Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
I think you meant overrated there. Ah, so let's ignore everything good about BB. Got it.
And Sekiro. I'm sorry, you're one of those. I see. The combat system alone is fantastic and the world, the music, the mobility, the boss battles, the tools, the inclusion of stealth, swimming, grappling hook etc. all compensate for the absence of the other things you mentioned. It was a new, interesting take and proved to be a great one.
But don't worry, Elden Ring will be DkS4 so you'll be able to make a mage, summon NPCs and other real people (NPCs basically), stand in the back with your shield up cheering while they kill the boss and exclaim that the game is easy.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,067
Location
Frostfell
all compensate for the absence of the other things you mentioned.

No, all cool weapons are "enemy only" weapons on sekiro. Tanegashima? Enemy only. Naginata + Horse? A single boss only. Yumi? Enemy only.

Katanas are overrated. No reach, no thrusting capability, any low grade armor can stop his cuts, even against other backup weapon swords, it will probably lose due the poor wood guard, Nioh 2 in other hands allow you to use all types of cool weapons.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
all compensate for the absence of the other things you mentioned.

No, all cool weapons are "enemy only" weapons on sekiro. Tanegashima? Enemy only. Naginata + Horse? A single boss only. Yumi? Enemy only.

Katanas are overrated. No reach, no thrusting capability, any low grade armor can stop his cuts, even against other backup weapon swords, it will probably lose due the poor wood guard, Nioh 2 in other hands allow you to use all types of cool weapons.
Nioh 2 is closer to Dark Souls, hence the variety in equipment, magic, tools etc.
Sekiro was meant to be something different. It was well received, with some exceptions.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
Sekiro combat system: mash L1 blindly, win. Thank you, based parry window.
You serious bro? Dark Souls: attack, roll, attack roll. So deep.
At least in Sekiro you had to press 2 extra keys depending on the attack, dodge the grabs and jump the sweeps. Everything else was deflectable.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Brother, they are both not particularly deep in their own ways. But if I have to pick between mashing L1 and sometimes jumping/dodging when a symbol appears on a screen, and timing my roll based on an animation, then I prefer the timing.

If we wanted to play a game for its deep combat we'd be playing God Hand or DMC 3.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
They're both based on timing. You either do an action (deflect, jump, dodge) or another (roll) when the moment comes.
As for the other games I haven't played them. I only heard about DMC but nothing about its combat. Isn't it some kind of anime shit?
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
They're both based on timing. You either do an action (deflect, jump, dodge) or another (roll) when the moment comes.
As for the other games I haven't played them. I only heard about DMC but nothing about its combat. Isn't it some kind of anime shit?
I don't think this is true. Due to the generous parry window, you are completely fine for 99% of the game of Sekiro tap-tap-tapping L1 (with a small break between each tap) instead of having to time your parry. You simply watch out for jumps/dodges and do those when the symbol pops up.

Calling DMC 'anime shit' in a Dark Souls thread is somewhat ironic.

Alphard
01577ceba7a423370efd3e3fab458678.png
 

Alphard

Guest
They're both based on timing. You either do an action (deflect, jump, dodge) or another (roll) when the moment comes.
As for the other games I haven't played them. I only heard about DMC but nothing about its combat. Isn't it some kind of anime shit?
I don't think this is true. Due to the generous parry window, you are completely fine for 99% of the game of Sekiro tap-tap-tapping L1 (with a small break between each tap) instead of having to time your parry. You simply watch out for jumps/dodges and do those when the symbol pops up.

Calling DMC 'anime shit' in a Dark Souls thread is somewhat ironic.

Alphard
01577ceba7a423370efd3e3fab458678.png
if you are done projecting and start to be honest you could realize you wrote an idiocy when you said mashing l1 can carry you anywhere in the game except for some specific bosses like longneck
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Well, it's how I beat the game, so...
Can you even refute my argument? Can you list me some parry-patterns that I can't defeat by pressing L1 a few times in a row without particularly timing it?

Obviously longneck is the most egregious, and of course sometimes, you certainly do have to time it more, but the salient point is simply this: the timing is so generous that half the time L1L1L1L1L1 can carry you through every boss, as long as you use dodge/jump the other things.
 

Alphard

Guest
Well, it's how I beat the game, so...
Can you even refute my argument? Can you list me some parry-patterns that I can't defeat by pressing L1 a few times in a row without particularly timing it?

Obviously longneck is the most egregious, and of course sometimes, you certainly do have to time it more, but the salient point is simply this: the timing is so generous that half the time L1L1L1L1L1 can carry you through every boss, as long as you use dodge/jump the other things.
mashing l1 will result most of the time in a block and posture damage. you can still win but it will take you much more to down a boss and you will take damage once posture is full thus risking the attempt. timing parries is much more efficient and there is even an antimash mechanic where you do more damage on consecutive successfull parries
 

Alphard

Guest
Sekiro combat system: mash L1 blindly, win. Thank you, based parry window.
found the guy who quit after first tutorial miniboss

I completed the game and Jasede is right in that Sekiro's combat is not "deep" and really not that good. Although I would call it more of a rythm game than a button masher.
i never said sekiro combat is deep, but it's ok for the game and really satisfying and fun once you get the hang of it. ofc i miss the weapon and armor variety too, but sekiro wasnt supposed to be ds4 and i appreciate It for what it is
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
Mashing the attack button and only the attack button (if we're being ridiculous) gets you precisely in one place: your grave. It doesn't work in Sekiro nor in Dark Souls.
And why don't you watch some videos of Tolomeor on YouTube. The guy doesn't even roll or block. That's the level of mastery these games allow for. Not everyone plays like that nor everyone is able to play like that.
Let's not go to one extreme or another.
If DkS\BB\Sekiro are "just mash l1" (or whatever is on that console shit) what can be said about Skyrim for example? That's a game where all you can literally do is mash the attack button.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
People that haven't played any of the legendary action games probably shouldn't comment on combat. :lol:
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
8,108
Location
Lusitânia
If DkS\BB\Sekiro are "just mash l1" (or whatever is on that console shit) what can be said about Skyrim for example?

It's shit.
But that fact doesn't make souls combat anything special either. They are decent, that's it (Sekiro is poor though)
People that think otherwise are people that never did play actually good action games.
 

Alphard

Guest
If DkS\BB\Sekiro are "just mash l1" (or whatever is on that console shit) what can be said about Skyrim for example?

It's shit.
But that fact doesn't make souls combat anything special either. They are decent, that's it (Sekiro is poor though)
People that think otherwise are people that never did play actually good action games.
i think you are confusing complexity with quality. neither souls or sekiro have complex combat, but they have good combat nonetheless. dark souls with its variety of weapon movesets and magics, sekiro with its much more focused approach on reflex. you can dislike the systems but imo they are good
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
3,044
Location
Romania
People that haven't played any of the legendary action games probably shouldn't comment on combat. :lol:
Are you referring to pure action games like Mortal Kombat for instance? With combos, number of hits, list of key combinations to do various attacks and stuff? Because if you do, then no, I haven't played these games nor do I have any intention to.
Compared to them From Software's combat iteration may not be as complex but it is superior to every other melee system out there, unless again, you refer to pure action\fighting games. But it gets to a different discussion about focused or dedicated games vs games that try to do more things, hybrids in a way. I (tried) to watch some MK 10 or 11 (or whatever they're at now) gameplay and that stuff is just fights followed by cutscenes all the way to the end apparently.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
8,108
Location
Lusitânia
Look, I've already parroted what I'm about to say in similar discussions and in much greater detail so I'll try to keep this simple.

For Dark Souls the easiest route would be to compare it to the similar but better Blade of Darkness and Nioh.
The reason why DS is just decent it's because it has essentially nothing to master. The biggest differences between the weapons are their stats but their actions are so similar, so basic, so limited that aside from those stats there is basically no distinction between playing with a longsword or a katana. They fundamentally make no difference on how the player approaches the different challenges. That isn't something that happens on BoD or Nioh, where each weapon type is indeed very distinct in use and behavior, which makes the player think differentely the on way he acts. In BoD since even weapons of the same category have their own unique moves with different intentions, the game therefore has even differences between weapons of the same type. And in Nioh you can craft your own moveset, selecting out of a dozen moves for each weapon type, all with distinct properties, so that game takes a step further by demaning you to seriously ponder about the composition, synergy and purpose of your weapons choice.
DS is pretty much just a foundation for a combat system, a solid foundation but just a foundation none the less, barren of any other structure that builds up on it, to offer a truly engaging combat experience.

Action games are all about the tools given to you (how they play with each other, with the enemies, how they change your playstyle, etc...) and how to properly read and react against it's challenges/enemies.

Sekiro is bad, because it completely fails on both accounts.
The game is super mechanical.
By this I mean that enemies seem to be designed to counter all your attacks except those specifically designed to kill them - i.e., if an enemy can only be defeated by counter slashing, then that’s it. You can even see this in how weirdly limited/specific in use most tools and moves are. The design difference between Sekiro and Soulborne titles comes down to this - in previous games, a boss fight was dependent on both the enemy and your own build; here, the only thing that matters is the boss patterns itself and not the player.
The only way to win is to know ahead of time what attack the enemy performs and how to counter them. That's I memed alot about how the game feels like a rythm game, because the whole thing really is about performing a specific sequence of X maneuvers perfectly when dealing with Y situation.
There's no room for experiementation or improvisation. You either dance to the devs tune or get fucked.
Another proof of this overall poor design is how the game has quite a lot of "trick" moves just to fuck with you, where the same starting attack animation can lead into different combo patterns.

I'll be quoting Lutte for this next example:

Take for example Owl Father's charged move. He does a charge that makes it look like he's going to dump the sword on your head, and that is what he's going to do if you don't move at all and dodge at the last second only. But if you try to just walk on the sides or dodge early, that move suddenly turns into a full horizontal sweep. If you dodge to the back he jumps on you. It's pure trial and error understanding that he can do the latter two moves, you know it because you made the mistake of trying to find alternative ways of dealing with that slow ass boring charge move. Then you learn that there's only one valid way of dealing with it: dodge at the specific timing.
This is not so different from the enemy uber tracking found in the latter souls games, that people complained a lot about, where the enemy would spin like crazy to follow where you are, it's just better animated so that instead of rotating in place the character looks like he's doing a different attack. And this is where you spot how much blind fanboyism this game receives, some of the features that were most complained about other From's games is now something taken as a positive.
The game is literally wants you to do nothing and only avoid it in the one, correct way. There's no opportunity for finding interesting positionings and having fun with the combat system. The game just wants you to wait and do nothing like a good boy.

Add to this the same weakness from DS, and seriously gameplay wise Sekiro is a shallow action game.
Again the only reason you guys think otherwise is because you haven't played anything better, plus the fact Sekiro has an amazing game feel.
You know what? Fuck it. I know I'll get shit for this but I'll say it anyway.
Sekiro is like a reverse Stalker. Amazing game feel and polish that immediately draws you in, but once you play it enough to understand how the game truly works it loses all it's appeal and you can't be bothered to boot it up ever again.
 
Last edited:

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,976
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Lutte in dat quote sounds like he was buttblasted by Father and tries to justify why it's not him that's bad but the game.

Also saying action games are all about combat complexity is like saying food is all about calories.
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,062
I'm playing this right now. I'm at Bastille. I have a handaxe. Are fast weapon or big weapon better? I have picked the greatsword but I'm wondering if it's worth it to invest in Str to use it. For now I've been spreading my points around. I haven't seen any big shield too. Are shield as good as DS1?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom