Decline The lack of sincerity in RPGs (and gaming in general)

[S.torch]

Probably everyone at this point have noticed that any piece of media these days come with a dripping lack of sincerity that shows itself in the way of endless quips, reddit humour, dumb dialogues and self-referential jokes that never end. Two of the most recent examples of this is Veilguard and Avowed but the whole thing has been going on for longer time. And it reminded me of this intro of the first Baldur's Gate:



I'm not a fan of Baldur's Gate or anything Bioware. But the first time I watched this cinematic it really impressed me for how straightforward it as and despite the clear technological constraints the ambient and direction of the scene doesn't lack grit and weight. I think some of this is missing with modern direction, despite adding a lot to even simple scenes like the one above.

Does anyone feel the same?

 

[Gregz]

Yes. This has been the industry standard for about 5 years now. Gaming is a skinsuited hobby. Look at any modern development team and you'll see why.

We're being told to ignore bad writing/VA/art and focus on gameplay for a reason.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yes, and it's not only gaming, it's modern media - fantasy and scifi in particular - in general. Everything is self-ironic, with the author constantly reminding you that he knows he's just writing silly fiction and isn't taking it too seriously, wink wink nudge nudge, we all know fantasy tropes are kinda weird so let's lampshade it at every opportunity. We don't wanna come across as nerds by taking silly fiction too seriously, do we?

It's fucking terrible and ruins everything it touches. I love reading old 1930s sword & sorcery, many of these stories are completely over the top and out there with imaginative alien creatures and wild sorceries, but they take it completely seriously. Humor, if it appears, comes from the characters themselves rather than the author inserting himself to poke fun at his own tropes. Characters actually care about their world and their quests. The stories take themselves seriously, and therefore manage to immerse you.

A world that doesn't take itself seriously cannot immerse, because it keeps reminding you that it's just silly fiction. And if the author can't take himself seriously, why should you?

The worst examples are, of course, in Marvel and Disney movies of recent years, where characters constantly quip about the things that are happening around them in ways that feel completely unnatural for a person living in that world, and instead is just a wink wink nudge nudge to the audience. I utterly abhor it.

Here's a great example of how horrendous it is, and how it completely destroys the atmosphere of the scene:


You have a chase scene with a shootout, the protagonists driving away while stormtroopers chase them. Laser bullets fly everywhere, it's a scene of high tension and danger. Then some stormtroopers launch into the air with jetpacks to attack the heroes from above. Escalation! Rising danger! Excitement!

Then, one of the characters asks, baffled: "They fly now?"
Another echoes him, even more baffled: "They fly now?!"
The third shrugs and says: "They fly now."

And boom, all the tension, danger, excitement is gone. It's all just a joke now. And it's completely retarded, because one of these characters is an ex-stormtrooper who should know that the army he served up until like five minutes ago uses aerial assault tactics with jetpacks. This little exchange single-handedly destroys all believability of this scene, and the setting as a whole. It stops being a believable universe with people who live and experience in it, and turns into a silly collection of tropes for the audience's entertainment.

A lot of modern games use that same self-referential, un-serious writing style and it immediately kills any immersion you might have had. Pure shit.

 

[Steedless]

This is the end result of thought policing. Hard to write anything genuine when there are "consultants" breathing down your neck.

 

[Harthwain]

Probably everyone at this point have noticed that any piece of media these days come with a dripping lack of sincerity that shows itself in the way of endless quips, reddit humour, dumb dialogues and self-referential jokes that never end. Two of the most recent examples of this is Veilguard and Avowed but the whole thing has been going on for longer time. And it reminded me of this intro of the first Baldur's Gate:



I'm not a fan of Baldur's Gate or anything Bioware. But the first time I watched this cinematic it really impressed me for how straightforward it as and despite the clear technological constraints the ambient and direction of the scene doesn't lack grit and weight. I think some of this is missing with modern direction, despite adding a lot to even simple scenes like the one above.

Does anyone feel the same?

Eh, I would say that "quips, reddit humour, dumb dialogues and self-referential jokes" were present in gaming more than 25 years ago. Fallout 2 comes to mind as probably the most clear example, but other games were doing this as well. What changed is the length, which is why it's more noticeable and annoying than it was in the past.

 

[JarlFrank]

The pop culture references in Fallout 2 were stupid, yes, but despite its silliness the game still takes its premise more seriously than your average modern game. It's not just about content, but about tone, and the tone of writing has shifted heavily towards insincerity.

The tone of gaming 20 years ago, even when it was dumb and self-referential, was more along the lines of "Look at this awesome shit! We're having fun in an awesome fantasy world, fuck yeah!"
Today, the tone is more like "Look at this silly and stupid world with all its silly tropes! But don't worry, we're totally aware of these tropes and don't take it too seriously. Being serious about fantasy is for nerds, right? Ha, anyway, here's some modern social issues that REALLY matter, unlike all this made up fantasy stuff!"

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

I remember reading an essay attacking the use of humor in art to undercut its emotional power. It was written in 1965. This has been going on for a long time.

 

[Poseidon00]

The pop culture references in Fallout 2 were stupid, yes, but despite its silliness the game still takes its premise more seriously than your average modern game. It's not just about content, but about tone, and the tone of writing has shifted heavily towards insincerity.

The tone of gaming 20 years ago, even when it was dumb and self-referential, was more along the lines of "Look at this awesome shit! We're having fun in an awesome fantasy world, fuck yeah!"
Today, the tone is more like "Look at this silly and stupid world with all its silly tropes! But don't worry, we're totally aware of these tropes and don't take it too seriously. Being serious about fantasy is for nerds, right? Ha, anyway, here's some modern social issues that REALLY matter, unlike all this made up fantasy stuff!"

Part of what made Fallout 2 more believable than a modern game was that it was willing to fully accept the implications of its setting. Oh, you live in a lawless wasteland? Well then slavery, pornography, getting roofie'd, killing a kid are all possibilities. Modern games not only don't take themselves seriously, as you say, but they also apply a kindness filter to everything that takes the edge off of anything that may have previously had one. Veilguard and Avowed are both excellent examples of this in their own ways.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's extra hilarious when it's applied to history in some fashion. "Better remove the slavery, because slavery is BAD." "So now we just pretend slavery never existed? Shouldn't we acknowledge that it used to exist, even if we don't condone it today?" "BAD!"

And of course, just to double down on the retardation, we're incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent about the whole thing. Can't show a woman being slapped, even by a villain, because that's just unacceptable. But a 12 year old child killing someone in cold blood? That's a minor evil at best. Really, she's a hero with a tragic backstory. Nipples on screen? Gotta censor that shit, that's XXX rated stuff right there. Genociding an entire harmless culture out of pure greed? Yeah fuck it that'll be a funny game mechanic. Rated T for Teen, depictions of space ships firing lasers at eachother!

 

[Gargaune]

Everything is self-ironic, with the author constantly reminding you that he knows he's just writing silly fiction and isn't taking it too seriously, wink wink nudge nudge, we all know fantasy tropes are kinda weird so let's lampshade it at every opportunity. We don't wanna come across as nerds by taking silly fiction too seriously, do we? [...] A world that doesn't take itself seriously cannot immerse, because it keeps reminding you that it's just silly fiction. And if the author can't take himself seriously, why should you?

Yep, I've said the exact same myself, it's like the entire entertainment industry's been dipped in some sort of corrosive hipster sauce to the point they'd sooner sabotage their own work rather than stop sniffing one another's methane. "Oh, I only do that stuff ironically, you didn't think I was one of those people, did you?" What people? Cameron? Scott? Lucas? Man, taking fiction seriously sure fucked up their social standing. Yeah, I'm sure plenty of people have called ol' George a fat nerd behind his back... and only ever behind his back, for about four billion reasons. But nah, go ahead and be Joss Whedon instead, much more respectable.

 

[rojay]

Yes, and it's not only gaming, it's modern media - fantasy and scifi in particular - in general. Everything is self-ironic, with the author constantly reminding you that he knows he's just writing silly fiction and isn't taking it too seriously, wink wink nudge nudge, we all know fantasy tropes are kinda weird so let's lampshade it at every opportunity. We don't wanna come across as nerds by taking silly fiction too seriously, do we?

It's fucking terrible and ruins everything it touches. I love reading old 1930s sword & sorcery, many of these stories are completely over the top and out there with imaginative alien creatures and wild sorceries, but they take it completely seriously. Humor, if it appears, comes from the characters themselves rather than the author inserting himself to poke fun at his own tropes. Characters actually care about their world and their quests. The stories take themselves seriously, and therefore manage to immerse you.

A world that doesn't take itself seriously cannot immerse, because it keeps reminding you that it's just silly fiction. And if the author can't take himself seriously, why should you?

The worst examples are, of course, in Marvel and Disney movies of recent years, where characters constantly quip about the things that are happening around them in ways that feel completely unnatural for a person living in that world, and instead is just a wink wink nudge nudge to the audience. I utterly abhor it.

Here's a great example of how horrendous it is, and how it completely destroys the atmosphere of the scene:


You have a chase scene with a shootout, the protagonists driving away while stormtroopers chase them. Laser bullets fly everywhere, it's a scene of high tension and danger. Then some stormtroopers launch into the air with jetpacks to attack the heroes from above. Escalation! Rising danger! Excitement!

Then, one of the characters asks, baffled: "They fly now?"
Another echoes him, even more baffled: "They fly now?!"
The third shrugs and says: "They fly now."

And boom, all the tension, danger, excitement is gone. It's all just a joke now. And it's completely retarded, because one of these characters is an ex-stormtrooper who should know that the army he served up until like five minutes ago uses aerial assault tactics with jetpacks. This little exchange single-handedly destroys all believability of this scene, and the setting as a whole. It stops being a believable universe with people who live and experience in it, and turns into a silly collection of tropes for the audience's entertainment.

A lot of modern games use that same self-referential, un-serious writing style and it immediately kills any immersion you might have had. Pure shit.

You are not the target audience for that movie and unfortunately you are also not the target audience for AAA crpgs anymore. The good news is that "fantasy" isn't just for nerds anymore. That's also the bad news.

If you like old-school adventure-fantasy literature, check out H. Rider Haggard and Sax Rohmer.

 

[JarlFrank]

The good news is that "fantasy" isn't just for nerds anymore.

There is nothing good about something becoming mainstream, only bad.

Something being niche is always better for the thing than it being mainstream. I wish 99% of modern fantasy fans had never become aware of the genre.

 

[rojay]

The good news is that "fantasy" isn't just for nerds anymore.

There is nothing good about something becoming mainstream, only bad.

Something being niche is always better for the thing than it being mainstream. I wish 99% of modern fantasy fans had never become aware of the genre.

The niche games are still out there. I mean, "mainstream" shit is always going to be shit. Why waste time worrying about how mainstream shit now has a veneer of "fantasy" on it? Or even a veneer of "dungeons and dragons"? If some indie developer looking to fund a game that still caters to the original audience for crpgs can get that funding because some dumbass investment banker liked BG3 then ok.

I say that as someone who thought BG3 was ok, but also someone who is currently exclusively playing a ToEE mod that is so much better than BG3 and which has an audience that is probably numbered in the dozens.

This world does not always or even often reward talent.

 

[Beastro]

It's fucking terrible and ruins everything it touches. I love reading old 1930s sword & sorcery, many of these stories are completely over the top and out there with imaginative alien creatures and wild sorceries, but they take it completely seriously. Humor, if it appears, comes from the characters themselves rather than the author inserting himself to poke fun at his own tropes. Characters actually care about their world and their quests. The stories take themselves seriously, and therefore manage to immerse you.

This is what makes the 80s Flash Gordon film work.

Had it once, even once, winked at the camera it would have fallen to pieces, but it maintains a charming sincerity all throughout that makes you not care about how silly it is and embrace it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The good news is that "fantasy" isn't just for nerds anymore.

There is nothing good about something becoming mainstream, only bad.

Something being niche is always better for the thing than it being mainstream. I wish 99% of modern fantasy fans had never become aware of the genre.

The niche games are still out there. I mean, "mainstream" shit is always going to be shit. Why waste time worrying about how mainstream shit now has a veneer of "fantasy" on it? Or even a veneer of "dungeons and dragons"? If some indie developer looking to fund a game that still caters to the original audience for crpgs can get that funding because some dumbass investment banker liked BG3 then ok.

I say that as someone who thought BG3 was ok, but also someone who is currently exclusively playing a ToEE mod that is so much better than BG3 and which has an audience that is probably numbered in the dozens.

This world does not always or even often reward talent.

Yeah, this is the upside of something going mainstream- the niche guys are still there, and even get a few extra who do belong in the niche but wouldn't have heard of it otherwise. Nuxcom might be shit for plebs, but it caused a revival in real turnbased tactics games and modding.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Probably everyone at this point have noticed that any piece of media these days come with a dripping lack of sincerity that shows itself in the way of endless quips, reddit humour, dumb dialogues and self-referential jokes that never end. Two of the most recent examples of this is Veilguard and Avowed but the whole thing has been going on for longer time. And it reminded me of this intro of the first Baldur's Gate:



I'm not a fan of Baldur's Gate or anything Bioware. But the first time I watched this cinematic it really impressed me for how straightforward it as and despite the clear technological constraints the ambient and direction of the scene doesn't lack grit and weight. I think some of this is missing with modern direction, despite adding a lot to even simple scenes like the one above.

Does anyone feel the same?

I think it's because westoid liberals are ideologically opposed to the fundamental assumptions that made D&D lore, and fantasy, in general. Fantasy exaggerates and essentialises, liberalism equates and levels. That is why they are attacking the existence of races in nu-D&D.
They are also weak soy cowards on a personal level, so sincerity and seriousness feel threatening, they prefer to kuk signal.

I wonder what a setting they built from the ground up would be like. Maybe they can't do that, due to solipsism. They can only do le quirky fag characters soying around.

 

[thesecret1]

Today, the tone is more like "Look at this silly and stupid world with all its silly tropes! But don't worry, we're totally aware of these tropes and don't take it too seriously. Being serious about fantasy is for nerds, right? Ha, anyway, here's some modern social issues that REALLY matter, unlike all this made up fantasy stuff!"

The reason for all this is simply that the writer is insecure about his work. If you are serious about something and it turns out to be shit, you're made a fool. If you are being ironic about it, however, then you can deflect all criticism with "I wasn't really trying, I farted this out in 5 minutes no problem, why do you even care about some silly video game story?" Alternatively, they'll shove in politics so that criticism can be deflected with "How dare you criticize this? Don't you realize you're literally killing people?"

The reason why so many writers are insecure nowadays is that deep down, they recognize they're hacks. They have no confidence in their work because they recognize they're serving people shit on a plate (even if they'd never admit it) and are terrified by the prospect of someone calling them out on it. Hence they pre-emptively defend themselves this way.

It's sad and pathetic, and a consequence of absolute lack of standards in arts nowadays. Instead of these shitters getting torn to shreds for what garbage they put out, everyone pretends not to see, or even fellates these snowflakes.

 

[Brancaleone]

It's fucking terrible and ruins everything it touches. I love reading old 1930s sword & sorcery, many of these stories are completely over the top and out there with imaginative alien creatures and wild sorceries, but they take it completely seriously. Humor, if it appears, comes from the characters themselves rather than the author inserting himself to poke fun at his own tropes. Characters actually care about their world and their quests. The stories take themselves seriously, and therefore manage to immerse you.

A world that doesn't take itself seriously cannot immerse, because it keeps reminding you that it's just silly fiction. And if the author can't take himself seriously, why should you?

The main thing is that the talent level required for crapping out Joss-Whedonesque content is much, much lower than the talent level required for writing a Robert E. Howard novel. Thus 'ironic' content allows to employ legions of ideologically compliant hacks, who are typically talentless (among other things because ideological conformity prevents them from properly using the tools of their trade) and therefore very easily controlled from above.
And since the main goal of most of nowadays' content is propaganda, it will naturally gravitate towards the 'ironic' approach.

 

[Dark Souls II]

Humor = decline. Irony, sarcasm = absolute cancer.

It's like Nietzsche said in "The Birth of Tragedy", life-affirming incline cultures produce narratives that are serious, bleak & fatalistic. Retard nigger faggot decline cultures produce funny hehe peepee poopoo "you probably wonder how I got here", "yikes", "a faggot... and a nigger extraordinaire!" type of narratives. They do that to mask the abyssmal reality of their dysgenic existence, their very blood an offense to the eternal Creator.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Yet another consequence of judaization of the modern culture

 

[Infinitron]

This is a valid complaint. But keep in mind, this is something that people "on the other side" have also noticed and begun to complain about. For example, I feel like the "cozy games" trend represents a pushback against irony and insincerity.

(Notice some of the reactions from Codexers when I used that term in this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...th-turn-based-combat-coming-next-year.151421/)

 

[Kev Inkline]

Everything is self-ironic, with the author constantly reminding you that he knows he's just writing silly fiction and isn't taking it too seriously, wink wink nudge nudge, we all know fantasy tropes are kinda weird so let's lampshade it at every opportunity. We don't wanna come across as nerds by taking silly fiction too seriously, do we? [...] A world that doesn't take itself seriously cannot immerse, because it keeps reminding you that it's just silly fiction. And if the author can't take himself seriously, why should you?

Yep, I've said the exact same myself, it's like the entire entertainment industry's been dipped in some sort of corrosive hipster sauce to the point they'd sooner sabotage their own work rather than stop sniffing one another's methane. "Oh, I only do that stuff ironically, you didn't think I was one of those people, did you?" What people? Cameron? Scott? Lucas? Man, taking fiction seriously sure fucked up their social standing. Yeah, I'm sure plenty of people have called ol' George a fat nerd behind his back... and only ever behind his back, for about four billion reasons. But nah, go ahead and be Joss Whedon instead, much more respectable.

I was coming to post this here:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuffySpeak

Self awareness and sarcasm has always existed, but as many have already mentioned ITT, today it's the lack of seriousness, trying to appear all ironic, or not believing in your work that makes it suck.

You can take a serious setting seriously with humor sprinkled here and there, without resorting to meta-knowledge or meta-humor (4th wall and all that) or sarcasm. Minority Report's fridge scene comes always to my mind, for example.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I criticize (better, I hate) the lame quippy super-hero movies "humor" with my hearth. It is worse than a virus that contaminated all media.

But irony and self-awareness can be a good thing, when used subtly, implicitly and not with explicit statements, in particular if the setting is over the top, like in Fallout or, just to cite some exemplary movies, like in Dr. Strangelove, Riders of the Lost Ark or Flash Gordon.



Even the Queen's music manage to be completely self-aware, even if the lyrics are straigthforward, without any witty text.

 

[Hydro]

But the first time I watched this cinematic it really impressed me for how straightforward it as and despite the clear technological constraints the ambient and direction of the scene doesn't lack grit and weight.

Not only this, but it is also a captivating prelude to the main story opening it with a rather mysterious premise that keeps you intrigued for the rest of the game: who’s that armored figure, why is he after you? And oh boy it delivers the answers.

Nipples on screen? Gotta censor that shit, that's XXX rated stuff right there.

It always stroke me as super hypocritical, as at the same time we have all these porn web sites with all sorts of fucked up content not only openly available but being popularized by the mainstream media as something normal and wink-wink aww cute.

but also someone who is currently exclusively playing a ToEE mod that is so much better than BG3 and which has an audience that is probably numbered in the dozens.

What’s that?

 

[Alex]