The Mass Effect 3/BioWare Thread

[Athelas]

When I come home from a long day at work, make dinner, clean up after dinner, and help put my little dude to bed, I've got about half an hour to do something on my own time before it's time for me to do evening chores and head for bed.

Conclusion: he's not getting any from the missus or if he is, he regards it as a chore. Certainly makes his stance on video game romance much more understandable.

 

[DraQ]

I'm not entirely sure Weekes is that good of a writer. Seems he's digressing into fanfic smut with "You want to ride the bull."

.....That line alone... Weekes has fallen in my esteem. RIP, Weekes.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15098&postcount=32

This is like Jessica Alba saying that she wouldn't strip in Sin City because she didn't want to be seen as just a sex object. Jessica, you are just a sex object. That's all you have going for you. Sawyer, you dowrite masturbatory fantasy indulgence.

When I come home from a long day at work, make dinner, clean up after dinner, and help put my little dude to bed, I've got about half an hour to do something on my own time before it's time for me to do evening chores and head for bed. I'm not looking for a sword-holding simulation complete with gangrenous leg wounds and a terrifying fear of combat. I'm looking to be the hero who whacks bad guys. I'm looking for comfort in the realm of the heroic. Yes, it's an indulgence, because I spent $60 Canadian toindulge myself. It's only a shallow indulgence if it's badly written.

 

[DraQ]

Also:

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters.

Imagine that coming out of the mouth of your DM. Every time I've heard the DM scold the players for wanting to "win", every time, it ends up being one of two things:

1) The players want a simple victory, and the DM wants to give more shades of gray and moral ambiguity, which ends up being a case of the players and the DM wanting two different things.
2) The DM is railroading the players.

If it's (2), you're taking choice away from the players in the hopes of telling a good story. That's either a sign of clumsiness or an indication that you're working in the wrong genre.

If it's (1), well, different people want different things. In a tabletop game with buddies, that's all well and good, and either the game changes or the group breaks up. In a product that everyone paid $60 Canadian to buy, "You are a stupid immature person for wanting that" is a line of argument you want to use carefully.

Um, yeah, well no.

This cuts both ways - "you paid $60 because you wanted something more intelligent? Hahano. We've got to masturbate retards".
The asymmetry is that masturbating retards might just as well be accomplished with some Kleenex which is fraction of the price.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm looking for comfort in the realm of the heroic. Yes, it's an indulgence, because I spent $60 Canadian to indulge myself. It's only ashallow indulgence if it's badly written.

That describes the perfect writer for videogames of SJW mastrubatory indulgence. He is perfect for the job.

2) The DM is railroading the players.

If it's (2), you're taking choice away from the players in the hopes of telling a good story. That's either a sign of clumsiness or an indication that you're working in the wrong genre.

Wow, the hypocrisy of this coming from a Bioware writer. Or the irony, because it was written prior to their most railroaded games.

And yeah, there's a point at which the designers have to delicately tell the customer, "Uh, no, this is what you're getting. You want to complain about it, fine. You want to never buy another one of our products because you couldn't be left-handed? Fine. We will struggle to survive without your sinister presence."

"Sinister presense", left handed... I see what you did there... So deep man! That was so witty! I'm sure you'll become lead writer for Bioware someday! Disregard for the audience, so typical SJW thinking. And little by little, as you "struggle to survive" without more and more of your client base, all you'll end up surrounding yourself with are the loons and freaks, but they are singing you praises, so they must be right, because you know you are the greatest. And then your company goes under.

As a player, I'm insulted

The word "triggered" wasn't invented yet in 2007.

 

[DragoFireheart]

How about instead of forcing games to go one way or another we just make them and let the buyer decide what they want?

 

[DraQ]

How do you call the sinking feeling you get when you realize that in pursuit of fairness and inclusiveness you've managed to make giving virtual handjobs to scary obsessed freaks your only remaining source of revenue?

 

[Dreaad]

Hey at least as the "oldest profession in the world" you know you'll always have a job and skill set someone will want.

 

[tuluse]

How do you call the sinking feeling you get when you realize that in pursuit of fairness and inclusiveness you've managed to make giving virtual handjobs to scary obsessed freaks your only remaining source of revenue?

these days he tends to "largely avoid" the BioWare Social Network forum because of its "increasingly toxic" atmosphere.

"Spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative - not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general," Gaider explained on his blog.

 

[Rehvini]

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15098&postcount=32

This is like Jessica Alba saying that she wouldn't strip in Sin City because she didn't want to be seen as just a sex object. Jessica, you are just a sex object. That's all you have going for you. Sawyer, you dowrite masturbatory fantasy indulgence.

I read the whole of Weekes' comment.
My reaction is well summed up in this face thing:

Confound it. Now every moment I spent admiring the character of Tali seems a sham, as though I had been deceived into seeing something that wasn't there. The author had no intention or clue of what I thought existed beyond the script. Maybe Liz Sroka did, but certainly not anyone that sees their writing as "masturbatory fantasy indulgence." That's plainly sickening. How can an author expect to write anything of worth without placing upon himself a standard of excellence? Humans slip if there's an opportunity; I do the bare minimum any chance I get. I only perform when I am demanded to, or when I demand it of myself.

 

[Lhynn]

Tali wasnt a very good character, was relatively good when compared to other characters in the ME universe, but nothing worth admiring. And was definitely better written and more interesting in the first game than in the second one, but that can be said for almost all characters in those games.

 

[Rehvini]

Aw c'mon. That's not an argument I can engage! Don't use words like "interesting" or "good" and that's it. Tell me what you mean by that.

4. In writing. Don't use adjectives which merely tell us how you want us to feel about the thing you are describing. I mean, instead of telling us a thing was "terrible," describe it so that we'll be terrified. Don't say it was "delightful"; make us say "delightful" when we've read the description. You see, all those words (horrifying, wonderful, hideous, exquisite) are only like saying to your readers, "Please will you do my job for me."

I know I was being subjective myself, but I'd like to discuss this stuff.

How would you define a good character?

 

[Modron]

Aw c'mon. That's not an argument I can engage! Don't use words like "interesting" or "good" and that's it. Tell me what you mean by that.

4. In writing. Don't use adjectives which merely tell us how you want us to feel about the thing you are describing. I mean, instead of telling us a thing was "terrible," describe it so that we'll be terrified. Don't say it was "delightful"; make us say "delightful" when we've read the description. You see, all those words (horrifying, wonderful, hideous, exquisite) are only like saying to your readers, "Please will you do my job for me."

I know I was being subjective myself, but I'd like to discuss this stuff.

How would you define a good character?

Gaider must have got Tali right then because his audience really felt something about her sweat.

 

[Rehvini]

Gaider? Isn't he the lead writer for Dragon Age?

I thought Patrick Weekes was the one with the sweat thing. He wrote Talimance in ME2, ME3, and someone else wrote her in ME1.

 

[Modron]

Failed my Bioware lore rolls, yeah Gaider was just a kneejerk reaction to Bioware+writer.

 

[Dreaad]

Aw c'mon. That's not an argument I can engage! Don't use words like "interesting" or "good" and that's it. Tell me what you mean by that.

4. In writing. Don't use adjectives which merely tell us how you want us to feel about the thing you are describing. I mean, instead of telling us a thing was "terrible," describe it so that we'll be terrified. Don't say it was "delightful"; make us say "delightful" when we've read the description. You see, all those words (horrifying, wonderful, hideous, exquisite) are only like saying to your readers, "Please will you do my job for me."

I know I was being subjective myself, but I'd like to discuss this stuff.

How would you define a good character?

There wasn't much to like or dislike about her. Fairly stereotypical "forbidden" romance, society station replaced by biological roadblock. That's kind of the point involving ALL Mass Effect/Dragonfag (in fact everything post Baldur's Gate 2) characters. They are all one dimensional and romance defined, i.e. Jack is the whore with the heart of gold, Tali is forbidden love, Miranda is afraid of attachment, Liara is the shy, naive girl. I'm assuming the men are just as easily definable. Now just replace the traditional version of all those things with sci fi stereotypes. Over the course of each game and the overall series their growth goes from perfectly dysfunctional to perfectly grown up and confident. Made painfully obvious since this process takes 4-5 conversations. Most people will find at least one of these attractive in the sense that each one appeals more strongly to your fantasy of a perfect waifu. The basic structure, remains an infantile appeal to common fetishes.

Also... father issues, everyone has father issues.

 

[pippin]

From what I gather, Jacob's just a nigga (the priiiiiiiiize sums up his attitude) and Thane is a fucking lizard. You can fuck a lizard and then cry when he dies. This is the only moment when Female Shepard is shown crying.

 

[Caim]

From what I gather, Jacob's just a nigga (the priiiiiiiiize sums up his attitude) and Thane is a fucking lizard. You can fuck a lizard and then cry when he dies. This is the only moment when Female Shepard is shown crying.

Jacob is also the only one who cheats on Shepard in between ME2 and ME3.

The most emotional scene for FemShep for me was when she says goodbye to a romanced Garrus in ME3.

 

[DraQ]

I read the whole of Weekes' comment.
My reaction is well summed up in this face thing:

Confound it. Now every moment I spent admiring the character of Tali seems a sham, as though I had been deceived into seeing something that wasn't there. The author had no intention or clue of what I thought existed beyond the script. Maybe Liz Sroka did, but certainly not anyone that sees their writing as "masturbatory fantasy indulgence." That's plainly sickening.

Knowing is half the battle.

Aw c'mon. That's not an argument I can engage! Don't use words like "interesting" or "good" and that's it. Tell me what you mean by that.

I believe Lhynn was aiming for some diplomatic way to say "less shit".

From what I gather, Jacob's just a nigga (the priiiiiiiiize sums up his attitude) and Thane is a fucking lizard. You can fuck a lizard and then cry when he dies. This is the only moment when Female Shepard is shown crying.

Jacob is also the only one who cheats on Shepard in between ME2 and ME3.

So, even when they aimed for
:incloosive:
they've got

instead?


So much for the quality of BW writing.

 

[Lhynn]

Actually tali is one of the better written bioware companions, shes the only real link you have to the quarians and she does an excellent job at representing her race while being a p. decent character on her own right. On the second game we see more of her as a quarian (sort of, i think the first game did a better job painting a picture of them, meeting them in the second game was underwhelming as fuck) but other than she seems to have become a generic version of herself, to the point where there seems to be less of that character and what is there is a simple rehash.

 

[pippin]

...and in the end she sings.
It's as creepy/awkward as Leliana's song. But other than that, yeah, Tali really seems to be a "character", instead of the other cardboard cutouts we meet during the series. Perhaps when you're playing you tend to find her better than other characters because she actually solves her problems mostly by herself, and she gets recognition from other quarians. Jack, Miranda and other characters "evolve" too but in my opinion it's mostly due to Shepard's influence.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Didn't Sawyer respond to the comment Weeks did (commenting on his comment)?

Anybody have a link?

PS: Tali in the first Mass Effect is just a lore dispenser, she barely has a personality.

 

[Caim]

PS: Tali in the first Mass Effect is just a lore dispenser, she barely has a personality.

Of course: she was just the token character of which there was only one in the game.

 

[yes plz]

Meh, I'd rather have someone like Weekes write for a BioWare game since he fully understands they're just indulgent crap than someone Gaider who seriously thinks he's writing deep, thoughtful commentary on the 'human condition' (seriously, I remember him saying that's what Dragon Age: Origins was about).

 

[Lhynn]

PS: Tali in the first Mass Effect is just a lore dispenser, she barely has a personality.

Eh, independent, strong "teenager" with a hardon for tech and a goal to achieve. Not saying its genius, but its something, and shes immediately useful because of something she did and because of what she can do outside of combat. Unno, i thought she was fine as a character.
But then again, i also thought wrex was fine as a character, and so was liara in ME1. In ME2 both of those characters went to shit far worse than whatever treatment tali got tho.

 

[Duraframe300]

All I'm saying is don't expect a big change in direction or/and quality now that Weekes is at the helm.