Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The "Indiepocalypse" is now a thing

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,628
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Lots of articles these days about the impending death of indie games on PC. Too much to copy-paste them all, but here's a summary:

The hot topic for independent developers these days is the so-called “indiepocalypse”. It’s the notion that indies are going to have an increasingly difficult time making a living now that mobile and Steam are both “flooded” with games. Indiepocalypse posts tend to focus on 5 key ideas:
  1. There is too much competition, especially now that so many games launch on Steam each week.
  2. Various charts are showing bad things, such as revenue per game declining.
  3. The App Store is a wasteland. Steam will now become a wasteland.
  4. A few high profile indie games have had weaker-than-expected launches lately. Surely this means that the apocalypse is upon us?
  5. Triple-I independent games are going to force indie budgets to rise inexorably, mirroring what happened with AAA.

Good reads:

The mathematical analysis that kicked off the meme: https://medium.com/@TonyPlaysGuitar/rat-race-to-the-steam-store-703ac031e41
A skeptical take: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RyanClark/20150908/253087/The_5_Myths_of_the_Indiepocalypse.php

I'll quote this one: https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/indipocalypse-or-the-birth-of-triple-i-eba64292cd7a

Indipocalypse, or the birth of Triple-I?

I’ve been lucky enough to watch the games industry ebb and flow through a few different cycles now, and it’s clear we’re just about to embark upon a fresh transition. This time, it’s the indie space that’s changing, but a lot of these changes mirror the various twists the industry has taken in the past. More than anything though, it resembles the change we saw when the PC/Console game business of the late 90’s became the juggernaut we now call “Triple A Development” and in the process crushed everything else in sight.

There’s a lot of suggestions that we may be headed towards an “Indie Extinction Event” as the number of titles from known indie developers that fail to find their market increases. There was a time when simply getting on Steam was enough — but with the opening up of the Steam marketplace, that’s stopped being true.


1*5iCLVhBTsc8H1eWx3I2PZg.png

Thanks to @Steam_Spy for the graph, and for the data that sparked the conversation.


I don’t think we are headed for an extinction event, although a lot will change.

Instead, I think we’re about to witness the birth of Triple-I development at a massive scale.
I got to watch the end of the 20 person team development methodology at Irrational and Relic, see Triple A up close and personal at Ubisoft and Pandemic, and then started Defiant Development and watched both the mobile gold rush (and the following mobile consolidation) and now the rise of PC/Console downloadable.

During the course of that development experience, and especially now that we’re guiding a studio through those waters, we keep an eye on the health of the markets we’re launching our games into.

There are many different ways to evaluate the overall health of any particular market, but the rule of thumb I use is simple. Are good games being released, while their developers go broke? If so, steer clear and change your approach.

In short, how many games are making back more than they cost, each month? How does that compare to the number of games that are turning up? How does that relate to quality? The console business stagnated quickly when the money started sliding to the top. In the late 90’s, most of the games in the top 20 in any month would have made back their development budgets (which tended to be in the few million dollar range), and a decent profit to boot. By 2005, game budgets had blown out to tens of millions — and more and more, only the top slots were making enough back to justify the spend.

That experience peaked with the GFC causing risk averse publishers to ditch anything that wasn’t a certified, guaranteed, sequel — and with franchises like Call of Duty making billion dollar opening weeks while the number three title for the week languished in obscurity. Development budgets went up, risk taking went way down, and any game that couldn’t sell 10m copies was cancelled before it was born.

Into the picture came indie + mobile gaming. Games with dramatically lower budgets (generally well under a million) made their creators millions overnight. Suddenly we were back to the 80s/90s — before I got into the industry. We were creating new Carmacks + Garriots left right and center. Young millionaires leaping off the back of titles that they’d developed on their own, or with tiny teams.

The mobile gold rush quickly ended. Big companies like Supercell used their mass to dominate the charts, and now the charts are not only pretty much locked out to independents, they’re also very stagnant. One title alone accounts for almost 10% of the money in mobile — and it’s been the same one for over a year.

There are two ways to make a profitable game for mobile these days — spend an absurd amount of money, or spend almost no money at all. The middle is rapidly getting pushed out. There are always exceptions (like the excellent Crossy Road) but it’s a long way from a gold rush these days. Most importantly, every single month good (and even great!) games fail to make back their development costs. Mobile is a hard place to do business.

That same wave is hitting Steam now, with some slightly different nuances. The whole of this year has been a frenzy of titles (and thanks to Steam Spy for providing hard numbers around this) but in amongst those frenzy of titles there have been hordes of good games that have failed to make their development costs back.

Most recently, Mike Bithell has followed up the huge success of Thomas Was Alone with Volume, which has sold in anything but. Despite a huge investment in the title, despite great press, despite everything — Volume does not reach the new bar for success on Steam.

So what does?
A quick glance over the charts in the last few months shows a number of big studio titles (GTAV, Metal Gear Solid V) sharing the top ten lists with games by independant studios. Far fewer of those are traditional “indie” games however — most of them have been developed by teams that look to me to be far more Triple-I.

What makes a Triple-I studio? Unlike Triple-A, which is defined by the ambition of the game released, I think Triple-I applies more to the ambition of the developer. If they’re a team of 10 or more, working full time jobs in a studio, yet controlling the development, funding, and publishing of their titles — then they’re Triple-I. It’s getting harder and harder for a couch-surfing solo developer to make the games that hit the mark on Steam.

There are some superb examples of that in the industry already — I’m not trying to suggest this has just begun overnight. Supergiant, Klei, Five Lives, Uber and The Astronauts are all examples of studios that embody Triple-I values, and in some cases have done for years.

We’re now in a situation where we see that the games that can make it on Steam are more and more often from mid sized independent developers than from individuals. That’s not going to end the gold rush on Steam, and it doesn’t mean we won’t see solo devs with amazing breakout titles. I just think those will be the exception from here out, not the norm.

As at the birth of AAA development, the bar is rising. Those who manage to keep rising with it will do well, but many will be left along the wayside. I expect to see a bunch more good titles that fail to hit their goals — and I expect to see other developers blaming that on the games, and ignoring the big shifts in the market until it’s too late, and their titles run straight into the same issues.

If things keep pace with the AAA transition, we should expect to see a lot of consolidation over the next few years — potentially towards publishers like Paradox, but I think it’s more likely that developers with commercial success (and free cash) will absorb other devs who’ve created critical hits that have failed to find their market.

Budgets will go up, but the willingness to take risks with those budgets will go down.
In the end, it’s not an Indipocalypse — but it is a coming storm. Those who weather it will emerge into a bigger, tougher indie market where only Triple-I will be good enough to survive.
 

pippin

Guest
It’s the notion that indies are going to have an increasingly difficult time making a living now that mobile and Steam are both “flooded” with games.

"We shot ourselves in the foot, and it really hurts!"
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
Well nobody came up with a better term for it. "Small to mid-sized self-published game development studios" is too long
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
I'm not going to call your retarded games "Triple-I", fuck right off.

There was some Indie faggot whining that his platformer wasn't doing well on Gaymasutra - ‘Good’ isn’t good enough - releasing an indie game in 2015: https://archive.is/4n6yd
 

pippin

Guest
They assume people will like their games, without realizing they are doing a cookie cutter product in a world filled with cookie cutter products.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
There was some Indie faggot whining that his platformer wasn't doing well on Gaymasutra - ‘Good’ isn’t good enough - releasing an indie game in 2015: https://archive.is/4n6yd
They assume people will like their games, without realizing they are doing a cookie cutter product in a world filled with cookie cutter products.
Yeah, it's p. funny how at no point he considers that he was just adding another quirky indie platormer to the pile.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,628
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah, it's p. funny how at no point he considers that he was just adding another quirky indie platormer to the pile.

Did you read the article? He admitted precisely that. "We made a game that nobody wanted to buy."
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
I am a lazy illiterate, I cannot be bothered to actually read the articles to which you linked, and therefore I will respond based on my own (mis)conception of what the doomsayers are doomsaying.

Hogwash!

Let me begin with this: I know of no other creative medium in which so many inexperienced amateurs without industry connections are capable of making real money -- let alone a living! -- as independent content creators. Let me rattle off a few mediums in which you cannot do so:
- Fine art
- Short fiction
- Long fiction
- Poetry
- Classical music
- Contemporary music
- Journalism
- Comic books
- P&P RPGs (and here I am including not just rule-set creators but also campaign creators like GMs)
- Stand up comedy
- Stage (writing, acting)
- Film
- Animation

Now unlike all these fields, game creation is one where, for the last 15 years or so, you could pursue independent creative work and make money with a little talent, a willingness to work hard, and the diligence to pursue projects to the end (and to keep at it after a few setbacks). And even if you didn't make money, you could generate a large and effusive fan-base.

Back in high school, I knew a handful of people who wanted to make games: these include Jeff Hangartner ("Tsugumo"), who I taught some Quick Basic tricks to so that he could make an RPG -- he now supports himself making indie games; Derek Yu (a classmate of mine), who is now a bazillionaire off of Spelunky (back then, he and another classmate of mine were making Eternal Daughter, his first indie game); and Tom Cadwell (whom I met at a summer camp), who's now VP of Design at Riot Games, and got a job at Blizzard off the strength of his indie game Strifeshadow. To be sure, there were some who dabbled in game creation but turned to other pursuits in college -- they're now professors, lawyers, coders at Google, etc. It's not like the "success" rate was 100% -- but it was probably around 20%. I also knew lots of guys in bands, amateur actors, poets and writers -- none of them parlayed that into any meaningful money. No matter how hard you work in those fields, you don't make thousands of dollars unless lightning strikes.

Setting aside my perhaps unusual adolescent group of acquaintances, just look at Wadjet Eye Games: there alone you have a dozen amateur adventure game developers, all of whom made tens of thousands of dollars. Or look at all the Kickstarter projects -- it basically seems like any halfway decent AGS developer could take in tens of thousands of dollars there, too, if Dave wasn't publishing them.

Against that backdrop, these complaints are really weird. The game industry is still infinitely better than any other creative field for independent amateurs. I guess it's sad if that's starting to fade, but I don't think anyone should feel entitled to such a uniquely great situation. I'm grateful for the opportunities in the field, and astonished at how relatively easy it has been.
 
Last edited:

ultimanecat

Arcane
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
631
At what point does "Triple I" mean "just like all the B-tier games made 10+ years ago for genre fans and smaller audiences"?

Minus the source of funding, this would largely be a return to how things used to be done.
 

Talby

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
5,597
Codex USB, 2014
Good, burn it all down. The indie scene has been flooded with shit for years.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
There are still a few solid indie games but the problem now is with Greenlight, all of these bundles, and the retards who 'collect' entries on their Steam list are responsible for flooding the market with crap. I remember first stumbling on to Torchlight 1 in the 'upcoming' games section on Steam. I don't even bother checking that anymore since 95% of it is shovelware 'Look, ma, I'm a developer' crap. That said, if you make a good game, it will still stand out -- word of mouth spreads quickly on the internet.

Most of the 'developers' bemoaning their inability to make money is based on the fact they're making shitty games.
 

Explorerbc

Arcane
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,172
I think niche indie games might still do ok. They may not have millions of fans, but they have a dedicated playerbase and a place in the market since they fill a gap still largely unfulfilled by most AAA/III. So if we are talking about turn-based strategy rpgs, point-n-click adventures etc, they should be able to make some profits if they are good.

However the era of artsy experimental walking simulators and 16-bit nostalgia platformers is over. These are the games most media refer to when they mention indie btw, while they ignore much of the titles belonging to the category mentioned above (I think Legends of Eisenwald was excluded from an indie fest because it wasn't what they meant by indie or something).

So yeah, they praised themselves as revolutionaries and the future of gaming, created all this hype with the press and indie fests, and for a while they convinced us and it seemed like the next big thing so everyone jumped on the bandwagon. But now the bubble has burst. Partly because the initial excitement is gone, and partly because the market is so saturated with shallow games that look all the same. I mean, playing some hipstery game once in a while is ok for a change, but it's not like people are holding their breaths for the next one. My steam library is filled with indies for years and I don't even remember where I got them from.

So yeah, the adventures/crpgs/other niche genres that offer something unique and deep should be ok with a small steady following, everything else will die except from a few very popular devs. They can adverstise them all they want on kotaku and destructoid but the average gamer will try some indie for a while and then go back to his Far Cry or Batman. Not that I blame them.
 

28.8bps Modem

Prophet
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
302
Location
The Internet, Circa 1993
Are you say we've reached peak rogue-like Metroidvania? Say it ain't so!

Judging by the Steam new releases, it's more peak first person horror. Personally, I wouldn't mind more actual Castlevania likes. The roguelite fad can go fuck itself though. You're never going to outdo Spelunky, chaps.
 

KK1001

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
621
No sympathy after hacks bitched about Steam's long overdue refund policy. Burn the good with the bad - I don't care.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
Most of the 'developers' bemoaning their inability to make money is based on the fact they're making shitty games.

This always been true, that we have far more shoveware.

I think this is a matter of perspective, or rather ego ... they somehow brought their own propaganda that "Indy" stand for anything, that somehow they were entitled to sales because they were "artists" and since now they are in a competitive market they are upset that they have to stand with competition, the good ones are just making their games as usual ... the bad ones always looked at it as means to gain financial gain as well as support to their ego.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom