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The Future of RPGs

Neanderthal

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And maybe not being party leader. Which is totally retarded unless the party leader is another human player. Guess which is the only RPG in recent times to allow that?

D:OS did a lot right in my eye.

The party leader thing i'm thinking of is not co-op though, more like the game and the AI party leader have a set route and an order in which they do things, you're still in control minute to minute (allmost all gameplay) but you're not making the big decisions of where to go and what to do. Now this can be changed in any number o ways, you could make a logical argument why going somewhere else'd be better, you could bully party into doing what you want, you could persuade wi a few quiet words in shelllike o party leader, you could bribe em or mention some kind o treasure. All these'd opportunities to make your mark on party, on way to seizing power permanently or making the party leader a puppet for your will.

Erm imagine that Dragon Age Origins and instead o that Alistair being a little cunt e develops a spine, first thing he wants to go to Redcliffe and see is uncle Whatsismush, if you did or said nowt when leaving Lothering camp you'd automatically travel to Redcliffe following him, but instead you could influence however you want, persuade, threats, kill etc. You'd still be in control as a player when you got there but you'd have to work to do what you think is best. Ideally i'd want this rewarded mechanically as well.

This could avoid situation where me Half Orc Barb wi low INT, WIS and CHA is telling everybody what to do and where to go, like anybody'd follow the fucking moron.
 

Siobhan

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Real progress for games is necessarily progress in gameplay. And this won't happen without significant progress in areas that aren't even on the radar of game developers (or gamers) at this point: strong AI, machine learning, and natural language processing. Everything else is either irrelevant or has already been done to perfection.

We already have all the technology that is needed for excellent combat --- be it turn-based, RTwP or pure real time --- and plenty of games that have excelled in this area, e.g. Wizardry 7 & 8, ToEE, JA2, Silent Storm, Syndicate (Wars), and recently Fall of the Dungeon Guardian. The same goes for level/world/dungeon design (Deus Ex, Thief, LoG 2, RoA 2 and 3, Chaos Strikes Back, MM6), and story telling (storyfags, insert your favorites here). Level design is still overly attached to Euclidean space rather than making full use of the non-standard geometries that can be created in good engines (e.g. Unreal), and story/plot tends to be of the bland mainstream young adult variety, but this is mostly due to lacking talent and vision, not technical or financial limitations. Overall, we have already seen true mastery in these areas and there is little left to improve on (except for AI, which I'll get to in a second).

Graphics, sound and voice acting are just the perceivable instantiations of the abstract entity that makes up the actual game and thus are pretty irrelevant. Some games can be massively improved by good art design such as Diablo 1, but a good game is good even with ASCII graphics or low poly models and blurry textures. I can think of only one area where games could profit from visual improvements, and that is facial expressions for detective and adventure games. This is also the only case where voice acting can enhance gameplay as a subject's face and voice may provide important clues. But these elements are usually not a big part of RPGs, so presentation is indeed pretty irrelevant.

But there are some aspects of RPGs that are currently done in an incredibly hackneyed manner that limits gameplay. The most pressing one is dialog. Some people here complain that voice acting has reduced the amount of dialog in RPGs. But things already went wrong earlier on with the introduction of the dialog tree. The dialog tree is almost completely devoid of gameplay as it is fully scripted environment in which the player has no agency beyond choosing between a few preordained options. There are attempts to make it more dynamic --- skill checks, general polite-normal-rude"stances", Alpha Protocol's time limit --- but it is ultimately a very limited format that is completely devoid of exploration, creativity, and emergent gameplay. Keyword-based text parsers from the early 90s (and Wizardry 8 :love:) do a little better since the player can discover hidden options that aren't in the standard list of keywords, but it is still a far cry from real-world interactions. An RPG built on a strong dialog system would be a beauty to behold, even for a combat/system/exploration fag like me.

Current industrial-grade dialog AIs and chatbots are still very limited due to a variety of reasons, e.g. the reliance on n-grams models and keywords instead of tree transductions and semantic analysis, but games have several properties that simplify the problem: games have a clear ontology that is imposed by the game engine, the game worlds are sparse (not nearly as much background and history as in the real world), and the player knows virtually nothing about anything. This means that dialog systems for games would be more like expert systems that are designed for a very small niche, for instance online customer support for an ISP or medical prescreenings by phone. These systems already work fairly well in practice. From a scientific perspective they are embarassingly simplistic, and they do struggle with very basic things like the scope of negation, but even with those limitations it would be a large improvement over what we have now. Just make sure you build an interesting game around it, otherwise you end up with dull shit like Facade.

Strong AI and machine learning will also be important to move games away from static scripted environments towards dynamically evolving systems. For example, NPC schedules are still rare because they involve a lot of scripting, are hard to debug, and barely noticeable to most players. Ideally, though, these schedules shouldn't be needed to be scripted at all and instead emerge from a system of interacting agents that operate according to a few basic principles (get plenty of good quality sleep, make sure your store is open when customers are around, make sure your store is fully stocked, etc). The same goes for NPCs and environmental interaction --- an enemy should be able to infer from the fact that water multiplies shock damage that they should throw that bucket of water at the player before using the shock trap. This kind of strong reasoning has been worked on in AI for decades, and results are pretty meagre so far. But this is once again because the real world is incredibly complex and we have no good ontology that formalizes the basic world knowledge humans possess. Games already come with a fully programmed ontology, so they would be the ideal testing ground for these models.

tl;dr Real progress must be progress in gameplay. There's no revolutionary advances waiting in the usual areas such as combat, story or visuals, but a focus on strong AI could open up completely new types of gameplay. It's not gonna happen any time soon, of course, because the know-how simply isn't there in the industry and it's more profitable to keep cranking out the same old dreck. And localization would be pretty much impossible. But maybe researchers will notice that games are a great environment for testing their models and this might lead to some interesting collaborations.


Fake edit: Woo, 100th post!:happytrollboy:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm a bit surprised by the number of people proposing these all-encompassing technical and simulation improvements as the answer to "what do future RPGs need".

It's not that they're wrong, but that's hardly the first thing that comes to my mind. What do future RPGs need? How about designers with lots of cool new ideas, and the ability to create cool worlds full of those ideas.
 

Zanzoken

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The AAA space has virtually nothing to offer the average Codexer and I will be shocked if that changes.

It's really exciting that there's a healthy middle market for medium-sized teams and budgets, though... who would've thought a few years ago we'd have games like Pillars, D:OS, Shadowrun, and Torment. And hopefully there will be also be room for the small devs to make a living so we can get more quality titles like AoD and Serpent.

Going forward, I would like to see indie projects take a more focused approach with regards to features and scope. I think both developers and players get caught up in the tropes of what an RPG "should be" and then devs feel pressured to check all the boxes -- regardless of whether they have the time, energy, and skills to design and implement each system in a satisfying way.

Point being -- not every RPG has to have 50+ hours of story content. Not every RPG has to have crafting. Not every RPG has to have unique companions each with their own unique dialogues, companion quests, etc. Not every RPG has to have sprawling player homes to upgrade and fill with junk. Not every RPG has to have in-game books filled with hundreds of pages of exposition and lore.

I want to see devs pick a few systems, design a reasonable amount of content around them, and then polish it until it shines. It's better to really good at a handful of things than to be mediocre at everything.
 

Trashos

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I'm a bit surprised by the number of people proposing these all-encompassing technical and simulation improvements as the answer to "what do future RPGs need".

It's not that they're wrong, but that's hardly the first thing that comes to my mind. What do future RPGs need? How about designers with lots of cool new ideas, and the ability to create cool worlds full of those ideas.

Agreed!

How come we don't get any games with the character creation of Arcanum, the C&C and flexibility of the Fallouts, the encounter design of BG2, the story of PST, and a satisfying combat system all in one? As far as I am concerned, we should be getting plenty of games like this, or at least respectable efforts.

I am not even discussing innovation here, it has all been done before in small chunks. Innovation is great, but we are not being offered even what should have been considered standard by now.

The technological challenges are going to be solved by the AAA industry (and then gradually be available to smaller developers as well). On the creative side of things, the ship is heading for the iceberg.
 

Zanzoken

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^^ Not trying to single you out or anything but the sentiment in your post is exactly what I was talking about in mine. You maybe didn't realize it but you are basically asking -- "why isn't every new RPG the best RPG ever". And I think that's what a lot of players unknowingly expect.

But no game has ever managed to be great at everything, nor will it be. Even the classics you mentioned -- considered to be the best of the best -- manage to be spectacular in only a few areas. Otherwise they all have significant flaws.

Look at the Codex GOTY from last year -- Divinity Original Sin. It's a great game that I believe really excelled in one area: combat. The character systems, encounter design, etc all came together in such a way that the combat was challenging and required good use of tactics, but also allowed you to be creative and experiment. It was a terrific achievement for Larian.

Unfortunately the game is very mediocre in other areas, and flat out bad in some places. Sven Vincke himself has admitted to this on his blog:

http://www.lar.net/2014/12/18/leaked-the-larian-plans-for-20152016-and-beyond/

In one paragraph and unsurprisingly, my biggest issues with the game are the same things most people had issues with. I think the main story can be told a lot better and has more potential than is apparent, that combat falls a bit flat after act 1 and that crafting,inventory & trade UIs could use a bunch of improvements. Certain dialogs should be done better, there’s still a lot of feedback missing from tooltips & skills, and at higher levels character progression isn’t as cool as it should be. Our loot system doesn’t behave as hoped for, and the companions could use some work.

Add a few hundreds to that and you have my list but, and it’s an important but, despite all this, I still think it’s a pretty good game. There’s plenty of good stuff in there that compensates for the bad, even if there’s a lot that can be improved. And there’s another but too. Those criticisms are not aimed at anybody in our team. They are merely the result of the constraints we worked under when making the game.

He goes on to talk about the constraints, and says -- "in about 80% of the cases, bad things in D:OS are related to compromises made because of lack of time".

So what if, instead of trying to cram in every RPG system ever and make this huge game, they had said at the start...

Okay, let's aim for about 40 hours of content... that's reasonable for our budget and we can focus on making each hour really count.

We're going to make the combat in this game awesome from start to finish. That's priority #1.

Co-op gameplay and the interaction between the two PCs is our second big goal. We want to make those dialogues really intriguing, and come up with a fun and innovative way to resolve disputes between the two mains.

We want to tell a good story but we'll keep it simple -- it's more of a backdrop for the rest of the action.

We can skip companion NPCs -- the players can just roll generic henchmen to fill out their party. The itemization will be fairly limited, and we'll cut crafting altogether. Instead of a stronghold we'll give players a basic campsite, just to store items and level up between missions.

I'm guessing the final game would've been more polished, and instead of this mix of good and bad we would've had a game that was all wheat and no chaff.

That's why we need to temper our expectations as players and encourage devs to focus only on what's important to them. Then maybe we can get true masterpieces instead of just flawed gems.
 

pippin

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You don't really need new ideas, just consistent design and polished presentation.
And stats, for starters. And lots of skills. I want my Excel Spreadsheet Simulators back.
 

Telengard

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The question of what rpgs need doesn't matter in the slightest, because it has nothing to do with what's going to happen. VR is going to happen, and that is going to combine with Skyrim III and Loverslab into a brilliant trifecta that will generate the best-selling RPG of all time, with the kind of sales where people laugh at the piddly 20 million that Skyrim did. However, Skyrim III huzzahs will only last until Sengoku Rance XXI comes out, with its direct-feelz multi-port skin-soft controller. And on that day, rpgs will never be the same again. From that day forth, the one and only defining trait of rpgs will be wank-quality.

And thus will the rpg end.
 

CrustyBot

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Codex 2012
I'm a bit surprised by the number of people proposing these all-encompassing technical and simulation improvements as the answer to "what do future RPGs need".

It's not that they're wrong, but that's hardly the first thing that comes to my mind. What do future RPGs need? How about designers with lots of cool new ideas, and the ability to create cool worlds full of those ideas.
Whilst you're not wrong, I think the sentiment comes from the fact that RPGs were consistently breaking new ground design and mechanics wise in the 80s and early 90s. Yet that has stalled for almost 20 years. The way Codex looks at games like Alpha Protocol, or Divinity: Original Sin suggests to me that people here are willing to overlook flaws if a game can have a well developed innovation.

Beyond that, when you read a title like "Future of RPGs", you think about the possibilities and things not done yet in the genre. If one said that "good content" were the future of RPGs, then the response would be "duh". Of course you'd hope that RPGs have good content and it'd be a complete indictment of the people working in the genre if that became an impossibility or not a focus.
 

Viata

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I will care for the future of RPGs when a better RPG than A Dance with Rogues is made.
There is some already, have a look there http://www.dlsite.com/ , so yes it requires to find either fan made translations, a strong will and motivation to learn or even both.... But i bet you will accept the challenge like a true codexer.Too many titles to test and play ina lifetime i think there.
Fuck, wish I could buy those games.


http://www.dlsite.com/soft/work/=/product_id/VJ009177.html
It even has Legend of Heroes: Trails in the sky the 3rd for PC. Damn.
 

Mortmal

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I will care for the future of RPGs when a better RPG than A Dance with Rogues is made.
There is some already, have a look there http://www.dlsite.com/ , so yes it requires to find either fan made translations, a strong will and motivation to learn or even both.... But i bet you will accept the challenge like a true codexer.Too many titles to test and play ina lifetime i think there.
Fuck, wish I could buy those games.


http://www.dlsite.com/soft/work/=/product_id/VJ009177.html
It even has Legend of Heroes: Trails in the sky the 3rd for PC. Damn.
Thats like one whole universe we have barely any contact with. There's even some indie blobbers, there must be something good amongst hundreds of those titles but ill never know.

Typing grimoire in search gives you the oddest results there :
RJ160376_img_main.jpg
 

Mustawd

Guest
The question of what rpgs need doesn't matter in the slightest, because it has nothing to do with what's going to happen. VR is going to happen, and that is going to combine with Skyrim III and Loverslab into a brilliant trifecta that will generate the best-selling RPG of all time, with the kind of sales where people laugh at the piddly 20 million that Skyrim did. However, Skyrim III huzzahs will only last until Sengoku Rance XXI comes out, with its direct-feelz multi-port skin-soft controller. And on that day, rpgs will never be the same again. From that day forth, the one and only defining trait of rpgs will be wank-quality.

And thus will the rpg end.


ChickenLittle.jpg
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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RPGs have no future. Forever stuck in the past because the old developers prefer to make the exact same game they made 20 years ago and all the younger ones can do is copy the old shit but with cooldowns.
 

Trashos

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Zanzoken,

I don't mind at all, I find your thoughts interesting. I think we are both right in a way.

So, I would like to analyze the situation by asking a question:

My requirements are the following (at the minimum):
1) Character creation of Arcanum.
2) C&C, flexibility and nonlinearity of the Fallouts (1, 2 & NV).
3) Encounter design of BG2.
4) Story of PST.
5) Combat system of... oh, I don't know. Combat that allows you to approach it from a lot of different angles, but still challenges you and forces you to question your strategies while you are having sex with your girlfriend.
6) After all the basics (see above) are taken care of, innovate with cool new ideas.
7) All the above in each single title.

Now, the question is this: How big does a team need to be in order to do that?

Naturally, I don't expect small indie teams of a couple of dudes to attempt such a thing. I agree with you, Zanzoken, that such teams should try to do fewer things really well. But what the hell are the mid-sized companies doing?

True, the games I referenced are the classics. But now the stage has been set. The character creation system of Arcanum must have been a nightmare to build and present (not to mention balance, where Troika failed). But now every developer can see it finished and improve on its ideas. Improving upon something that already exists is not as hard as creating the original.

Not to mention, all those titles were 15 years ago. Are you really telling me that 15 years later, developers still cannot combine the good traits of the classics? I am not sure I can accept that. Why am I getting trash mobs to fight and character creation screens for dumbfucks 15 years after the classics?

As for Larian, I am happy with what they accomplished. But now they have their engine, and I expect them to build upon it and move towards what I described. If they don't...
(no pressure, Larian)
 

Trashos

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RPGs have no future. Forever stuck in the past because the old developers prefer to make the exact same game they made 20 years ago and all the younger ones can do is copy the old shit but with cooldowns.

I wish that was the case!

I started playing rpgs a couple of years ago, tabula rasa and with an open mind. Still, the best ones I found are the old ones. In the case of rpgs, I don't think it is merely nostalgia that makes older games seem better. They were actually better.

Btw, there was innovation in the meantime. Cinematics, mouse wheels etc.
 

Belegarsson

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
D:OS doesn't have any of these:

8. Use something else other than fucking healing potions, show some fucking imagination you dimwitted cunts and dare to step away from the tropes just a little bit.
15. Magic systems that are fun, useful and have some inherent dangers, kinda like wild magic but a bit more reliable. Gives us tools and makes you think of possibilities just from reading the spell lists, rather than a dry recitation of damage, range and similar shit that makes the magical so mundane.

Though to give Larian credit, they did try, and in striving Larian did make a fun game out of it.
8. Didn't DOS allow characters to heal by poison and bloodstain if they have specific traits? I think its implementation was decent enough for a breaking-the-tropes innovation.
15. Environmental effects like wet + Chill = frozen, fire + poison = boom and more, some affect on characters but don't do damage like cripple or blind or decrease various stats. However, I would like buff and debuff spells have more variety, for example an energy barrier that cover around spell user and does things like deflecting arrows (giving party members an advantage while waiting for cooldown), water barrier stops fireball... debuffs on enemies can be also self-casted to give caster an advantage, like cripple and bleeding can turn into temporary immune to piercing and bleeding damage.
 

mondblut

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2016: Kickstarter fad ends, Inxile, Larian and Obsidian go back to make crap for ADHD kids, fail.
2020: VR googles and vagina peripherals make all genres merge into Second Life 2.0, EA and Activision go bankrupt
2030: Holodecks are commercially introduced, videogames disappear overnight
2040: With everyone busy fucking in holodecks, the world crumbles
2050: Cleve finishes Grimoire, the last videogame on earth
 

Snorkack

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RPGs have no future. Forever stuck in the past because the old developers prefer to make the exact same game they made 20 years ago and all the younger ones can do is copy the old shit but with cooldowns.
If only that were true! Please show me those WoX, Wizardry 7, Goldbox, Ultima... remakes you must be referring to. Or which games from 20 years ago are you talking about?
 

Siobhan

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I'm a bit surprised by the number of people proposing these all-encompassing technical and simulation improvements as the answer to "what do future RPGs need".

It's not that they're wrong, but that's hardly the first thing that comes to my mind. What do future RPGs need? How about designers with lots of cool new ideas, and the ability to create cool worlds full of those ideas.
Maybe I'm misconstruing what you mean by cool ideas. To me it sounds like more varied settings, a plot that doesn't involve saving the world, and a couple of other things that have been discussed in previous threads. And that's like answering "What is the future of transportation" with "Every car will have a dock for your phone."
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Not to mention, all those titles were 15 years ago. Are you really telling me that 15 years later, developers still cannot combine the good traits of the classics? I am not sure I can accept that.

You have things backwards. It's because 15 years have passed that you have to accept it. The stage hasn't been set, it's been demolished. It turns out that Chris Avellone and co didn't have a big binder full of ideas and lessons learned, all ready for their triumphant return to making classic RPGs. They weren't thinking about those classics and never expected them to come back.
 

Neanderthal

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I agree that its probably not the oldguard who are gonna give us the next groundbreaking CRPG, I reckon it'll be somebody like Whalenought, enthusiastic newcomers wi a dream who still have some ambition, at one time i thought it might be CDPR who'd do this because original Witcher showed such pronmise and ambition, broke so much new ground and stepped away from beaten path. But they've gone cinematic heavy and lowest common denominator friendly, still good just not what i'd hoped for. But I reckon it'll be a firm like that, wi too much ambition and too little sense to realise that they are attempting the impossible.

Your big firms have their set path, doubt they'll break from it now or try owt new or exciting.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Nah, that's not right either IMO. Just look at how the classics were made. They were developed by young guns with lots of ideas...who were hired by established developers with lots of resources. In a way, the "indie movement" is detrimental to the development of new classics, because it encourages the most passionate people to strike out on their own, which isn't necessarily the most efficient use of their talents. Imagine something like the Unity Engine being around in the 90s and a young Avellone spending years making his own RPG with that instead of joining Interplay. You know it could never have been as good as PS:T.
 

Neanderthal

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I'm not sure any established developer wi lots o resources'll turn to this genre anymore or greenlight owt ambitious, still hope they do but I can't seeing em doing owt but following same old path o decline. Might be i'm just a miserable drunken cunt though.
 

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