Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Starfield Thread - now with Shattered Space horror expansion

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,144
Moving past the clickbait headline, this seems to be the first step taken by Todd Howard towards admitting that Starfield was a fundamentally different type of game from the subgenre established by Morrowind, though he's still pretending that complaints are prompted by the players being required to do things in a "certain way" rather than the underlying game design. :M
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,810
The new weight limitations completely change the game. Before, you would only loot legendary weapons (and ammo because it's weightless) and leave helmets, packs, etc. on the ground. Now, deciding an exact balance of how much food, water, medicine, and ammunition to carry is very interesting. Also we know what ship doctors were supposed to be for, since with the new difficulty settings, conditions worsen over time and require a physician to heal.

Bethesda should remove the whole mining sequence at the beginning and start you on a random planet with no spaceship. The intro only serves to set up the Crimson Fleet as villains, except the majority of the game's content consists of running missions for them, so even narratively it's a total waste of time. Make the first artifact spawn in a randomly generated cave on your starting planet and have Barrett appear randomly later on like the Dark Brotherhood attacks in Morrowind.

It would have been much better if you started by doing Activities (Terrabrew coffee delivery mission, scanning planets, eavesdropping on Akila), ended up hired as the crewmate for a faction's ship, THEN bought a piece of junk of your own just to leave your initial system. The power process is all fucked up. Why would I deliver someone's coffee AFTER I already own a fucking starship?

Also, ships are way too good by default. There should be Class 0 Ugly ships whose grav jumps always end up in the wrong place, engines fail, weapons misfire, etc. Starting as a mediocre ship and getting slightly better is way less impressive than starting with a Space Ford Fiesta and graduating to The Normandy.

There was probably supposed to be a way to build other Lodges and connect them in a jump network or something (Propylon Index), since as-is, settlements are a waste of time.
 

Old Hans

Arcane
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
2,124
Moving past the clickbait headline, this seems to be the first step taken by Todd Howard towards admitting that Starfield was a fundamentally different type of game from the subgenre established by Morrowind, though he's still pretending that complaints are prompted by the players being required to do things in a "certain way" rather than the underlying game design. :M
cant wait till years from now, when he finally admits the game was total garbage
 

Konjad

Patron
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
5,474
Location
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And although Howard thinks that's "perfectly understandable," he says it's just not the experience Starfield sets out to provide. "I do think for us—particularly me—going into a science-fiction game, I want to be able to land on all the planets. I want the game to say 'Yes' to us, knowing that that content is gonna be different than you've seen from us in the past."
I like Todd but his head seems stuck in, like, 1990. He still seems to think Starflight is the pinnacle of gaming because you can "go anywhere" (which was also his favourite thing about Arena, apparently). Doesn't matter that there's nothing to actually do when you land, the appeal is simply that you can go anywhere.

If Starfield had released in 1990 - exact same game, but with older technology and released on DOS - it would definitely have been an all-time classic that people would still be playing/pretending to have played today, and would have been absolutely seismic and influenced games to this day. But it's not 1990, it's 2024, and I don't get how he can still think it's impressive to be able to click on a planet and be greeted with a giant empty procgen space with nothing in it. Even Mass Effect already did this with the shitty Mako maps. His "dream game" is shit that's already been done over and over again. He literally thinks, speaks and acts like someone who's been in a coma for three decades and has just woke up.

Next up he'll release a game that plays exactly like Wolfenstein 3D and enthuse that "it's my dream game because you're in first person, it's like you're really there".
I'm pretty sure he doesn't play non-Bethesda games that aren't sport games. He never did, and he is simply not interested in playing. That's why he's so out of touch that he has no idea 'you can travel anywhere' in hundreds of games by now - for him Starfield was the first game he could travel anywhere.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,810
Inconclusive. I hope it has. I dream seeing Bethesda going bust for all it’s done to Fallout.
76 is probably better than fallout 2

Enhance clinics in SF should have more gameplay ramifications. Giving your character bionic eyes for night vision or gills to breathe underwater would be interesting. Problem is the game is already too easy, so cybernetic augmentations might make things worse
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
420
Looking forward to more space
Enhance clinics in SF should have more gameplay ramifications. Giving your character bionic eyes for night vision or gills to breathe underwater would be interesting. Problem is the game is already too easy, so cybernetic augmentations might make things worse
Why would you need body augmentations to breathe underwater when you're already wearing a pressurized suit with oxygen tanks?
 

Be Kind Rewind

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
595
Location
Serbia
I would almost bump it up a grade if it had explorable ocean worlds like Kamino.
You might think you want the Bethesda take on deep ocean planetary exploration but you don't, it'd not be any more fun than farting around on the surface of any other planet, with the same couple of points of interest strewn around in the same box, over and over and over again. It's almost habitual for Codexers to shit on something without any sort of context or perspective so I thought I might rise above that by examining this with reference to what does exist and not some ideal that is only in my mind. My thesis is that regardless of the many design and gameplay flaws of Bethesda they're missing even more than that, a being-there-ness, and I don't see why you would want the space or aquatic planetary setting without it.

Perhaps the three strongest examples of that which leap out when considering games that have attempted any such thing of late would be No Man's Sky, Outer Wilds and Subnautica. None of the rest can really compare to the freeform but entirely meaningful exploration in Outer Wilds, with the constant tornadoes and storms ravaging the surface so strongly that the tiny islands shoot up into the higher atmosphere, or the possible journey into the planet's core aided by an alien jellyfish, or the secret in the one calm place of the world. The place is not just heard and seen, and what a great presentation it is, but also felt through the gameplay, being at the mercy of the elements as the player is. Mechanical gameplay importance and aesthetic merged totally.

Subnautica is more or less Minecraft with better graphics set on a single plateau on an ocean, far less interesting to look at and less going on, there are the additional survival mechanics, of requiring air and only being able to drive underwater vehicles at certain pressures, but it is enough to have some appeal to the fantasy of exploring a deep sea, giving the player some feel for the vulnerability of such a proposal.

No Man's Sky has similar problems as Starfield in that you'll come to learn the patterns of procedural generation and so have less reason to explore, but far less so, and features vibrant underwater worlds just as lush and dense as the surface of planets. There was an update dedicated only to the deep sea released, but even before that the game didn't make much of a distinction between what lay above and beneath the waves, so you might find sunken ruins and the like as you would find on land, as well as aquatic life that was generated just like the flying animals and land creatures. When people talk about video games they often do so autistically as if they were spreadsheets, whereas some of the best qualities of NMS lies in creating a truly procedural ambient soundscape, with dynamic weather effects that have impact on the gameplay. It might be shallow but it nails the atmosphere.

Perhaps it's unfair to compare it to these games since they are supposedly in other genres, but even the Codex favorite piñata Bioware used to get it right in many ways. They're rightfully shat on for making terrible "RPGs" but what they did do correctly was atmosphere even if it had little mechanical impact. In KOTOR you had Manaan, a Kamino fanfic planet, and you did get to descent into the depths. Despite being depicted in a souped up Neverwinter Nights engine for consoles the surface had a pleasant sense of place, with a light cloudy sky and the ocean stretching endlessly towards the horizon in the skybox.



Bioware could get away with it because they were in the business of making focused and cinematic action adventures with light RPG elements and players didn't expect to be able to go anywhere and do anything. It's enough to set the mood, give you a sense of where you are, but not more than that. It was the Star Trek matte painting, which might not seem like much but it makes a difference. Bioware would return to an ocean planet in one of their final DLCs for Mass Effect 3, Leviathan, and once again despite their failure to provide an RPG or even good action gameplay someone at the office did understand at least some of the appeal of the fantasy of visiting other worlds. Like George Lucas' Kamino the surface is stormy and rainy, and eldritch horrors lurk in the calmer depths.



With Bethesda you would get none of this, you wouldn't get the bespoke exploration of Outer Wilds and the mysteries or adventures of that game, on a mechanical level Bethesda makes poor looter shooters, so if you visited an alien aquatic world there would need to be lootable humans there, there would be the same clutter and architecture as in the rest of the galaxy, due to how they put together content, and since this is a space game of a scope too large to make things by hand it would feature radiant content. But it's also not a simulationist game, you wouldn't have to worry about air supplies, and certainly not leviathans of the depths, Bethesda is not Piranha Bytes that would give you a taste of late game challenge if you ventured in the wrong direction, not that there is a right or wrong direction since this is procedurally generated. You're never going to be on a raft in a planetary wide simulated ocean, at the mercy of the elements, or diving into the marine trenches.

At the same time you're also going to be missing the craftsmanship of a well put together tiny set, of a great skybox, and all the small details you'd see in a more cinematic game. Basically I'm saying that inherently, by being made by Betheda, with their content pipelines and design process, it's inevitable that you'd get something boring and generic and it wouldn't feel as if you just landed on a waterworld, it would be more of the same. Mechanically, aesthetically, superficially, in any way that counts you might as well be looting sporks being worth 2 credits in a lunar base.
 
Last edited:

Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
31,866
normies that have low standards.
i wish they did. instead they have NO standards, they eat whatever they're told to because they have no idea what's going on and don't even want to know.
Screenshot_20240507-131229.png
 

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
986
You might think you want the Bethesda take on deep ocean planetary exploration but you don't
Since an ocean lacks boundaries, Bethesda would likely just use invisible borders, just like I'm told they did on Starfield's land areas. And the water column beneath the surface is mostly empty, making it hard to add gameplay on your way down to the bottom. Bethesda would likely just use loading screens.

My thesis is that regardless of the many design and gameplay flaws of Bethesda they're missing even more than that, a being-there-ness, and I don't see why you would want the space or aquatic planetary setting without it.

Perhaps the three strongest examples of that which leap out when considering games that have attempted any such thing of late would be No Man's Sky, Outer Wilds and Subnautica.
I've overlooked Outer Wilds due to its artstyle, but the setting sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

Subnautica is more or less Minecraft with better graphics set on a single plateau on an ocean, far less interesting to look at and less going on, there are the additional survival mechanics, of requiring air and only being able to drive underwater vehicles at certain pressures, but it is enough to have some appeal to the fantasy of exploring a deep sea, giving the player some feel for the vulnerability of such a proposal.
I might add ARK Survival Evolved here also, even though I've mostly played its land areas (that are likely better). It has an open ocean (confined by a huge space station) populated by prehistoric sea monsters.

Bioware could get away with it because they were in the bussiness of making focused and cinematic action adventures with light RPG elements and players didn't expect to be able to go anywhere and do anything. It's enough to set the mood, give you a sense of where you are, but not more than that.
I'll add SOMA as well, it too has smaller/linear levels with a nice mood:



Bethesda makes poor looter shooters, so if you visited an alien aquatic world there would need to be lootable humans there, there would be the same clutter and architecture as in the rest of the galaxy
Only way lots of humans would make sense underwater is if there was a local, man-made underwater city or other structure. Spreading them out in the entire ocean would be incredibly silly.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,810
I would almost bump it up a grade if it had explorable ocean worlds like Kamino.
You might think you want the Bethesda take on deep ocean planetary exploration but you don't, it'd not be any more fun than farting around on the surface of any other planet, with the same couple of points of interest strewn around in the same box, over and over and over again. It's almost habitual for Codexers to shit on something without any sort of context or perspective so I thought I might rise above that by examining this with reference to what does exit and not some ideal that is only in my mind. My thesis is that regardless of the many design and gameplay flaws of Bethesda they're missing even more than that, a being-there-ness, and I don't see why you would want the space or aquatic planetary setting without it.

Perhaps the three strongest examples of that which leap out when considering games that have attempted any such thing of late would be No Man's Sky, Outer Wilds and Subnautica. None of the rest can really compare to the freeform but entirely meaningful exploration in Outer Wilds, with the constant tornadoes and storms ravaging the surface so strongly that the tiny islands shoot up into the higher atmosphere, or the possible journey into the planet's core aided by an alien jellyfish, or the secret in the one calm place of the world. The place is not just heard and seen, and what a great presentation it is, but also felt through the gameplay, being at the mercy of the elements as the player is. Mechanical gameplay importance and aesthetic merged totally.

Subnautica is more or less Minecraft with better graphics set on a single plateau on an ocean, far less interesting to look at and less going on, there are the additional survival mechanics, of requiring air and only being able to drive underwater vehicles at certain pressures, but it is enough to have some appeal to the fantasy of exploring a deep sea, giving the player some feel for the vulnerability of such a proposal.

No Man's Sky has similar problems as Starfield in that you'll come to learn the patterns of procedural generation and so have less reason to explore, but far less so, and features vibrant underwater worlds just as lush and dense as the surface of planets. There was an update dedicated only to the deep sea released, but even before that the game didn't make much of a distinction between what lay above and beneath the waves, so you might find sunken ruins and the like as you would find on land, as well as aquatic life that was generated just like the flying animals and land creatures. When people talk about video games they often do so autistically as if they were spreadsheets, whereas some of the best qualities of NMS lies in creating a truly procedural ambient soundscape, with dynamic weather effects that have impact on the gameplay. It might be shallow but it nails the atmosphere.

Perhaps it's unfair to compare it to these games since they are supposedly in other genres, but even the Codex favorite piñata Bioware used to get it right in many ways. They're rightfully shat on for making terrible "RPGs" but what they did do correctly was atmosphere even if it had little mechanical impact. In KOTOR you had Manaan, a Kamino fanfic planet, and you did get to descent into the depths. Despite being depicted in a souped up Neverwinter Nights engine for consoles the surface had a pleasant sense of place, with a light cloudy sky and the ocean stretching endlessly towards the horizon in the skybox.



Bioware could get away with it because they were in the bussiness of making focused and cinematic action adventures with light RPG elements and players didn't expect to be able to go anywhere and do anything. It's enough to set the mood, give you a sense of where you are, but not more than that. It was the Star Trek matte painting, which might not seem like much but it makes a difference. Bioware would return to an ocean planet in one of their final DLCs for Mass Effect 3, Leviathan, and once again despite their failure to provide an RPG or even good action gameplay someone at the office did understand at least some of the appeal of the fantasy of visiting other worlds. Like George Lucas' Kamino the surface is stormy and rainy, and eldritch horrors lurk in the calmer deeps.



With Bethesda you would get none of this, you wouldn't get the bespoke exploration of Outer Wilds and the mysteries or adventures of that game, on a mechanical level Bethesda makes poor looter shooters, so if you visited an alien aquatic world there would need to be lootable humans there, there would be the same clutter and architecture as in the rest of the galaxy, due to how they put together content, and since this is a space game of a scope too large to make things by hand it would feature radiant content. But it's also not a simulationist game, you wouldn't have to worry about air supplies, and certainly not leviathans of the depths, Bethesda is not Pirhana Bytes that would give you a taste of late game challenge if you ventured in the wrong direction, not that there is a right or wrong direciton since this is procedurally generated. You're never going to be on a raft in a planetary wide simulated ocean, at the mercy of the elements, or diving into the marine trenches.

At the same time you're also going to be missing the craftsmanship of a well put together tiny set, of a great skybox, and all the small details you'd see in a more cinematic game. Basically I'm saying that inherently, by being made by Betheda, with their content pipelines and design process, it's inevitable that you'd get something boring and generic and it wouldn't feel as if you just landed on a waterworld, it would be more of the same. Mechanically, aesthetically, superficially, in any way that counts you might as well be looting sporks being worth 2 credits in a lunar base.

They should just have a Bioshock biome where the planet is all water and the landing sites are some structures or caves underwater. That way you don't need swimming since the cells are interiors, but you can still have aquatic elements.
 

Be Kind Rewind

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
595
Location
Serbia
I've overlooked Outer Wilds due to its artstyle, but the setting sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.
I don't think I can oversell Outer Wilds, even before mainstream faggots found out about it the prototype put together as a student project was totally unique in the medium and the game was in development hell for a long time and it's only in playing the final product you'll understand why. Outer Wilds does two things, exploration and dynamism. The more I talk about it the more I'd ruin the experience of getting to know it yourself firsthand but the small scale and artstyle are contrivances to make the entire thing work. In what other game can you land on an asteroid only to find all entries to it frozen over with ice, and then wait until the orbit comes closer to the sun so you can enter it after being heated up? Where you can walk on the crumbling floor of a hollow rocky planet as it gets bombarded from its moon that has explosive volcanic activity, a molten lava ejection solidifying and hitting the spot where you landed your ship, and it and the section of the planet breaks away, robbing you of a way off planet. If you have any love for science fiction, atmosphere, exploration, and the rest of it Outer Wilds will blow your mind, and the DLC had one of the best depictions of generational ships I've seen in a video game.

It's the best space exploration game because there's not just things to find and mysteries to uncover, but because the act of exploration itself is entirely tied to the setting and gamespace, it's not just there as a backdrop. The only thing that compares are either something like Space Engine that isn't a game but does give you a sense of scale of the universe, and older games that made spaceflight either interesting, like Starflight or Protostar: War on the Frontier, or non-trivial, like Shuttle: The Space Flight Simulator, or something newer, like Kerbal Space Program, that makes the difficulty of launching into space in the first place the subject of the game, but those aren't about exploring other worlds so much as about space itself.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
19,249
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Outer Wilds is certainly unique and worth a playthrough but a "space exploration" game it is not.

Its tiny planets make SPORE look like simulator by comparison.
 

Be Kind Rewind

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 14, 2021
Messages
595
Location
Serbia
Outer Wilds is certainly unique and worth a playthrough but a "space exploration" game it is not.

Its tiny planets make SPORE look like simulator by comparison.
Already addressed this in my previous posts multiple times, if you want realistic scope then have fun with Space Engine I guess, because there are no games doing that. Either you abstract heavily in one way or another, or you go procgen with nothing to find out there, making the exploration part invalid.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom