Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[Lesifoere]

Early game is teeth-grindingly bad for an all-drow party, though, especially casters. I know there were people who tried that and named the party "Begran d'Aerth" or however that shit's spelled.

 

[mountain hare]

Icewind Dale I was actually pretty decent. If you've played the shit out of Baldur's Gate II (like I had), and are itching for something different which uses the Infinity Engine, then you can't go wrong with Icewind Dale I.

Honestly, I didn't like Icewind Dale II much. There were too much annoying puzzles (Ice Temple, Fell Wood), and the plot takes a nose-dive about half-way through (the antagonists start off his sympathetic heroes, but then become flanderised into complete monsters). Also, it takes literally minutes to cast all the buffs on your party. It reminds me of an anime, where the characters spend half the episode transforming and powering up.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

It's a strange thing, how IWD II really impoves on the original and is still remembered as somehow inferior. I mean IWD I is nice, yes, but if you think about it - its very basic location progressing with casual stops at main base with little to no sub quests. The game is also kinda short, first locations are honestly shit - undead tombs? shit, temple of fire giants and shit? there isn't even a boss there, just an empty room at the end of nothing, ice temple map? feels like filler.

...and yet it feels nice, especially after the hand.

Then IWD II: some epic intrusion to a goblin camp, epic adventure through the underdark passage. Some smaller "discovered" locations on the way. Skill checks and usage. Diversity in char classes. More actual quests and puzzles. Better encounters and combat, with some epic battles. Better rule system.

 

[Ruprekt]

IWD2 was less pleasant to play. Clunky looking obtrusive UI and no opengl.

 

[mountain hare]

Then IWD II: some epic intrusion to a goblin camp, epic adventure through the underdark passage. Some smaller "discovered" locations on the way. Skill checks and usage. Diversity in char classes. More actual quests and puzzles. Better encounters and combat, with some epic battles. Better rule system.

Ice Temple. Fell Wood. Worthless skills. 5 minutes before every fight to cast your buffs. Fell Wood. Grey morality turns to black morality. Ice Temple. Fell Wood. Less hack and slash. Oh, and did I mention Fell Wood?

Quite simply, Icewind Dale I is a straightforward hack and slash dungeon crawler. You design your characters, and then focus on the hack and slash element. The momentum of Icewind Dale II is punctuated by annoying as hell 'puzzle dungeons' and 'mazes', as well as cutscenes and the obligation to buff every 5 minutes. IWD II is also far more buggy. Charm spells broke my game on several occasions.

One thing about IWD 2's plot which really aggravated me was the whole 'one party army' theme going on. Your Lvl 5 party is constantly expected to collide head on with goblin/orc armies, with little to no military or material support. The prevailing attitude is 'Oh, plz go and recapture Shaneguard bridge from the Horde. We can't afford to send any reinforcements to help, but here's a dagger +1 you can borrow to help you in your efforts'.

 

[Jaesun]

One thing about IWD 2's plot which really aggravated me was the whole 'one party army' theme going on. Your Lvl 5 party is constantly expected to collide head on with goblin/orc armies, with little to no military or material support. The prevailing attitude is 'Oh, plz go and recapture Shaneguard bridge from the Horde. We can't afford to send any reinforcements to help, but here's a dagger +1 you can borrow to help you in your efforts'.

Like every single cRPG ever made?

 

[mountain hare]

No, the expectations in Icewind Dale II are completely different from most other cRPGs.

For example, one of the main quests in the linear as hell game was to recapture Shaengarne Bridge from the Horde. In order to do this, you needed to kill every monster on the map.

Consider that:

- You're about level 5-6 at this point in the game.

- You have shit items, and you're provided with very little material assistance

- You're taking on an entire bloody battalion of the Horde Army

- There is no alternative to killing this battalion in order to complete the quest. You can't sneak around them, bribe them, etc. . You *have* to defeat them in combat.

I've never encountered a scenario like the above in another other cRPG I've played. The expectations of your party are graduated according to their level. Low level party quests are usually involve 'infiltrating' or 'investigating', or clearing out minor infestations, not taking down an entire army. And what the hell are the town mayor and the guards doing, playing with themselves?

I have no problem whatsoever with challenge, and I was able to win quite tidily because I'm an IE veteran. But challenge needs to provided in a plausible manner. The entire Shaengarne quest is contrived and not in the least bit plausible. No leader in their right mind would send 6 poorly armed, low level dudes to retake a strategic point from an entire fucking army.

 

[Excommunicator]

Your expectations should be that Icewind Dale 2 is a combat game.

Facing the hordes was one of the best parts. I soloed the whole game a second time and it was probably the best IE experience I've had

Oh, and

No leader in their right mind would send 6 poorly armed, low level dudes to retake a strategic point from an entire fucking army

You win "quite tidily" therefore you aren't poorly armed and low level for the given situation. You're highly skilled and competent. If the game had forced you to fail it then your argument might apply, but you win it, don't you? Yeah

 

[mountain hare]

If Icewind Dale 2 is a combat game, then it is ridiculous that you are obligated to face down an entire battalion of enemies at level 4 or 5. The only reason you win at Shaengarne is because the AI is retarded.

 

[Jaesun]

If Icewind Dale 2 is a combat game, then it is ridiculous that you are obligated to face down an entire battalion of enemies at level 4 or 5. The only reason you win at Shaengarne is because the AI is retarded.

What other cRPG's have you played?

 

[mountain hare]

Off the top of my head:

- Ultima III, IV, V, VI, VII, Underworld, VIII, IX

- Exile/Avernum series

- Geneforge series

- BG 1 and 2

- IWD I

- Neverwinter nights + expansions

- Vampire: Bloodlines

- KOTOR 1 and 2

- Amberstar

- Dark Heart of Uukyrl

- Fallout

- Arcanum

- Planescape: Torment

 

[Excommunicator]

I don't get it. What does the classification have to do with whether or not it is ridiculous to face a horde of enemies early in the game?

 

[mountain hare]

I never brought up the issue of classification. You mentioned it was a combat game. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to have a combat oriented game, battles should make sense in the context of the setting and storyline. It just doesn't seem plausible that the leader of Targos would send 6 poorly equipped, low skilled grunts to take down an entire battalion of troops, while providing virtually no support. Particularly when the battle has such strategic importance.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Ice Temple. Fell Wood. Worthless skills. 5 minutes before every fight to cast your buffs. Fell Wood. Grey morality turns to black morality. Ice Temple. Fell Wood. Less hack and slash. Oh, and did I mention Fell Wood?

Quite simply, Icewind Dale I is a straightforward hack and slash dungeon crawler. You design your characters, and then focus on the hack and slash element. The momentum of Icewind Dale II is punctuated by annoying as hell 'puzzle dungeons' and 'mazes', as well as cutscenes and the obligation to buff every 5 minutes. IWD II is also far more buggy. Charm spells broke my game on several occasions.

One thing about IWD 2's plot which really aggravated me was the whole 'one party army' theme going on. Your Lvl 5 party is constantly expected to collide head on with goblin/orc armies, with little to no military or material support. The prevailing attitude is 'Oh, plz go and recapture Shaneguard bridge from the Horde. We can't afford to send any reinforcements to help, but here's a dagger +1 you can borrow to help you in your efforts'.

First of all i dont get this "5 min to buff" bullshit. I never had to buff for this long. Also the game is atleast not cheating with some faggot spell trigger shit.

Worthless skills? There are some fairly decent points in the game to use alchemy, persuasion and even lore. Better then the first in my book, although of course nothing super cool it being a dungeon crawler after all.

And there is more then enough hack and slash, there are more and varied (mixed enemy parties) battles encounters.

Yes, fell wood was a bit gay, but the adventure overall was more satisfying in IWD II. It's probably lack of one single "living" location as the Kuldahar in the first, which makes it feel weird. I mean all of the major locations (even Targos) you encounter are abandoned.

 

[mountain hare]

First of all i dont get this "5 min to buff" bullshit. I never had to buff for this long. Also the game is atleast not cheating with some faggot spell trigger shit.

If you want a decent AC, you *need* to cast:

- Cat's Grace (bonus dex)
- Armour
- Ghost Armour (deflect. bonus)
- Barkskin (generic bonus)
- Improved invisibility (generic bonus)
- Haste (generic bonus)

Each casting takes up *at least* one round, which is equivalent to 6 seconds. Let's ignore haste, which is a group buff.

5*6 = 30 seconds for one PC. To get decent AC for 6 PCs = 3 minutes

And that's *just* for decent AC. You'll also want Bull's Strength on your fighters (for + to damage) and charisma on your sorcerer (+ to save penalty against foes). You'll also want stoneskin, mirror image, and Emotion: Hope. That's easily over 5 minutes of buffing, and I haven't even touched on the cleric spells!

If buffing spells are so numerous, and so crucial, then spell triggers should be available to automate the process.

Worthless skills? There are some fairly decent points in the game to use alchemy, persuasion and even lore. Better then the first in my book, although of course nothing super cool it being a dungeon crawler after all.

You get to use alchemy twice throughout the entire game. Persuasion is just gravy, it really doesn't effect anything of significance.

And there is more then enough hack and slash, there are more and varied (mixed enemy parties) battles encounters.

Which is punctuated by bullshit wandering about solving puzzles. It breaks the momentum.

 

[SCO]

keep up the good fight against icewind bore 2


Don't forget to mention the pathetic setting.
Yes i really want to go to a transplanar jaunt to a tropical planet or to the ice temple again to fight demons or that fucking retard on the dragon's eye caves or that stupid time puzzle with only one solution.
If you're trying to put in some story padding in your hack-n-slash game, could you at least make it related to the main quest? Not so hard. The background on the demon sibs on that village was even ok.

 

[kmonster]

If you want a decent AC, you *need* to cast:

- Cat's Grace (bonus dex)
- Armour
- Ghost Armour (deflect. bonus)
- Barkskin (generic bonus)
- Improved invisibility (generic bonus)
- Haste (generic bonus)
...

I guess I know what your problem is. You chose a too hard difficulty level for your skill. Icewind dale 2 scales the difficulty level very well, try an easier difficulty level, you'll meet less monsters which hit less often for less damage.
I played normal mode and I hardly ever bothered casting those spells, for the hardest boss battles more buffing is needed, but I don't even remember ever casting ghost armor or cat's grace for preparation.

 

[SCO]

Ho, here is a guy that chose NORMAL instead of heart of fury with a multiclass team of monk/sorcerors.

Hohoho.

 

[octavius]

I'm just pointing out that if you're going to have a combat oriented game, battles should make sense in the context of the setting and storyline. It just doesn't seem plausible that the leader of Targos would send 6 poorly equipped, low skilled grunts to take down an entire battalion of troops, while providing virtually no support. Particularly when the battle has such strategic importance.

Since 6 poorly equipped, low skilled grunts were able to beat a whole regiment of The Horde it seems The Horde leadership was even worse.
But yeah, it would have been cool if both sides had support troops. After all the Gold Box games could do it 20 years ago. I don't remember the details of this battle, but I guess The Horde could have benefited from the support of mages.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

If you want a decent AC, you *need* to cast:

- Cat's Grace (bonus dex)
- Armour
- Ghost Armour (deflect. bonus)
- Barkskin (generic bonus)
- Improved invisibility (generic bonus)
- Haste (generic bonus)
...

I guess I know what your problem is. You chose a too hard difficulty level for your skill.

This. If you're not into torturing yourself, it is ok to do just basic buffing. Also this is most stupid complaint ever anyway. Buffs take long to cast...wtf seriously.

Anyway some of the puzzles were a bit slow, but i thought they were a nice addition, which made the gameplay more varied. To each his own, i think this balancing out of quest/combat/exploraion was welcomed by some people.
Compared to IWD I we get more quests/puzzles and better combat/rules. We are talking about dungeon crawlers here, so i think IWD I can only be better if you're comparing atmosphere/art/music only. Which is just a matter of personal preferences.

 

[mountain hare]

I guess I know what your problem is. You chose a too hard difficulty level for your skill.

It's the exact opposite. Higher level difficulties require you to make regular use of buffing spells. Hell, there are entire guides dedicated to the design of high AC decoy characters, so that you can survive in Heart of Fury Mode.

Buffs take long to cast...wtf seriously.

Explain why it is a stupid complaint. Explain how spending 5 minutes to buff before every fight of significance does not detract from the game.

 

[kmonster]

I guess I know what your problem is. You chose a too hard difficulty level for your skill.

It's the exact opposite. Higher level difficulties require you to make regular use of buffing spells.

So you chose ("exact opposite") a too easy difficulty level for your skill ? Why didn't you increase the difficulty setting then ? And why did you even bother buffing (and complaining about it afterwards) if the difficulty you chose was too easy for you ?

Hell, there are entire guides dedicated to the design of high AC decoy characters, so that you can survive in Heart of Fury Mode.

Looks as if you're one of those noobs who read the guides but don't understand them. Every balanced party, even the pregenerated ones can get through HoF mode after the normal game without too much trouble, you don't need a decoy character.

Those guides are thought experiments about the most powerful party after cheating up your level to 30.
Are you one of those noobs who tried to copy such characters but forgot to cheat up to level 30 for them to work and therefore struggled to survive with such a crippled party ?

 

[Quilty]

Playing on Heart of Fury with a lvl 1 party can be really fun up to a point. Unfortunately, it just means that enemies have more hit points. I haven't seen them actually use any better powers or spells. They can simply withstand a lot of hacking and slashing, so in my case HoF quickly devolved into a slogfest. Wouldn't really recommend it.

 

[mountain hare]

So you chose ("exact opposite") a too easy difficulty level for your skill ?

Essentially. A high level of skill implies intimate knowledge with the game's mechanics, which is then exploited to excel at a game. Highly skilled players in IWDII will make appropriate use of buffs. This includes the use of spells that add to a variety of armour types, to produce characters that will rarely be hit on Heart of Fury.

Why didn't you increase the difficulty setting then ?

Already played (and completed the game) on the hardest difficulty setting, dude. That's just how I roll.

And why did you even bother buffing (and complaining about it afterwards) if the difficulty you chose was too easy for you ?

Because the appropriate use of buffs is the sign of a highly skilled player. Again, Heart of Fury is quite straightforward, if you have an intimate knowledge of the game's mechanics.

Every balanced party, even the pregenerated ones can get through HoF mode after the normal game without too much trouble, you don't need a decoy character.

If you exploit Power Word: Reload, I guess.

A decoy character makes life much, much easier in a Heart of Fury game, where even basic enemies have hundreds of hit points, increased damage, and an increased bonus to hit.

Those guides are thought experiments about the most powerful party after cheating up your level to 30

Bzzt, wrong. Now I know not to take you seriously.

 

[Neeshka]

Although very linear and mostly devoid of traditional roleplaying dialogue/character elements; both are really good games and possibly IW2 is the best looking infinity engine game ever made.

They "feel" really like what the cold north of faerun would be like.

I'm not sure why people keep saying the combat is bad, I actually liked it. The combat is exactly the same as BG2 so ....

DnD 3.5 rules feel a lot more balance and better adapted to PC gameplay.

Also: SUPERB music. kuldahar and lonelywood themes are spectacular. Jeremy Soule is a genius.