid levels as they age. And it has got less to do with wanting to be WoW or wanting to be mainstream and more to do with technical things, like mudflation. The initial urge, which can last years, is to believe these aging games become this way because of some desire to be more casual. While this is partly true because aging games do tend to broaden their appeal to delay death, it's far from being the biggest reason it happens. To really understand you have to understand mudflation and other topics. I don't mean briefly read about it, I mean get your hands seriously dirty.

And mudflation is not the only technical problem of aging games which causes this. It also happens because content gets old. Whether it's the number or quality of polygons or effects or voiceovers or user-interface elements or whatever. As example, early quests in Everquest were keyword based, except the keywords weren't even highlighted or bracketed. You had to say the right keywords or hand in the riht item to get the quest going or overhear a conversation which gave a clue. Later on, keywords were highlighted. Still later, they created a Task Window and Quest Journal where quests were managed/stored, including instructions. They also added "Quest" or "Task Giver" to the names of the NPCs which oferred these tasks/quests. The problem is they left thousands of old quests and npcs utilizing the old keyword system. Instead of reworking all those quests, they just added a couple new ones utilizing the new system and instead focused on adding new quests to new zones. This means any player levelling up in the older zone would come across a lot of quests using the old systems. Now multiply hte effect of this by everything else, including polygons, effects, mechanics and other things tied to user-interface, and you start to understand why this becomes a problem for the low to mid-level player.

I am not even going to try to cover everything. I'm just going to say new leveling players tend to be playing a different game from the one high levels are playing. And new levelling players tend to want to be in hte areas where the high level players are. This isn't just about wanting to be at the end game. See, that's like thinking an aging game wants to be more casual just because it gets faster/easier in the low to mid-levels. The devil is in the details and as long as you stay on the surface you'll never understand. A lot of times it's not that a player wants to be at the end game, it's that the low to mid-level game doesn't cut it. It doesn't cut it for too many reasons to list here. It might be population related. It might be technical, like playing in outdated content. It might be wanting to play with a high level friend. It might be a blur of things patched together which just is unappealing to you. For example, the low to mid-levels in EQ are so much of a big mess of everything from 1999 to 2015 that consistency experience is impossible.

The irony is aging games tend to lose quality with time on all levels. The high levels don't escape. Even the high end players are getting shafted. The new ones want to be somewhere relevant and populated and the higher level ones want a deep polished experience. The game makers are struggling to balance all of the old s*** with the new s***, fighting a battle which they're preordained to lose.

It's the same reason it's much easier to make a 25 year old look 25 than a 90 year old to look 25. Even with star trek technology we'd have a h ard time making the 90 year old look, act and feel 25 again. Games face the same fate as they age.

Let me introduce the "cesspit" to those who're unfamiliar - a link I sotred in my favorites in Oct 2009:
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/555/

While you should read the whole thing, I'll quote this part:
Why does this process exist? Because it’s a recursive process. You cannot stretch too much the treadmills or you shatter the community. If the whole development is about adding terrain for the treadmill, it will become increasing hard for the new players to join the game and integrate themselves. The space between the first levels and the last increases exponentially representing an unending ladder to climb just so that you are supposed to join your friends and their activities. These treadmills are barriers between the players. They do not work by definition because they break the accessibility and uncover the true, emptied nature of the model. The mudflation is a process that exists to solve this situation. The mudflation is a positive “antibody” developed directly by the game itself to survive. It’s the only way for the game to remain cohesive, to not finish fragmented into too many pieces.
 
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That's an interesting idea, but I would have to disagree based on my personal MMO experiences. I think this is one of those ideas where the developers try to please the players so much they end up hurting them. In themepark MMOs, there isn't enough to do in the end-game, even in a game with massive content like several years old WoW, to keep the high level players there all the time. Sure they'll run some raids, do some arena, etc, but that doesnt take that much time, and eventually most of them will make alts and go back to adventuring at lower levels. This creates a large numbers of players in addition to new players and/or players coming back who will play at lower levels.

Similarly, I don't buy the whole thing about people who want to play with their friends. If they really want to do that, they can create alts, the game shouldnt make it easier for new ones to catch up. Ultimately, I believe for most players, the leveling up part is the fun part in themepark MMOs, and by marginalizing it, you are hurting yourself.
 
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That is as I said, the way they design things currently, levels are pointless wastes of time. The solution is simple, to make levels take MUCH longer and design the progression to fit such length of play. Imagine it taking average play (ie 2-5 hours a day, 6+ on the weekends was called casual in EQ) and still not being at cap 6 months later? Imagine that all the gear you obtained in the lower levels still actually had some use as you were higher level. I had items from level 1-5 when I was in my 30's. EQ's gear aqusition was much slower than what we know now. You didn't get a prize for every kill, you had to find the rares or do the very long and complex quests to get items. So, naturally the time you spent at each level was the point. You were "playing" a game, not in a rush to finish it.
If you can find an easy answer to it, you deserve something like hte nobel prize. Please read my previous post or a rundown on this exact topic.

Mudflation is the answer to bigger and bigger separation between the lowest level and the highest level. This separation shatters the community. Companies create extra progression and so the separation increases. It hasn't worked in the past to leave it alone which is why mudflation largely happens. This is why the low to mid-level gets more casual and fast. It MUST be faster, so that players in the low end don't have to slog through all of it like someone who's been there the whole time.

You might ask WHY new players have to move faster through the low to mid levels, as the MMO ages? Well, I've kind of covered that already in the previous post. Norfleet gives a good reason: the low levels are usually irrelevant and act as a barrier. There can be lots of reasons. One of my favorites is the low/mid content becomes outdated and not as fun for players, so speeding up progression makes it less toilsome. But there're many other reasons. Maybe htey want to play with a high level friend. Maybe there're too few players in the low to mid-level range to keep things social and/or to form groups. Maybe the low to mid-level game is too different from the high level game. Maybe the company focuses more on the high level game, so neglects the low/mid levels. Maybe the only respect one can get in the game is to be in the high levels, thus you have to slog through mountains of low/mid level content.

I think this evolution of using mudlfation to solve the separation problem has led to MMO's which're more solo-oriented. By making them solo-oriented the game won't be population dependent. This means if the game grows older and incoming population drops, it won't have a serious impact on the ability of new players to progress. HOwever, the possible drawback of this is many players DO want a social connection. If they truly wanted a single-player game, they wouldn't be playing an MMO, would they? The company has to find a way to connect players, ideally players of all level ranges, in a meaningful way which doesn't make them feel neglected or irrelevant. This has led to things like mentor/teacher mechanics which allow high levels to interact with low levels in a productive manner. This is why some MMO's have insta-grouping or cross-server grouping. This is why there're quest hubs. This is why the company created the Plane of Knowledge. This is also why pvp instnaces might allow low levle players to compete against high level players on a fair playing field - which mostly disregards their level.

Fundamentally, the progression mountain which separates players has to be transparent or porous. It has to allow transport of meaningful things in both directions from the low end to the high end. This strengthens t community which keeps players playing.
 
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That's an interesting idea, but I would have to disagree based on my personal MMO experiences. I think this is one of those ideas where the developers try to please the players so much they end up hurting them. In themepark MMOs, there isn't enough to do in the end-game, even in a game with massive content like several years old WoW, to keep the high level players there all the time. Sure they'll run some raids, do some arena, etc, but that doesnt take that much time, and eventually most of them will make alts and go back to adventuring at lower levels. This creates a large numbers of players in addition to new players and/or players coming back who will play at lower levels.

Similarly, I don't buy the whole thing about people who want to play with their friends. If they really want to do that, they can create alts, the game shouldnt make it easier for new ones to catch up. Ultimately, I believe for most players, the leveling up part is the fun part in themepark MMOs, and by marginalizing it, you are hurting yourself.
It's not an idea. it'sa fact. Every single progression-based MMO which ages has to confront the progression mountain it has created. Why you ask? Because it wants players to kep coming back. It wants the community to be strong.

This whole thread largely exists because of the progression separtion. Sure, casuals like fast/easy games, and there's some arguments to be made about that, but to ignore all this I've brought up is to ignore the elephant in the room. Mudflation has bee known about for decades. If you ignore it, you start blaming casuals and mainstreaming and other things unnecessarily. Why point figners at things which're not fully to blame? Point fingers fairly or don't point hem at ll.

And btw it's not mudflation whichis to blame, it's the progression separation which - if left unchecked - kills the game

Imagine a community of players of different levels. To have a successful game, over time,you have to keep the ocmmunity together. Each player has to feel relevant and connected to the community. Now imagine the world which the community exist in keeps growing and growing and gowing. The distance between each meber of the community increases. To combat the increasing distance, the game has to make it easier for each member to interact across greater distances, thus sustaining the community. The area where the game actually slowly dies is in how the effort to connect the community members eventually fails to do so effectively while also maintainig the illusion of the game. For example, imagine cruising along the coastal countryside in your convertible with the sun beaming down on you. You're going at a comfortable 35 mph and everything is peachy. But now everthing speeds up to 55mph and the corners are sharper. While you still catch some scenery, you're catching less than before. And yet aggain you're forced to speed up to 75mph. The corners are even sharper, except this time the road is bumpier and slippier in places. Soon, your capacity to take in the scenery and enjoy the ride will be destroyed. That's when the MMO finally dies.
 
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Xenich

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Mudflation is the answer to bigger and bigger separation between the lowest level and the highest level. This separation shatters the community. Companies create extra progression and so the separation increases. It hasn't worked in the past to leave it alone which is why mudflation largely happens. This is why the low to mid-level gets more casual and fast. It MUST be faster, so that players in the low end don't have to slog through all of it like someone who's been there the whole time.

No, what you want is your cake and eat it to. I am sorry, but here is the issue. You can't have a meaningful progression that takes time and provides worth to the effort and then turn around and circumvent it with a fast paced progression for late starters to catch up. The fact is, you can't have everything you want at all times. Now... that doesn't mean there can't be solutions to "Ease" such progression for a late starter. My suggestion is allowing high level players to de-level their characters to the level of the player they wish to play with, but going further than that of what EQ2 did (which was overpowered and less attentive) and making the character in pretty much EVERY WAY the same level and ability of the lower level player they wish to play with. That is really the only solution.

The idea that you have to destroy all lower content because some impatient little kid needs to get up to his friends fast is MAINSTREAM thought. It is what led us to the stupid systems we have today. Look, I understand your "friend" is high level, that you aren't, but that isn't a valid argument to piss off the lower play of the game. In fact, if you do, you will be a piss poor player who everyone complains about because you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to playing the character, which... will lead to you pissing and moaning about how the game is too hard and eventually we end up with WoW all over again. Sorry... we have been there. done that.

Do you know how disappointing it is to go to a game that pisses away lower content? My friends and I have gone to different games, decided we would group together and take on the content up, but... the game had already pissed all over proper progression and all the lower content ended up being was a solo fest to fucking end game. No thanks, sorry, those games can piss off. It is an insult to not only the player, but the developer to disregard all the work done in lower game so some fucking impatient piece of casual shit can "get up to their friends faster". Sorry, but they are the reason gaming is in decline. Understand the meaning of proper long term development or go play a fucking mobile or console game.

You might ask WHY new players have to move faster through the low to mid levels, as the MMO ages? Well, I've kind of covered that already in the previous post. Norfleet gives a good reason: the low levels are usually irrelevant and act as a barrier. There can be lots of reasons. One of my favorites is the low/mid content becomes outdated and not as fun for players, so speeding up progression makes it less toilsome. But there're many other reasons. Maybe htey want to play with a high level friend. Maybe there're too few players in the low to mid-level range to keep things social and/or to form groups. Maybe the low to mid-level game is too different from the high level game. Maybe the company focuses more on the high level game, so neglects the low/mid levels. Maybe the only respect one can get in the game is to be in the high levels, thus you have to slog through mountains of low/mid level content.

Norfleet plays games for different reasons and if you are using him for support for the arguments you make, I would take a back look at his arguments on gaming in general. You are a main streamer, everything you argue is such. I don't fault you for it, I mean, you like what you like, but you need to understand that your tastes are like spitting in the face of mine. See, I despise your expectations of gaming. Norfleet, I can understand why he dislikes levels. He is all about end game and fucking over anyone and everyone to show his superiority. He is a PVP focused player and it is the same with PVE. He is the guy that grinds what developers think are insane barriers to players, that nobody with a life would attempt. He likes pissing off anyone and everyone in games. It is how he achieves his entertainment. At his core, if you are paying attention his reason for "agreeing" with you has nothing to do with your ideal but rather a lacking of execution by game companies who tend to spend their time appealing to people like you. Frankly, you are his bitch. /shrug

I think this evolution of using mudlfation to solve the separation problem has led to MMO's which're more solo-oriented. By making them solo-oriented the game won't be population dependent. This means if the game grows older and incoming population drops, it won't have a serious impact on the ability of new players to progress. HOwever, the possible drawback of this is many players DO want a social connection. If they truly wanted a single-player game, they wouldn't be playing an MMO, would they? The company has to find a way to connect players, ideally players of all level ranges, in a meaningful way which doesn't make them feel neglected or irrelevant. This has led to things like mentor/teacher mechanics which allow high levels to interact with low levels in a productive manner. This is why some MMO's have insta-grouping or cross-server grouping. This is why there're quest hubs. This is why the company created the Plane of Knowledge. This is also why pvp instnaces might allow low levle players to compete against high level players on a fair playing field - which mostly disregards their level.

Fundamentally, the progression mountain which separates players has to be transparent or porous. It has to allow transport of meaningful things in both directions from the low end to the high end. This strengthens t community which keeps players playing.

You can't have a beginning and an end and expect people to start at the end. Now agreed, games over time get light on the lower end (ie not enough new players coming in to sustain original game designs). I think the solution to such is to meet that at the areas it is lacking. I think mentoring (done properly) and mercs (only at the levels lacking) are good ways to deal with content outdated. See, while you may want to "rush off to the end" because nobody is playing the lower levels, I like to actually play that lower level content and challenge myself through it. If you are going to invalidate older content because fewer people are playing it, just delete it all and make your game an FPS to appeal to the mainstream crowd.

edit:

There are many ways to help progression as such, but encourage lower level play. Here is a thought, how about allowing high level players to play lower lever characters for benefits to their own? These characters could not be used unless someone was a new character (there are ways to check for abuse). This way, players can get benefits who are already at the max level, but will still be playing with lower level characters. This works because these players can help the lower levels learn to play the game. Its a win win.

BTW you can play on EQ like servers today, with extremely slow progression and still excel, playing with other players and moving through content. This idea that you need to be able to jump to your "friend" at the higher levels quickly is pure impatient mainstream thought. It is people who aren't interested in gaming, but interested in social gaming.
 
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