The decline of the Elder Scrolls series

[Stabwound]

I'm replaying Morrowind again after many years, and it really hammered home how much the series declined starting with Oblivion. One of the very first dungeons you can come across has multiple paths, an area you can dive underwater to find a corpse with treasure and another area with crates and stuff, etc. By no means are the dungeons on the level of Daggerfall, but lightyears beyond the linear intestine dungeons of Skyrim. Out of several hundred "dungeons" in Skyrim, there are maybe 5-6 that are open-ended: that's what I've heard; I couldn't stomach the game that long to find out. The rest of them are 100% linear, and level scaled loot means you have almost no incentive to even go through with them. You're not going to find an awesome item.

I played Oblivion the least, but I remember the dungeons being slightly more open-ended... but they all seemed copy pasted and very bland. This is the game I can talk the least about, because I didn't really play it at all. I do recall the biggest decline: the introduction of the quest compass, and quests designed under the assumption that you'd use the compass. In Morrowind there was no such compass, but quest givers would give you enough information to be able to find the places yourself. Fun shit.

Skyrim, though... it's just not good. It starts off pretty awesome to me, but the nice veneers quickly fall away to reveal the rotting teeth behind them. You realize that their amazing new radiant quests involve "Please go to Dungeon X and Retrieve Sword Y. I've marked the location on your map." and you just quick travel there and run through the digestive-system like dungeon, get the item, bring it back for a paltry gold reward. That's it. That's the entire game. Hundreds of fetch quests in dungeons that look pretty but follow a straight path the entire way.

Then we have the simplification of the equipment and spell systems. Again, I don't know just how much Oblivion declined, but I believe it had less equip slots. And Skyrim absolutely has less. And many fewer skills. It's just a completely shallow game.

Finally, the world of Morrowind is awesome to explore. Everything is so alien; towns are all distinct and have their own style. The world makes it fun to explore and find dungeons that you simply can't take on at your level, since there is no scaling. Oblivion's game world is Generic Fantasy Land #1234961 and quest markers ruin any sense of exploration at all.

Skyrim improves on Oblivion as far as the game world goes (in my opinion) but the quest map and magical GPS completely destroy any sense of exploration. You simply follow your GPS from landmark to landmark. Quick travel wherever the fuck you want. You can disable the quest markers and compass, but then the game is almost impossible. You'll get a quest like "Go to Cave Fuckface and get me my Sword" - where in the world is Cave Fuckface? Could you at least give me a general idea of where to look? You just can't play the game without the compass, and that's just a shame. Well, you can, but you will end up with hundreds of quests in your journal while you blindly wander around looking for the one single terrible dungeon out of hundreds for your mediocre reward.

Now, there may be mods that fix some of these problems, but I doubt there is anything that fixes Skyrim's dungeons and quest system, which in my opinion ruin the game themselves, let alone the other numerous problems. Oblivion was gutted by the level scaling, and Skyrim seems to have it on a lesser level, but it's still there. I don't want loot scaled to my level; I want good shit for doing a tough dungeon. There's nothing like taking on a very tough dungeon that out levels you and getting an awesome reward for doing so. No such thing in Oblivion or Morrowind.

Any questions or comments? I'm sure I have some things wrong, and I'm pretty ignorant about Oblivion since I barely played it. After the second or third Oblivion gate I said "fuck it" and never touched it again.

 

[octavius]

The good thing about TES 4-6 is that just about anything in them can be modded. The bad thing is that about 99% of the mods are crap, though.
I've found that instead of complaining about how bad the games are, installing the right mods can turn them (at least Oblivion) into more enjoyable games.
Of course if you're stuck with a console you are out of luck.

As for Oblivion, just disregard the main quest. After the level scaling, the stupid main quest was for me the biggest decline compared to Morrowind. Although you will need so many mods and so much tweaking to get the most out of it that it may not be worth the bother.

From what I've gathered the vanilla version of Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, so it shoudn't require as much modding and tweaking to get a good game.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I'm replaying Morrowind again after many years, and it really hammered home how much the series declined starting with Oblivion. One of the very first dungeons you can come across has multiple paths, an area you can dive underwater to find a corpse with treasure and another area with crates and stuff, etc.

Then again, it's the first dungeon (as in, the first you're likely to enter) and as such they put extra work into it to make it interesting, common practice with many games. The "first dungeons" in Oblivion and Skyrim are also more elaborate than most.

edit: the description makes it sound like it's the dungeon beside Seyda Neen.

As for Oblivion, just disregard the main quest. After the level scaling, the stupid main quest was for me the biggest decline compared to Morrowind. Although you will need so many mods and so much tweaking to get the most out of it that it may not be worth the bother.

The siege of Kvatch and the first Oblivion gate at least were very fun at high levels. What is intended to be a boring slog through a sea of stunted scamps that are cut down by your guard allies (why do they need you again?) turned into Ultimate Doom Tamriel Expansion Set, with daedroths and atronachs and clanfears dancing a conga line over everyone's corpses, requiring my psychotic orc warrior to go stealth and take them out onesies twosies to have a chance. At Kvatch, they fucked my armor good and I had to make do with some pieces I found laying around, probably meant as decoration but really useful for a desperate, naked warrior. At the gate, I brought spare armor but had to push the beefy dremora off the bridges and then run the fuck away in case they survived.

Of course, the problem is that to get to that point I went through 20+ levels of stunted scamps.

 

[Stabwound]

I haven't played in a long time and I don't remember much, but this is one of the dungeons you find if you go off the beaten path and walk to Balmora rather than take the silt strider. It's just a side quest, not one of the main ones. But yeah, Skyrim is definitely a huge violator there, the same with Oblivion's opening.

 

[bussinrounds]

The good thing about TES 4-6 is that just about anything in them can be modded. The bad thing is that about 99% of the mods are crap, though.
I've found that instead of complaining about how bad the games are, installing the right mods can turn them (at least Oblivion) into more enjoyable games.
Of course if you're stuck with a console you are out of luck.

As for Oblivion, just disregard the main quest. After the level scaling, the stupid main quest was for me the biggest decline compared to Morrowind. Although you will need so many mods and so much tweaking to get the most out of it that it may not be worth the bother.

From what I've gathered the vanilla version of Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, so it shoudn't require as much modding and tweaking to get a good game.

Are there mods that reconstruct entire dungeon design, make combat actually good, change the retarded 'more you use it, the better you get with it' leveling, add alot more creatures with entirely different models ?

Isn't there just so much that can be done with that shitty engine ?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't get why people insist on blaming the engine for Bethesda's fuckups.

 

[bussinrounds]

I don't get why people insist on blaming the engine for Bethesda's fuckups.

Idk, I always thought it was a shitty engine and then they also fucked things up on top of that. But I'm def not knowledgeable when it comes to engines and shit like that though.

 

[Mastermind]

By no means are the dungeons on the level of Daggerfall,

Kill yourself motherfucker. Daggerfall had the worst dungeons in the series, bar none. Neverending corridors that all look the fucking same, a map that was nearly worthless, just endless trudging through the same randomly generated piece of shit. Every Daggerfall dungeon looked like something Prosper made.

 

[octavius]

The good thing about TES 4-6 is that just about anything in them can be modded. The bad thing is that about 99% of the mods are crap, though.
I've found that instead of complaining about how bad the games are, installing the right mods can turn them (at least Oblivion) into more enjoyable games.
Of course if you're stuck with a console you are out of luck.

As for Oblivion, just disregard the main quest. After the level scaling, the stupid main quest was for me the biggest decline compared to Morrowind. Although you will need so many mods and so much tweaking to get the most out of it that it may not be worth the bother.

From what I've gathered the vanilla version of Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, so it shoudn't require as much modding and tweaking to get a good game.

Are there mods that reconstruct entire dungeon design, make combat actually good, change the retarded 'more you use it, the better you get with it' leveling,

Yes.

add alot more creatures with entirely different models ?

Don't think so. Making new animations are the most difficult and time consuming thing to do.
There are lots of mods that retexture the creatures, though.

Isn't there just so much that can be done with that shitty engine ?

Yes, sure. Unlike....?

By no means are the dungeons on the level of Daggerfall,

Kill yourself motherfucker. Daggerfall had the worst dungeons in the series, bar none. Neverending corridors that all look the fucking same, a map that was nearly worthless, just endless trudging through the same randomly generated piece of shit. Every Daggerfall dungeon looked like something Prosper made.

Except the hand made dungeons; they were well done.

 

[groke]

Bethesda can't do decent dungeons any more due to "technical limitations", like moving platforms and ladders. I tried to give Skyrim the benefit of the doubt, that maybe the shitty hallway wraparound dungeons would turn into something more interesting as I got further into the game. After Labyrinthian, I realised it was hopeless.

NEV4R 4GET

 

[Zewp]

What pisses me off the most is that every single fucking dungeon has a door close to the exit at the end of it, because consoletards apparently wouldn't know how to find their way back otherwise.

 

[Murk]

Actually, that was a good idea. Forcing you to run the whole linear stretch back with no enemies/puzzles/anything would be completely pointless.

 

[Commissar Draco]

In one case the ''exit'' was abandoned fort main gate barred from inside so you had to find alternative route in and escape routes seems to be logical thing in bandits hideouts but mostly it was just for moar consoltards accessibilityM:. I liked Morrowinds locations most they were caves, abandoned forts and tombs rather than dungeons made only to give some nerds the the thrill, Vanderfell felt like a location which you could retire and live in rather than stage for Heroes most games had. Not tom mention untill half of game you don't feel Majestic or Awesome at all, Skyrim with it Dragon killing in 3rd location you visit is still less derpy than meeting Emperor is Prison from Oblibion.

 

[Murk]

The fact that they were poorly done is separate from the idea of giving people an exit at the "end" of the dungeon -- then again, the fact that the dungeon even had an actual fucking "end" says enough about it to let you know they suck.

It was a cheap fix but I'd rather have that cheap fix than walk all the way back through it. Forcing backtracking is... bad. If the dungeon naturally leads you back with something going on, sure, but in Skyrim's case it would just be random spawns so why the fuck even bother?

 

[groke]

Actually, that was a good idea. Forcing you to run the whole linear stretch back with no enemies/puzzles/anything would be completely pointless.

Forcing the playtesters to run back through empty dungeons may have made the devs realise they needed to make their shitty dungeons interesting. The trip back is supposed to be 50% of the fun of dungeoncrawling.

 

[Murk]

Hey man, I agree with you. The dungeons should have not sucked.

 

[msxyz]

Decline? Skyrim sold like never other TES title before and received unanimous praises despite of the usual run of bugs that plague any Bethesda game.

It's not decline, it's just adapting your product to the changed tastes of the market and current hardware landscape.
In this, they did a much better job than Bioware.

If anything is declining, that is the taste of the consumers.

 

[madrigal]

Skyrim, though... it's just not good. It starts off pretty awesome to me, but the nice veneers quickly fall away to reveal the rotting teeth behind them. You realize that their amazing new radiant quests involve "Please go to Dungeon X and Retrieve Sword Y. I've marked the location on your map." and you just quick travel there and run through the digestive-system like dungeon, get the item, bring it back for a paltry gold reward. That's it. That's the entire game. Hundreds of fetch quests in dungeons that look pretty but follow a straight path the entire way.

How is that any different to arena marking stuff on your map, generic fetch questions and totally linear dungeons?

And if you want to find Cave Fuckface look on the map like every other game in the series.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Skyrim, though... it's just not good. It starts off pretty awesome to me, but the nice veneers quickly fall away to reveal the rotting teeth behind them. You realize that their amazing new radiant quests involve "Please go to Dungeon X and Retrieve Sword Y. I've marked the location on your map." and you just quick travel there and run through the digestive-system like dungeon, get the item, bring it back for a paltry gold reward. That's it. That's the entire game. Hundreds of fetch quests in dungeons that look pretty but follow a straight path the entire way.

How is that any different to arena marking stuff on your map, generic fetch questions and totally linear dungeons?

And if you want to find Cave Fuckface look on the map like every other game in the series.

In Morrowind only landmarks were marked on the paper map. You had to read book, visit local bars and bribe herdsmen, scouts, bandits to gain even the location you will start your search, if you were wrong race and/or guild and sucked at social skills... your loss. This is why Imperials with 85 at personality had easy despite not being optimized for magic/melee.

 

[Kattze]

DraQ

 

[Zeriel]

Skyrim, though... it's just not good. It starts off pretty awesome to me, but the nice veneers quickly fall away to reveal the rotting teeth behind them. You realize that their amazing new radiant quests involve "Please go to Dungeon X and Retrieve Sword Y. I've marked the location on your map." and you just quick travel there and run through the digestive-system like dungeon, get the item, bring it back for a paltry gold reward. That's it. That's the entire game. Hundreds of fetch quests in dungeons that look pretty but follow a straight path the entire way.

How is that any different to arena marking stuff on your map, generic fetch questions and totally linear dungeons?

And if you want to find Cave Fuckface look on the map like every other game in the series.

In Morrowind only landmarks were marked on the paper map. You had to read book, visit local bars and bribe herdsmen, scouts, bandits to gain even the location you will start your search, if you were wrong race and/or guild and sucked at social skills... your loss. This is why Imperials with 85 at personality had easy despite not being optimized for magic/melee.

I think this pretty much proves video games are like fine wines, at least in terms of appearances. Whether or not that fifty year old vintage tastes like vinegar, it's generally regarded as superior just because it's older. When Morrowind came out, it was a bucket of decline. Now it's incline, apparently? I mean, I liked Morrowind, but the predominant opinion on the Codex at the time was that it was shit (this being before the word decline had come into use), especially for people who had played Daggerfall in its prime.

 

[Commissar Draco]

is perpetual Comrade.

 

[Zeriel]

Whether or not that fifty year old vintage tastes like vinegar, it's generally regarded as superior just because it's older.

Not true.
Only wine noobs can say fifty year old wine tasting like vinegar is better. Wine as a food has its peak and then it gets only worse. You can't say old wine is better. It depends, if the wine has some potential to mature so long. Get some friggin wine education.

It was an analogy. Don't get too excited. If you want to get technical, "how much does it cost?" is a more accurate version of wine snobbery.

 

[JarlFrank]

The good thing about TES 4-6 is that just about anything in them can be modded. The bad thing is that about 99% of the mods are crap, though.
I've found that instead of complaining about how bad the games are, installing the right mods can turn them (at least Oblivion) into more enjoyable games.
Of course if you're stuck with a console you are out of luck.

As for Oblivion, just disregard the main quest. After the level scaling, the stupid main quest was for me the biggest decline compared to Morrowind. Although you will need so many mods and so much tweaking to get the most out of it that it may not be worth the bother.

From what I've gathered the vanilla version of Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, so it shoudn't require as much modding and tweaking to get a good game.

Are there mods that reconstruct entire dungeon design, make combat actually good, change the retarded 'more you use it, the better you get with it' leveling, add alot more creatures with entirely different models ?

Isn't there just so much that can be done with that shitty engine ?

Check out Nehrim, an Oblivion TC that is actually good.

Also, with the right mods you can change Oblivion almost completely (except for the vanilla content which will always be there unless it's a TC mod). There are countless possibilities.
The problem is that it's still lacking in comparison to Morrowind as some things cannot be fixed.

 

[JarlFrank]

Actually, that was a good idea. Forcing you to run the whole linear stretch back with no enemies/puzzles/anything would be completely pointless.

No. The good idea would've been to re-introduce mark and recall. Same effect, without making dungeons feel like some contrived circular made-for-adventurer-convenience structures.