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The Rise and Fall of the Personal Quest

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Critique of modern MMOs by Richard Cobbett: http://www.pcgamer.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-personal-quest/

The advantage of personal quests is threefold. First, the player always has something to do. Second, the pacing and difficulty is kept under the designer's control. The problem though is the third, that progress is almost never stymied if there aren't any other players around. This more than anything is why they became such a crutch. If your game relies on, say, armies clashing but there aren't enough people online and up for doing that, the game dies. If progress is reliant on players teaming up, but they either won't or can't, the game dies. If your plan was to have a deep political system but the players just act like barbarians, the game dies. These aren't casual fears either. Ultima Online for instance was set in a world devoted to the Eight Virtues and marketed to an audience well trained to be heroes, only to turn into a Darwinian charnel house. A Tale In The Desert, a very clever game that's still running, charged players with creating a perfect Egypt only for them to immediately strip-mine it.

Personal quests were insurance. No matter what else happened in that world, there would be that strong through-line - NPCs, monsters, specific objectives. There would always be someone in need of twenty bear asses, and twenty bears with asses to spare. And so, over the years, the genre calcified around a few basic pillars - a Personal Quest that would take you through the game, dungeons and raiding where group content would be played, PvP stuffed somewhere around the edge, and maybe a couple more bits. The technology likewise improved, with World of Warcraft typically leading the pack in terms of cutscenes and phasing and scripted encounters that increasingly copied single-player RPGs. In the last couple of years, Warlords of Draenor and Final Fantasy XIV have done a particularly good job of making this cool.

The problem is that in focusing on the single-player experience like this, the multiplayer side is typically wasted. It's often impossible to play with friends if you want to, since your version of the world is different, you're completely locked into your level boundary, you can't share quests based on each person being at different stages or already having completed them, and even if you do team up, every NPC addresses you personally. Now, being an antisocial jerk like I am, I'm not too saddened by being treated like a hero, and I can blank out the fact that I am not really the Commander of the Horde any more than I am Earth's first Spectre or a mighty archmage. Still, it's hard not to feel sad that more ideas haven't been tried.

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Quite often they have, but it's not just developers who will typically follow the path of least resistance in the name of success and keeping their jobs. Personal quests have taught players very bad habits, like eschewing most challenge in favour of just levelling up a bit and powering past it, and expecting an entire world to be presented to them on a carefully levelled out plate. Something I loved in the original World of Warcraft for instance was that early on you had things like the Level 10-20 Darkwood area right next to the super-dangerous Felwood for Levels 40-50 players. It felt more realistic that way; a brooding evil place right on the edge of safety. But now, you never see that any more because people complain about being killed. Or being asked to travel through dangerous territory to get back to safety. Where originally the progress was about blips of experience and levels, it's now as much quests completed. Anything that slows that process down is deemed a problem, not a challenge. Other players aren't potential comrades, they're assholes who steal your kills and call you noob for screwing up.

Easily the most tragic victim of this approach though has to be The Elder Scrolls Online from last year. You know that the cult of the personal quest has reached critical when it even infests a series predicated on freedom and exploration, its world being sliced up into levelled zones and being led by the nose, with just a little wandering around the side to remind you of what could have been. But there are other games too. DC Universe Online springs to mind, where yes, there's a PvP server mode, but a game that could have been built around really fun ways for heroes and villains to clash and compete just ended up with them casually following their own red string paths around the world and listening to pre-recorded mission logs. The Secret World too, as discussed here a couple of weeks ago.

Really, if that's going to be the focus, make a single-player game.

It's no wonder that over the past couple of years especially, the pendulum has swung away from MMOs and in favour of two genres in particular - the MOBA (please address all complaints about my using the word MOBA to someone who cares) that allows the fantasy trappings and team dynamic with far more depth, and sandbox games, be they friendly like Minecraft or brutal like Rust. Their focus on building, on community, on being part of something bigger was the original promise of the MMO genre, with its start coming from a combination of that and the magic of being able to share a world with so many people. Now, more or less any tiny company can shit an MMO out if they want to, and the generation they have to appeal to isn't impressed by such magic as 'online play'. MMOs have been left in the dirt, and a big reason for that is that they stuck with what worked, long after it became self-defeating. A few like Guild Wars 2 have tried pulling things back in the other direction, though only with limited success and little copying so far. Age of Conan had one of the strangest approaches, with a highly polished starter quest that then dumped players into a far more basic world with no idea what to do next, to which most decided that the correct answer was "uninstall this". Only Eve has really nailed the MMORPG sandbox, and even then its commercial success isn't universe shattering.
 

abija

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Another game journalist discussing big games without bothering to play them?
 

Xenich

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He comes at the problem from a mechanics angle and while some of his points I agree with, he fails to consider that the issue is developing for a wide audience who really aren't "game" interested people in the first place. They don't want a "game", they simply want to be entertained (ie to have fun) and since there is no logical structure that defines "fun" or "entertaining" being that it is entirely subjective, there is no means to achieve a result that is generally successful. WoW, being one of the first games to appeal to that "wide audience" was not massively successful because of its mechanics, but because of several factors that can not be reproduced today. As the author mentions, playing online is no longer a new and exciting thing for the computer illiterate masses. Those masses of players were never people interested in games in the first place and so "game" mechanics can not retain them indefinitely. It is similar to the console industry and the eventual collapse of interest between each evolution of graphics. It is the "appeal" of non-gaming aspects to which draw these large groups (graphics, sound, new features, etc...), not clever game mechanics.

Look to the numerous complaints on the forums of these dying MMO giants. They are littered with constant complaints about game mechanics getting in the way of them having "fun". These people defy the very point of what a game is to serve their instant gratification for "entertainment". The result is then mechanics that do not serve to provide challenges of play on any level for the fear that it may impede someone from having "fun". So naturally, we end up with games... no sorry, not a game, entertainment... designed for the lowest common denominator. The result? Well... you see where we are now?

Also consider that many of these games are profitable even when they are being shut down. The thing is, in this day and age where companies measure their worth in insanely high numbers, a game bringing in a profit isn't enough. Making money isn't enough, there is a required amount of money these mega businesses require and if that isn't met, it is considered a loss in their eyes. I mean, how many billionaires do you see stop to pick up that penny on the ground? So, naturally large studio influence can also be a factor of why games are designed the way they are and who they are designed for. Certainly we can see the contrast of this behavior with the recent spur of smaller companies putting out the new products of "incline". Being profitable to continue making games comfortably is certainly acceptable for these smaller companies while large companies would have shut down the production to avoid wasting time on such meager earnings.

Personally, I think the death of mainstream MMOs is excellent news. For one, consumer run servers and tool sets are becoming popular again and without the big mainstream companies to push them into MMOs we should see some really amazing things. Chris Roberts has the right idea with Star Citizen. It isn't something new, NWN was designed with this in mind long ago and it is this type of focus that could breathe life back into the multi-player model. The other thing is that without the influence of mainstream MMOs, studios are free to pursue profits that are sustainable and reasonable expectations for the work they provide. Remember, EQ was considered a major success when it was only around 350k subscribers. Without the "You must be the next WoW in subscriptions!" looming over the head of these studios, we may see more games come out that actually spend time appealing to the development of a "game" and not simply marketing "entertainment" to the masses. Because smaller sub bases are feasible, the success of a given game is more likely.

So while I do agree that many things he mentions have led to the death of MMOs, those mechanics are really just a symptom of the overall problem I mentioned.
 

Norfleet

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The real problem with multiplayer-based mechanics is when they're all carebear, and thus REQUIRE other people. Murderin' and pillagin', the oldschool multiplayer, didn't REQUIRE that others be around to cooperate with your goals. If they didn't want to go murderin' and pillagin' with you, you murdered and pillaged THEM. If they didn't dare to show their faces outside of town, you murdered and pillaged the town. And them. If they didn't dare to show up at ALL, then you won the game! Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god!
 

Gerrard

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Looks like someone's realized that people are fucking dicks and will act like dicks given any opportunity and lack of consequences for their actions, therefore no game that depends on them not being dicks will ever work.

The real problem with multiplayer-based mechanics is when they're all carebear, and thus REQUIRE other people. Murderin' and pillagin', the oldschool multiplayer, didn't REQUIRE that others be around to cooperate with your goals.
Yeah, except for the part where you can't do shit because you're outnumbered 5 to 1. How is that not requiring other people again?
 

Norfleet

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Only 5:1? Manageable in those days. Git gud or cry trying! Modern popamole games rarely have the kind of depth that let you git gud, though. You could always SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS, though. If you need 5 people...be those 5 people. It's only 5, you can do it! It's not as if you need a hundred, that would require a lot more computers. I recall one of the meaner PvP parties in WoW was actually one guy multiboxing the entire party.
 
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It's amazing what happened to the MMORPG genre the last few years. It was such a huge thing from the late 90s onward, and now, as the guy is saying, it's on the ropes. WoW has set the bar so high with its success that every MMO since has been a disappointment.

My personal take on it is that WoW, in its early days (vanilla, maybe TBC), took the themepark approach to MMOs as high as it can go. They had a large open world, players running all over it, even some sandbox elements such as open world PvP, lots of quality themepark content, very polished gameplay, and were the first to do this. Then, inevitably, in their pursuit of larger audiences and profits, they kept dumbing everything down. Leveling became faster and faster until instead of being a long term experience, you could literally level a new character to level cap in a couple of weeks or less. Things that were challenging before became easy: mounts became cheap as dirt, dungeons became accessible without quests and linear, respeccing became easier and easier until you could just keep 2 specs, and teleports and insta-queues became commonplace. Over time this turned a great MMO into some sort of lobby with a bunch of mini-games attached, where pretty much everyone just hung out in a large city, yapping in general chat while waiting for their particular queue to complete. A sad state of affairs.

Most MMOs since WoW have tried to duplicate their success but the thing about themepark MMOs, after a while it all starts to become the same. How many times can you kill 20 wolves, collect 50 squirrel nutsackes, save the kingdom, etc, etc before it all becomes banally pointless? On top of that, most other companies aren't as good as Blizzard in terms of polish, enjoyable basic mechanics, content production, and a large fanbase. And that's why all these games like ESO, Rift, Tera, STWOR, etc are so disappointing.

The only way to reinvigorate the genre is to really go back to its roots and analyze what makes it so unique and special. The themepark approach doesn't really tap into the MMO potential, because when you have a world full of people, telling them some kind of a static pre-written story is a complete waste of the medium. What you want to do, much like UO and Eve, is to give these people interesting tools to affect the world and then watch the dynamic complexity that unfolds. The big challenges are 1) unlike Eve, to make the underlying mechanics interesting (Eve is interesting in a meta-game way, but boring as all hell in terms of actual gameplay), and 2) unlike UO, Darkfall Online, etc, to balance player freedom with meaning and consequences. As is well known by now, giving players absolute freedom tends to turn these types of games into griefing deathmatches which is not what most people who are interested in that type of game want. It's good that a player can be attacked and killed anywhere, but it's bad when that happens every 2 steps because a bunch of idiots are farming weaker players. This is neither realistic nor enjoyable for most people. So the challenging part is to develop game mechanics that enforce realistic behavior, e.g. attacking and killing a rich merchant on the road is realistic, but psychotically killing noobs over and over just because you can is not. This won't be easy, as many games have failed, some spectacularly, but I think it's possible with the proper investment of time and money.
 

Norfleet

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Trying to design your MMO like World of Warcrap is basically a failure, because anyone who wanted that experience is already playing World of Warcrap.
 

abija

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Things that were challenging before became easy: mounts became cheap as dirt, dungeons became accessible without quests and linear, respeccing became easier and easier until you could just keep 2 specs, and teleports and insta-queues became commonplace.

How can you associate grinding for a mount or respec gold with challenging? "Respeccing became easier and easier" is a new record in dumbfuck complaints about games you don't play but you totally know why they suck.
 
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How can you associate grinding for a mount or respec gold with challenging? "Respeccing became easier and easier" is a new record in dumbfuck complaints about games you don't play but you totally know why they suck.

1. I played WoW on and off for many years.
2. The challenge in that sentence was referring to all the things mentioned, not just the ones you cherry-picked.
3. WoW is a grind-centric game, and as far as I know, involves no rocket science, so yes, challenging within that context would refer to things taking more time to achieve/obtain.

Next.
 

abija

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I didn't cherry pick, none of the things you mentioned after ":" are "challenges", respec just took the cake.
You got no context, just bunched up various shit you vaguely remember it took long for you to do and call them challenges.

It might involve no rocket science, but there are plenty things challenging in wow. Yet in the many years you played this game those were the crown achievements for you? Either you are lying about how long you played the game or are living proof the game needed to be dumbed down.
 
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I didn't cherry pick, none of the things you mentioned after ":" are "challenges", respec just took the cake.
You got no context, just bunched up various shit you vaguely remember it took long for you to do and call them challenges.

It might involve no rocket science, but there are plenty things challenging in wow. Yet in the many years you played this game those were the crown achievements for you? Either you are lying about how long you played the game or are living proof the game needed to be dumbed down.

Challenge does not mean only stuff that tests the player's ability, in the context of a game where failure does not exist and the player inevitably advances, it can mean having to put in more time and effort to get stuff done. The word difficult would be a synonym. And that's before I even get into the other stuff I was talking about, such as nonlinear dungeons being more challenging to navigate, respecs you have to plan out ahead to handle multiple situations without being able to switch them on the fly, etc.
 

Norfleet

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Challenge in the absence of a failure state, with a fixed reward, can be assessed based on the difference in completion cost (usually time) between player(s) of the challenge. A low-challenge mission has relatively little or no variation between players: Everyone finishes it the same, because the obstacles to completion are purely time-based, like walking from point A to point B, and nobody can do better or worse at it. Missions with high variation, even without a failure state, are "challenging" in the sense that some people are clearly doing better at it than others, so some kind of skillset is being challenged.

From this you can calculate TEDIUM, the average completion time divided by the challenge: A challenging mission (high variance), with a low average completion time is an intense nailbiter: low tedium. A challenging mission with a long completion time is, somewhat more tedious. A long mission with low-to-no challenge is highly tedious. A short mission, no challenge, still low on tedium, quickly in, quickly out.

Now you take TEDIUM divided by REWARD, and you'll get a value of just how much players hate your content. I betcha pretty much all the top-scoring hated content (with no fail conditions) falls into High Tedium / Poor Reward.
 

abija

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PorkyThePaladin
Failure exists in WoW, try harder maybe? That's the whole problem with dribble like yours, you choose mundane shit without failure option and complain it's been dumbed down while the game offers actual challenges.

Now you even have challenging solo and party content (not self imposed). So hmm, the game is actually more challenging?
 
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PorkyThePaladin
Failure exists in WoW, try harder maybe? That's the whole problem with dribble like yours, you choose mundane shit without failure option and complain it's been dumbed down while the game offers actual challenges.

Now you even have challenging solo and party content (not self imposed). So hmm, the game is actually more challenging?

Maybe you should try harder in your lackluster trolling attempts?

When I was playing WoW for years, it was getting easier with every expansion and update to the point of absurdity. But yeah, I guess now that it's a game hobby instead of a massively multiplayer game, it suddenly became challenging because you say so? Ok, buddy.
 

Angthoron

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Problem with current WoW design is that it's very much end-focused. Vanilla (as well as BC, and to some extent, WotLK) still had a lot to do that wasn't the "endgame", Vanilla originally had very little to offer for people tearing through content and waiting for amazing raids - which's in part why all those lengthy attunements and resist gear checks existed, it was more centered on the experience of getting to L60, and becoming a reasonably powerful L60. Of course, this cannot last.

Blizz tried to reboot that with Cataclysm, but at that point, it was too late. People already had their endgame shoes on, their army of high-level alts, and just hobbled around through the remade world out of faint interest. Didn't help that the leveling speed was made ridiculous even before all the heirloom gear would take effect. Besides, why bother? You'd not be meeting new friends that would stay in your level range for weeks - have a social life for an evening or two, and enjoy looking at your new buddy doing LFR while you're still L73. So, if you like the whole endgame thing (raids, PvP), then it works fine. If you like what's supposed to be the idea behind MMOs though... Well.
 

abija

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Maybe you should try harder in your lackluster trolling attempts?

When I was playing WoW for years, it was getting easier with every expansion and update to the point of absurdity. But yeah, I guess now that it's a game hobby instead of a massively multiplayer game, it suddenly became challenging because you say so? Ok, buddy.
I'm not trolling, you just don't realize how absurd your claims are. They made sure wow always had challenging content. No matter how low they adjusted the entry bar, they made damn sure there always was challenging content.
It's obvious in your many years of playing you somehow managed to avoid all of it. Maybe you hardly did anything outside leveling content.

Angthoron
Pretty sure current expansion has more to do before end game than vanilla, tbc or wotlk.
Vanilla seems centered around the leveling experience because there wasn't anything else. You don't know if it was designed that way or they did the best with the few content they had.
 
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Angthoron

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Pretty sure current expansion has more to do before end game than vanilla, tbc or wotlk.
Vanilla seems centered around the leveling experience because there wasn't anything else. You don't know if it was designed that way or they did the best with the few content they had.
In terms of variety - absolutely. In terms of pacing/speed etc, no - it's end-centric. That's not to say that everything on the way to the endgame isn't quality (in fact, lack of quality content in WoD "open world" is not at all the case), but you run out of it very, very quickly even on your first char, and all the alt levelling can be done in an extremely speedy way. You don't really need to spend much time in the world. That's my point.

And yep, that was also my point about vanilla. It was about levelling, grouping up was natural because everyone was "out there", questing or farming or making that 40-minute trip from STV to Scarlet Monastery. The underdeveloped conveniences and the lack of instant-ish endgame (or quick leveling alternatives) pretty much resulted in creation of communities and player interactions. You don't need communities now - unless you're doing endgame.
 

Xenich

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Pretty sure current expansion has more to do before end game than vanilla, tbc or wotlk.
Vanilla seems centered around the leveling experience because there wasn't anything else. You don't know if it was designed that way or they did the best with the few content they had.
In terms of variety - absolutely. In terms of pacing/speed etc, no - it's end-centric. That's not to say that everything on the way to the endgame isn't quality (in fact, lack of quality content in WoD "open world" is not at all the case), but you run out of it very, very quickly even on your first char, and all the alt levelling can be done in an extremely speedy way. You don't really need to spend much time in the world. That's my point.

And yep, that was also my point about vanilla. It was about levelling, grouping up was natural because everyone was "out there", questing or farming or making that 40-minute trip from STV to Scarlet Monastery. The underdeveloped conveniences and the lack of instant-ish endgame (or quick leveling alternatives) pretty much resulted in creation of communities and player interactions. You don't need communities now - unless you're doing endgame.

I think what really hurts games like WoW is the linear focus on zone design. If you look back to older games like EQ and the like, zones often had a mix of varying levels of mobs, even dungeons were designed in such a way to be more than a single narrow level range. This gave more activity to the older zones once people got higher level. Also, it was quite common for them to put new content into old zones for higher level expansions.

Those who seem to think the game is all about end game... well... what do they do when they try an older game? If they try EQ 2 for instance, do they rush as fast as they can to max skipping 11 expansions of content? If so, then game designers are in a pickle. You can't please that crowd with these types of cRPG systems. Better to make more of an FPS MMO without levels, without content related development and let them go at it. I guess that is why Smed was saying making content was a waste of time. I agree, if... you are appealing to that crowd.
 

Angthoron

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In short, they don't look at older games.

WoD actually has some level differences in the zone - you can run into L100 (possibly also elite) mobs in a L90-93 area, so they did make a step towards fixing this. But yeah - it is one of the problems, especially for old world content.
 

Xenich

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In short, they don't look at older games.

WoD actually has some level differences in the zone - you can run into L100 (possibly also elite) mobs in a L90-93 area, so they did make a step towards fixing this. But yeah - it is one of the problems, especially for old world content.

When you say "run into", do you mean like an occasional encounter? They always had that to an extent (some much higher level mob patrolling the zone). WoW did do some mix of higher levels in early WoW as well, but it was very limited (the Dragonkin in the marshes). When I think of how they should design zones, it is more of how you would store data in a stripe configuration across multiple drives. You would end up with zebra like content with each zone having a wide range of mobs at different levels. It would make more sense that way and work well with some story arcs. It would artificially gate easy travel into some areas (unless one is clever) and it would bring longevity to the content. Heck, make the zones big enough too so you can add things in over time without telling people, leaving them to constantly go back to the older zones. Maybe even put in tricks like Kithcor forest from EQ where at night, the undead come out and they are way above the daytime level of the zone. These are all features that breath life into the content and give reason for a person to return as well as making the lower levels more exciting, measured, and purposeful. Though this type of design isn't appreciated by the "masses" today.
 

Xenich

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Another thing I think contibutes to this is "quest hub" design. It allows people to see pretty much everything there is to a given area generally. I think they need to go away from that, make quests hidden (no more quest indicators). People should have to talk to people/mobs (if they have the language), find items that are mystery type quests that require people to search over multiple zones, various drops, etc... to complete. EQ did this, where some quest might lead you back to a low level zone where an NPC/Monster might now respond to a given item or knowledge to continue a quest, provide an encounter, etc... This also makes low level content worthy again. What happens is instead of being a pointless narrow corridor of content that is discarded at each step, you now have a dynamic game that keeps growing and contains life in its older content zones. This overlapping in design can span years of content development, layering layer upon layer of content over existing content. I don't mean "replace" content like WoW did, but but adding it. What you get when you do something like that is extremely deep environments, similar to how for instance EQ2 was (it no longer has a lot of the depth as they dumbed down and removed a lot of content on their "revamp" of the game). That is how I think you can build worthy content, but... as I said previously, this doesn't market well to the masses. The very thing they demand is the very thing that is killing the games. /shrug
 

abija

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That's done in WoW, just scarcely because they have some common sense.
 

Norfleet

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In short, they don't look at older games.
Game designers never seem to. This is why solved problems that were long since resolved in previous games continue to resurface over and over. Take shitty pathfinding. This is a recurrent problem in games. There is absolutely no reason for this: Pathfinding is a solved problem that has been done correctly in games of the past already. Shitty netcode is another one: GOOD, correctly working netcode was done AGES ago, and yet people continue to repeat shitty mistakes despite the fact that the correct solution is already available. People just aren't into learning from the past. Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it.
 

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