The Expanded CRPG Book is out!

[Jack Of Owls]

Been browsing the new edition with its new entries. Looks very solid. Nice to see FE including his recent write-up about the history of Chinese RPGs. Very professional presentation, I must say. You don't get this stuff in other books of its type; certainly not in Matt's material. Best resource of its kind.

 

[Hag]

I quickly browsed the new version, the sections at the end about RPG Maker and foreign games are great. Also like the size of the opus, you can't read it cover to cover but you open it at random and find good info on stuff you did not know. Really makes you want to discover new games.
Good job.

 

[Lucumo]

Hm, no Vampires Dawn (2001) in the RPG Maker section, despite it having over 2 million downloads to this day, spawning sequels, mobile ports, book adaptations and being put on CDs/DVDs of computer magazines over the years. I guess since it was German only...that's that.

Also noticed typos and such when I quickly glanced over some new content earlier, like: "While it's true that most people will never be able to a game that...".

 

[ScrotumBroth]

Still can't get over Beamdog shilling... it's like a diarrhea splattered over a beautiful dinner table.

MMORPG section is painfully incomplete, like how can you not mention Eternal Lands, Conquer Online, Knight Online, Silkroad Online, Anarchy Online... Everything that came before WoW was crucial in developing the genre. It deserves more than that poor entry.

Look I don't mean to be negative, congrats and all that on getting the obscurities in there.

 

[felipepepe]

Everything that came before WoW was crucial in developing the genre. It deserves more than that poor entry.

As I mentioned before, these sections were never meant to be comprehensive, they are an introduction to lead people to other, more in-depth content. The book is about CRPGs, I cannot talk about "everything that came before WoW" without making another, different book.

Hm, no Vampires Dawn (2001) in the RPG Maker section, despite it having over 2 million downloads to this day, spawning sequels, mobile ports, book adaptations and being put on CDs/DVDs of computer magazines over the years. I guess since it was German only...that's that.

This is the other problem here: all these scenes are EXTREMELY fractured. I spent weeks reading about RPG Maker games, watching videos, going to forums, seeing lists and articles on its history... there was some mentions of Vampires Dawn, but you would never suspect it was a big game looking at its RPGMaker.net or RPG Maker wiki pages. Similarly, you'll rarely read about Aëdemphia outside of French circles, or of stuff like 金のなる木 outside of Japan.

Thanks for the tip. Will look into it, might actually update the book to replace Aveyond for this one, seems a lot more interesting.

 

[Lucumo]

This is the other problem here: all these scenes are EXTREMELY fractured. I spent weeks reading about RPG Maker games, watching videos, going to forums, seeing lists and articles on its history... there was some mentions of Vampires Dawn, but you would never suspect it was a big game looking at its RPGMaker.net or RPG Maker wiki pages. Similarly, you'll rarely read about Aëdemphia outside of French circles, or of stuff like 金のなる木 outside of Japan.

Thanks for the tip. Will look into it, might actually update the book to replace Aveyond for this one, seems a lot more interesting.

Exactly, which is why it wouldn't really show up on non-German websites like RPGMaker.net and such. We generally have/had our own pages (including different official ones).

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I know it's been updated over the years, but I could never play those older RPG Maker games. Technically, they always feel... wrong on my system. Even in 16-bit emulation of old jRPG games, I never get that feeling of wrongness that I do with RPG Maker stuff. The lack of smoothness is overwhelming to me.

 

[felipepepe]

This is the other problem here: all these scenes are EXTREMELY fractured. I spent weeks reading about RPG Maker games, watching videos, going to forums, seeing lists and articles on its history... there was some mentions of Vampires Dawn, but you would never suspect it was a big game looking at its RPGMaker.net or RPG Maker wiki pages. Similarly, you'll rarely read about Aëdemphia outside of French circles, or of stuff like 金のなる木 outside of Japan.

Thanks for the tip. Will look into it, might actually update the book to replace Aveyond for this one, seems a lot more interesting.

Exactly, which is why it wouldn't really show up on non-German websites like RPGMaker.net and such. We generally have/had our own pages (including different official ones).

Yeah, but how you track that? It goes back to the point that we have no good research on any of this... RPG Maker was popular across the world, there was a big scene in Taiwan, several fanzines in Brazil, etc. But it's all wikis and isolated groups, we never had anyone reach out to communities in multiple languages, get their history and make a reference that manages to rank what's important and what's not.

Bottom line is: video game history is a nightmare to track, ESPECIALLY anything related to PCs. There's countless books, documentaries, websites and youtubers going over every miniscule detail of console releases, but PC gaming is just the nostalgia for Doom, Sierra, Ultima, Lucasarts and 20 books on the social implications of being an elf inside WoW. Meanwhile, online gaming is basically Bartle & Koster. It's like the only books on rock music history were written by the Beatles, it's insane.

Anyway, I'll give a second look at the RPG Maker part, maybe rework that part for the printed version. My goal with this edition was to expand the canon beyond just English & Japanese games, clearly I failed there.

 

[Lucumo]

Exactly, which is why it wouldn't really show up on non-German websites like RPGMaker.net and such. We generally have/had our own pages (including different official ones).

Yeah, but how you track that? It goes back to the point that we have no good research on any of this... RPG Maker was popular across the world, there was a big scene in Taiwan, several fanzines in Brazil, etc. But it's all wikis and isolated groups, we never had anyone reach out to communities in multiple languages, get their history and make a reference that manages to rank what's important and what's not.

Bottom line is: video game history is a nightmare to track, ESPECIALLY anything related to PCs. There's countless books, documentaries, websites and youtubers going over every miniscule detail of console releases, but PC gaming is just the nostalgia for Doom, Sierra, Ultima, Lucasarts and 20 books on the social implications of being an elf inside WoW. Meanwhile, online gaming is basically Bartle & Koster. It's like the only books on rock music history were written by the Beatles, it's insane.

Anyway, I'll give a second look at the RPG Maker part, maybe rework that part for the printed version. My goal with this edition was to expand the canon beyond just English & Japanese games, clearly I failed there.

Yep, it's tough. Looking around a bit, it seems like we got a wiki which covers some things.

https://www.makerpendium.de
and some archive website for games
https://rmarchiv.de/

So here you will find the game I mentioned for instance https://www.makerpendium.de/index.php/Vampires_Dawn_-_Reign_of_Blood
Some page mentioning the large three websites and some other medium/smaller ones. https://www.makerpendium.de/index.php/Die_großen_Drei The bottom part is interesting where also non-German websites are being listed.

Hehe, I'm all too aware, being generally interested in older PC and home computer games. The thing with console games is that they are super easy to track due to being beholden to the console manufacturer (and rather few in numbers). The only really interesting part is the market of unofficial games and peripherals. Though, while normal commercial games on the PC can already be a pain, indie/doujin games are so even more...and let's not even speak about freeware stuff.

I wouldn't say "clearly failed". The issue is that there is very little information about a lot of things anywhere, if at all (and then only in the local language). Researching that is already impossible to do properly and really difficult to do somewhat decent.

(As an aside: Minecraft and Terraria are really well-known, yet comparatively, barely anyone knows about Clonk which did a lot of things those games have a lot earlier and also had great mod support.)

 

[lightbane]

Finally finished re-reading this, it was a blast from the past. It covers tons of games, although osme are missing, like Dead State, which should be covered if only for the wasted potential it had, especially once the first main patch broke combat. The reviews of Fallout 3 and 4 are also too positive IMO, considering the damage they made to the brand and the RPG industry in general.

 

[felipepepe]

It covers tons of games, although osme are missing, like Dead State, which should be covered if only for the wasted potential it had, especially once the first main patch broke combat.

It might feel incomplete to us who were following the scene at the time, but there's only so many times you can write about wasted potential RPGs before it gets really tiring, especially during the mid-2010s Kickstarter frenzy. I'm not sure there's any benefit in adding more pages to cover stuff like Dead State, Insomnia, Zanki Zero, Stygian, Bard's Tale 4, Underworld Ascendant, etc...

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The Bard's Tale IV should have been included if only to have a screenshot of Bigby's Fiery Pimp-Slap:

 

[Ranselknulf]

I was so busy with finishing school that I completely missed this.

I'm definitely buying the physical book when it becomes available.

 

[ghostdog]

Congrats! Waiting for the hardcover book.

 

[lightbane]

It covers tons of games, although osme are missing, like Dead State, which should be covered if only for the wasted potential it had, especially once the first main patch broke combat.

It might feel incomplete to us who were following the scene at the time, but there's only so many times you can write about wasted potential RPGs before it gets really tiring, especially during the mid-2010s Kickstarter frenzy. I'm not sure there's any benefit in adding more pages to cover stuff like Dead State, Insomnia, Zanki Zero, Stygian, Bard's Tale 4, Underworld Ascendant, etc...

And yet you cover games like Fallout 4, Original Sin 2, Disco Elysium, etc.
But I guess you had a limited choice available. Shame Omori got in and not Jimmy and the Pulsating Mass.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Error 404
I was checking to find certain RPG - first person, probably Wizardry-like and from Hungary? and this is what happened...
edit - found it, it was Operencia Stolen Sun

 

[Konjad]

felipepepe any news about printed version of the expanded crpg book?

 

[Risewild]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

 

[Zed]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

While I don't think a game should be featured in a book like this for publicity's sake, I do think the point of featuring "upcoming genres" (I guess) is pretty interesting. It is by far the best way to lay the foundation of (even further into the future) historically chronicle it in future iterations of the book.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

Black Book (2021) should definitely be mentioned in this subgenre:

Also, the download link in the opening post of this thread needs to be updated.

 

[Risewild]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

While I don't think a game should be featured in a book like this for publicity's sake, I do think the point of featuring "upcoming genres" (I guess) is pretty interesting. It is by far the best way to lay the foundation of (even further into the future) historically chronicle it in future iterations of the book.

You have a point.

But I wrote that quite badly, I meant the Deckbuilding RPG games could use more "publicity" (as it's a genre that is emerging and not many people know about it), not the Erannorth games by themselves. But then while I was typing that, I decided to mention the Erannorth developer and placed that at the end of my post instead of after the first period. And then wrote about the games publicity, which I should have said genre publicity instead, and it was supposed to be in a new paragraph.

I have trouble forming thoughts and even more trouble typing them when my sleep disorder gets out of hand for a while, and typing stuff out of order is something not even Grammarly can fix for me.

 

[manifest]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

Hand of Fate and Slay the Spire made it in. The further provenance of these titles seems outside of the purview of the book's scope, but the genre seems more or less to have originated on consoles. It would be interesting to see detailed comparison between MTG and, say, Lost Kingdoms.

 

[felipepepe]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

I love Erannorth Reborn, got all 4 DLCs, is my favorite of the deckbuilding RPGs. I actually mention it twice in the book: on the Dream Quest review (the original deckbuilding Roguelike), and at the end of the book on my hidden gems list (I also sneaked in a Shandalar mention).

There's now hundreds of these games, including high profile ones like Monster Train, Dicey Dungeons, Inscryption, Griftlands and Library of Ruina. But considering the book only goes up to 2019, I think the games there - Dream Quest, Card Hunter, Hand of Fate and Slay the Spire give a good sense of the genre's progression and its most influential games.

Also, futurology is too risky and not really the point of the book... a while ago it felt like there was an 8-bit RPG movement with games like Nox Archaist, Skald: Against the Black Priory, The Lord of Dragonspire and Unknown Realm, but I guess it either flopped or will take longer to get going...

felipepepe any news about printed version of the expanded crpg book?

Bitmap Books announced it already, will be in Aug 2023

 

[Risewild]

Hey felipepepe , have you thought of mentioning a new genre of RPG that appeared "recently"?

Deckbuilding RPGs are starting to see growth these days and I think they could have a little recognition on this book. There's a series that it's pretty cool with two nice games "Erannorth Reborn" and "Erannorth Chronicles". Since they're mostly unknown games, they could use a bit more publicity, the dev is also a pretty chill guy.

I love Erannorth Reborn, got all 4 DLCs, is my favorite of the deckbuilding RPGs. I actually mention it twice in the book: on the Dream Quest review (the original deckbuilding Roguelike), and at the end of the book on my hidden gems list (I also sneaked in a Shandalar mention).

There's now hundreds of these games, including high profile ones like Monster Train, Dicey Dungeons, Inscryption, Griftlands and Library of Ruina. But considering the book only goes up to 2019, I think the games there - Dream Quest, Card Hunter, Hand of Fate and Slay the Spire give a good sense of the genre's progression and its most influential games.

Also, futurology is too risky and not really the point of the book... a while ago it felt like there was an 8-bit RPG movement with games like Nox Archaist, Skald: Against the Black Priory, The Lord of Dragonspire and Unknown Realm, but I guess it either flopped or will take longer to get going...

felipepepe any news about printed version of the expanded crpg book?

Bitmap Books announced it already, will be in Aug 2023

Fair enough.
I mentioned Erannorth games in particular because no other deckbuilding RPG comes close to the character creation and stat importance of this series (I consider it way more of an RPG than all the other more popular and known games that are also deckbuilders).

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

I got the collectors edition of the first issue and will buy a hardcover copy of the expanded edition as soon as it is available. Amazing job, you‘re doing god‘s work felipepepe

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Nice 404 on the WordPress-link - due to other commitments I completely missed this, but now I can't download the PDF.

EDIT: It works now. Must have been rats or something.