Decline The great evil of save-scumming

[vivec]

I can't really see it. Please, before your passion overrides your judgment, read what I have written below.

What is so wrong with save-scumming anyway? It's a computer game after all. You are supposed to win at the end. I can see the scenarios in which it is bad, namely when the difference in winning or losing an encounter is based solely on chance or at least predominantly based on chance. That as I see it is just a consequence of bad design.

I can think of two alternatives to alleviate this problem: Firstly, make all checks "hard", i.e. there is a simply a skill level requirement that you need to accomplish anything; no die rolls like in NWN that allow you to pass a check. This is not PnP after all. Secondly, make the rolls have a small effect based on the chance like in AoD where you can save-scum but you are punished for it by having to do it a billion times to win a fight without the requisite skill. People autistic enough to do that exist and there is no problem with that. If you are an autist in the other direction, i.e. you want to "iron man" aka torture yourself to finish a *computer game* you are welcome not to use the quick-save system. Just use the save button on exit.

 

[Darth Roxor]

saw the title and was about to barge in to call you a fag

and yet here i am agreeing instead

foiled again

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Everyone knows reroll-scumming is the real problem
"Oh shit I only got 18/31 on my Strength roll"
"Rather than just kind of fucking deal with it and maybe put on some gauntlets of ogre power I'm going to be a little bitch and autistically reroll until I get 18/00"

 

[octavius]

"Gamers just save scum, so obviously the game is too hard, so we must make it easier".

 

[vivec]

Everyone knows reroll-scumming is the real problem

I already considered that in the OP.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Save systems are similar to porn. When you were younger you could be rock hard and ejaculating within minutes just after seeing a naked ankle. But years and years go by, and now you can't even get an erection without seeing 3 midgets in Darth Vader masks raping a morbidly obese woman dressed up as a pope.

Likewise, traditional save systems used to work when we were kids, but now it's hard to get that sense of tension and danger while playing with your hand never leaving F5 button, so people desire more hardcore systems, like iron man variations.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

save scumming is a bona fide game feature there i said it

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Everyone knows reroll-scumming is the real problem

I already considered that in the OP.

Noted, and you presented a suitable solution even. I'm all for punishing munchkinish types with that sort of shit

 

[Pizzashoes]

RPGs allow you to create an overarching story and reloading muddles that up. I just stop playing a game when I lose. The story ends with the death of my character/party/whatever.
AoD's savescumming is not just from combat. You also use it to determine a build's viability or the skill check requirements. It's very annoying to play through, but I had fun by pretending it was not an RPG. Just a tactical puzzle simulator.

 

[vivec]

IHaveHugeNick
That sounds like a dysfunction if you know what I mean.

RPGs allow you to create an overarching story and reloading muddles that up. I just stop playing a game when I lose. The story ends with the death of my character/party/whatever.
AoD's savescumming is not just from combat. You also use it to determine a build's viability or the skill check requirements. It's very annoying to play through, but I had fun by pretending it was not an RPG. Just a tactical puzzle simulator.

I am not sure what to tell you.

 

[Brancaleone]

saw the title and was about to barge in to call you a fag

and yet here i am agreeing instead

foiled again

The Codex works in mysterious ways.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Only newfags who grew up on shitty MMOs and console crap with checkpoints would think saving the game is bad.

 

[JarlFrank]

Let me save my game whenever I want, we're in 2018 ffs.

 

[Pizzashoes]

I am not sure what to tell you.

You could tell me that you love me. But really, only oldfags who grew up on save/reload spam games like Wizardry 6 would think that kind of gameplay makes for good RPGs.

 

[vivec]

You could tell me that you love me. But really, only oldfags who grew up on save/reload spam games like Wizardry 6 would think that kind of gameplay makes for good RPGs.

All I am saying that it's just a *game*. taking it too seriously might be bad for your mental wellbeing. The story does not *end* when you die. It just means that the current iteration attempting to finish the game did.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I never got a problem with saving in any game. I do it in some games, I do it a lot in others and almost never in yet others. Then again, how other people play, and whether or not they play like I play was never a concern for me.

Mais les braves gens n'aiment pas que, l'on suive une autre route qu'eux...

 

[Kutulu]

Let me save my game whenever I want, we're in 2018 ffs.

Agreed!

I decide what i want to redo and what not, its almost like thats another part of all the timewasting shit developer build into games to reach that needed 100+ hrs.

 

[vivec]

Lonely Vazdru

That is the crucial point. Save scumming is a playstyle. If it introduces degeneracy then it's the fault of the design of the game and not the gamer.

 

[AwesomeButton]

But, vivec, didn't you hear - save-scumming and restspamming is Degenerate Gameplay (tm).

Much like other things we do when we are alone, playing a single player game, and no one is watching.

 

[vivec]

Why rest spam when you have broken legs and the terminal case of cancer that can be cured by sleeping in the inn for an hour.

 

[Raghar]

Save systems are similar to porn. When you were younger you could be rock hard and ejaculating within minutes just after seeing a naked ankle.

I'm returning from watching pornhub and trying to find "naked ankle" in search field.

So with a 30 minute delay, I can tell you I wouldn't get all these fuck ups when I'd be willing to reload. But these fuck ups were quite often very enjoyable in retrospects and interesting emerging gameplay, when I survived them...

 

[Tramboi]

Only newfags who grew up on shitty MMOs and console crap with checkpoints would think saving the game is bad.

Like Rogue or Wizardy ?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Like those... what?

What does permadeath have to do with what I said?

Also you can "savescumm" those too. In fact, wasn't savescumming coined for Rogue (or some Rogue-likes) for the action of backing up your saves?

But now newfags call savescumming just loading the game when you die and think checkpoints is a superior alternative.

 

[Pizzashoes]

The story does not *end* when you die. It just means that the current iteration attempting to finish the game did.

If the story doesn't account for you dying, then yeah of course it ends. You can choose to not believe that the character died. And challenging an internet stranger's mental well-being is fucked.

But yes, I think it's degenerate to enforce playstyles in a single player game. That means both encouraging save-scumming and enforcing iron-man. For example, in Wizardry 6 the stats on level-up are rolled randomly, with cool content locked to characters with high stats. That directly motivates save-scumming (or cheating). The opposite direction of save-file removal on death frustrates tons of players or leads to games being too easy. So that's no good, either. I think a happy medium that rewards players for executing content in one-shot would be cool. Maybe, a boss drops better gear if you beat him on the first try.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

'ironman' modes are garbage because you eventually hit a bug and have no prior saves to roll back to and woops have to restart the entire game