StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void

[Daedalos]

I read somewhere in an article with Metzen and his people, that they wrote and produced SC1 and BW in a very dark and grim time in their lives.

That's could be one of the reasons why SC1 and SC2 have such stark differences I believe.

The solution? Put people in a shitty situation and creativity sparks!

This isn't a new phenomenon. Musicians, writers, painters, all people who had great trials and tribulations in their life, has produced some of the best art this world has seen through pain and suffering.

I guess when you really suffer, you begin to see the world in a more realistic light ! .. Full of shit !

 

[Maculo]

Wouldn't surprise me. They went from heavy metal and grimdark to dads. It happens.

 

[Daedalos]

Wouldn't surprise me. They went from heavy metal and grimdark to dads. It happens.

Exactly.

More money, happier life, having family and kids.. everything is good. = Boring creativity

 

[MilesBeyond]

Exactly.

More money, happier life, having family and kids.. everything is good. = Boring creativity

Interestingly enough, that's not always the case. IIRC Mahler's darkest and grimmest works came out of a time in his life when he was quite content, and he's just one example among many. Similarly, there's been plenty of boring, pointless art produced by people who are going through hell.

I mean I know you weren't being entirely serious, but I think there is this sense overall that we look at the creative art produced by disturbed individuals and become enamored with this narrative of the brilliance of the dark mind when in reality that's not often the case. Disturbed geniuses are brilliant because they're geniuses, not because they're disturbed. Source? All the disturbed people out there who aren't brilliant.

I actually think that faction-based stories in video games have gone the way of serial episodes in TV shows. I think that's largely because as much as the video games industry has been growing, it's still nowhere near the explosive success of the big screen. So there's this sense that if video games and TV shows become more "cinematic," they'll be able to tap into that a bit. And to their credit, it's been working. Well, TV is a bit of a mixed bag - it's working a lot better for HBO than it is for traditional cable networks, for example. But video games, yeah, it's definitely pulling things together. Today, even half-baked games are bringing in sales figures that much better games in the 90s could only dream of - even accounting for inflation and higher development costs and all that (except, bizarrely enough, Tetris, which remains I believe the top selling game to this day. Though that is counting all its iterations, which may be cheating).

In any case, I take solace in the fact that it's a trend, and no trend is forever. I mean already even a couple years ago superhero movies were ubiquitous but now they seem to be on their way out (well there's still a bunch coming out, but they aren't getting anywhere near the attention they used to be getting, so maybe it'd be better to say they're hastily finishing their last drink before they start getting ready to be on their way out, but whatever). Soon the whole faction politics thing will have its time again.

Actually, it occurs to me that a lot of the problems with SC2 could be a result of Blizzard feeling like they've become popular enough that the blatant WH40K-ness of SC1 wasn't really something they could get away with anymore, and as a result felt pressured to make it more distinct. AKA worse.

 

[Average Manatee]

Heh, you didn't even have to spam Mutas in BW. I replayed it shortly before LotV came out and there were like two Zerg missions that I didn't win with 36 Hydras. Every time I hear people complain about how the SC2 campaigns are too easy compared to SC1 I never know what the hell they're talking about. I preferred the story of SC1 but SC2 is unquestionably more difficult IMHO (I'd say for two reasons: First, because the objectives themselves often force you to action rather than sitting around, building up your ideal force, and A-moving across the map, which was a totally viable strategy in I think every single SC1 mission; second because the AI seems slightly more intelligent about properly countering your army composition. No more responding to Hydras by massing Wraiths :/).

I don't think anyone (sane) has ever said that the SC/BW campaigns were difficult. They were just more fun, because SC is inherently more fun to play.

In SC2 every game devolves into doomballs (except for HotS where you could do 90% of the work with Kerrigan, with a doomball sitting half a screen away in case she needed support). Difficulty is kind of irrelevant when you can literally beat every map in WoL on Brutal by simply building barracks, mashing the marine hotkey, and doomballing marines (hilariously even medics are optional). Sure, its technically harder in that you need to build more units and macro better than in SC1, but SC2 makes doomballs so boring to use when you can simply 1-a whole maps.

 

[cvv]

In SC2 every game devolves into doomballs (except for HotS where you could do 90% of the work with Kerrigan, with a doomball sitting half a screen away in case she needed support). Difficulty is kind of irrelevant when you can literally beat every map in WoL on Brutal by simply building barracks, mashing the marine hotkey, and doomballing marines (hilariously even medics are optional). Sure, its technically harder in that you need to build more units and macro better than in SC1, but SC2 makes doomballs so boring to use when you can simply 1-a whole maps.

Funny thing in Dune 2, where it all began, doomballs were not really a thing iirc. D2 was quite primitive in hindsight ofc but at least you couldn't just a-moved across the map, facerolling everything. It's been 20 years (jesus) but I still remember carefully microing the rocket launchers and tanks to avoid enemy turrets, dem nerve gas spewers or worms. Also I don't think this was a huge problem in C&Cs and Red Alerts either. It just Blizzard can't into strategy desig, or maybe doesn't give a shit.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I think production values contribute the most to SC1 feeling darker

It had a dark, washed out color palette
Grody looking terran and zerg structures
Grainy filters and forced lag over all the talking heads
Voice actors who sounded terse and pissed off all the time
Harsh instruments in the soundtrack
Combat sounds and death screams had a lot of punch

All things SC2 lacks

 

[hello friend]

Make no mistake, they killed the lore.

I see a lot of complaints about protoss in this thread, and I'm not sure I get it. Are they really that different from sc1?

Well. The Tal'darim weren't too bad, in the context of the xel'naga plotline. Then again, that plotline was lame and gay. I was so stoked after that SC1 mission with Duran and the hybrids - they could have spun that in a number of different directions. And this was what they chose.

Some of the changes are a direct result of this. The interesting thing about the Protoss has always been their culture, this fanatic mystic warrior cult theocracy, kind of like a mix of Knights Hospitaller and Shaolin monks. Very collectivistic. In LotV, they all leave the Khala and end the caste system. You could say that individualism runs like a red thread through all the SC2 campaigns. It's almost like some kind of evangelism. I'll just say this: If you enjoy that sort of shallow sermonising, let me point you to some books by Terry Goodkind.

Not many significant changes lorewise apart from that. That doesn't matter though, because presentation is one half of story. And boy, is it bad. The dialogue is like something lifted from a bad fanfic. They dropped the ball on the casting of voice actors, too. Pretty funny when you come under attack, and those slow, measured voices unhurriedly notifying you of this urgent situation - "Esteemed Commander. The enemy has initiated hostilities at the perimeter of your base of operations. It is strongly advised that you react to this situation with hostilities of your own, honourable leader. After all, is it not true that brave warriors of noble lineage are dying as we speak?" Unengaged and unengaging. Just like the rest of the campaign.

Some other minor nitpicks: I'm not 100% sure, but if memory serves protoss are supposed to have two opposable thumbs. Most of the people in your war council have pauldrons on their pauldrons. Artanis even has an extra set of pauldrons hovering above that. Protoss engineer guy has a beard, wtf. Their animations are pretty funny too - everyone's constantly swaying back and forth and shrugging their shoulders and pumping their fists. Fenix in particular looks like he's having an epileptic fit in slow motion. Why are some warp blades green? A warp blade is a warp blade. For that matter, why do Amon's forces have a Sith reskin? Is it his evil that makes things change colour?

And Zeratul used to be cool.

A few other things worth mentioning. Why do the characters in SC2 campaigns get so emotional over dead marines. They're basically violent criminals serving out their sentence as an long succession of suicide missions, all the while pumped full of various drugs that make them go insane over time. A marine that survives long enough will probably be reduced to a drooling wreck. Pump and dump is the idiom, I believe.

Was also pretty funny towards the end, when the xel'naga tells Kerrigan she needs to merge her essence with him, and winks his four left eyes slowly at her. It's just a part of the animation cycle, but I found the timing very amusing.

But hey! They brought the reavers back. Silver lining to every cloud.

In conclusion:

 

[hello friend]

I think production values contribute the most to SC1 feeling darker

It had a dark, washed out color palette
Grody looking terran and zerg structures
Grainy filters and forced lag over all the talking heads
Voice actors who sounded terse and pissed off all the time
Harsh instruments in the soundtrack
Combat sounds and death screams had a lot of punch

All things SC2 lacks

Terran aesthetic in SC1 reminds me a lot of Ridley Scott's Alien.

I mean I know you weren't being entirely serious, but I think there is this sense overall that we look at the creative art produced by disturbed individuals and become enamored with this narrative of the brilliance of the dark mind when in reality that's not often the case. Disturbed geniuses are brilliant because they're geniuses, not because they're disturbed. Source? All the disturbed people out there who aren't brilliant.

I think a part of it could also be that happy people often have a lot going on, and spread their attention and energy on hobbies, social life, work etc. Sometimes people who are having a bad time pour a lot of themselves into something to distract them from feeling like shit (one of the things that can drive people to, for example, workaholism), which can result in strong focus. Focus is one of the major requirements for good art. Not that SC1 is some artwork masterpiece, though. It's a cool game with a cool story.

 

[Jaedar]

Not many significant changes lorewise apart from that. That doesn't matter though, because presentation is one half of story. And boy, is it bad. The dialogue is like something lifted from a bad fanfic. They dropped the ball on the casting of voice actors, too. Pretty funny when you come under attack, and those slow, measured voices unhurriedly notifying you of this urgent situation - "Esteemed Commander. The enemy has initiated hostilities at the perimeter of your base of operations. It is strongly advised that you react to this situation with hostilities of your own, honourable leader. After all, is it not true that brave warriors of noble lineage are dying as we speak?" Unengaged and unengaging. Just like the rest of the campaign.

Yeah the presentation is.... ugh.

Especially since most of the time, all the characters are just infodumping stuff that they read from the script. Of course terran emp generators use solarite (an ancient protoss resource for powering artificial suns no one has ever talked about before)!

Your point about psi blades is interesting. I seem to recall the dark templar ones were always depicted as green, but a cursory google search revealed no definite sc1 stuff that showed it.

 

[Keshik]

A few other things worth mentioning. Why do the characters in SC2 campaigns get so emotional over dead marines. They're basically violent criminals serving out their sentence as an long succession of suicide missions, all the while pumped full of various drugs that make them go insane over time. A marine that survives long enough will probably be reduced to a drooling wreck. Pump and dump is the idiom, I believe.

I think post-SC1, there were more volunteers in Raynor's group or the Dominion. Is kind of funny wondering where Raynor got all the crew for his vehicles and his infantry in WoL, even if it's logic v. gameplay in an RTS

 

[Lone Wolf]

Terran aesthetic in SC1 reminds me a lot of Ridley Scott's Alien.

James Cameron's 'Aliens', more like.

Marines even use the 'How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?' line.

 

[kris]

Heh, you didn't even have to spam Mutas in BW. I replayed it shortly before LotV came out and there were like two Zerg missions that I didn't win with 36 Hydras. Every time I hear people complain about how the SC2 campaigns are too easy compared to SC1 I never know what the hell they're talking about. I preferred the story of SC1 but SC2 is unquestionably more difficult IMHO (I'd say for two reasons: First, because the objectives themselves often force you to action rather than sitting around, building up your ideal force, and A-moving across the map, which was a totally viable strategy in I think every single SC1 mission; second because the AI seems slightly more intelligent about properly countering your army composition. No more responding to Hydras by massing Wraiths :/).

I don't think anyone (sane) has ever said that the SC/BW campaigns were difficult. They were just more fun, because SC is inherently more fun to play.

If I remember correctly you could change gamespeed in SC1 campaign which would make it trivial. clearly i was more of a strategist than a fast clicker and then a lower speed made a huge difference.

 

[mastroego]

If I remember correctly you could change gamespeed in SC1 campaign which would make it trivial. clearly i was more of a strategist than a fast clicker and then a lower speed made a huge difference.

You do remember correctly.
When I found out that you couldn't do it in SC2 I gave up on the game.
I wanted to have fun with the Single Player campaign, I had no interest in practicing with fingers and keyboard for an e-sport.

 

[Average Manatee]

In SC2 every game devolves into doomballs (except for HotS where you could do 90% of the work with Kerrigan, with a doomball sitting half a screen away in case she needed support). Difficulty is kind of irrelevant when you can literally beat every map in WoL on Brutal by simply building barracks, mashing the marine hotkey, and doomballing marines (hilariously even medics are optional). Sure, its technically harder in that you need to build more units and macro better than in SC1, but SC2 makes doomballs so boring to use when you can simply 1-a whole maps.

Funny thing in Dune 2, where it all began, doomballs were not really a thing iirc. D2 was quite primitive in hindsight ofc but at least you couldn't just a-moved across the map, facerolling everything. It's been 20 years (jesus) but I still remember carefully microing the rocket launchers and tanks to avoid enemy turrets, dem nerve gas spewers or worms. Also I don't think this was a huge problem in C&Cs and Red Alerts either. It just Blizzard can't into strategy desig, or maybe doesn't give a shit.

Doomballs were never a huge thing in any RTS I can think of until SC2, with its combination of effortless grouping of limitless units, multi-building select (enabling effortless spamming of the same unit), and units all pathing way too well and effortlessly moving through each other. C&C had the limitless unit grouping but never had the latter two. Units pathed into and blocked each other, masses of "small" units was still more troublesome to produce than large units and didn't mass their fire in 100% efficient ways like SC2 marine balls do, and even masses of big units were slow with cumbersome pathing.

To be fair to Blizzard I think it was hard to predict how the changes in SC2 would lead to degenerate doomballing. Taken individually the changes looked like good ones and by the time they were realized to be bad things it was far too late to fix the game.

If I remember correctly you could change gamespeed in SC1 campaign which would make it trivial. clearly i was more of a strategist than a fast clicker and then a lower speed made a huge difference.

You do remember correctly.
When I found out that you couldn't do it in SC2 I gave up on the game.
I wanted to have fun with the Single Player campaign, I had no interest in practicing with fingers and keyboard for an e-sport.

I'm pretty sure the easier difficulties do lower the speed a bit. In any case the "grid" keyboard layout makes hotkeys effortless to memorize since QWERT/ASDFG/ZXCVB correspond to where the action is located on the UI. Its by far the best thing to come out of SC2 and any RTS since that doesn't copy it needs to be put to death.

 

[mastroego]

Yeah, but some games I want to play relaxed on the chair, facing the computer from a weird angle, lazily moving the mouse and hitting the few buttons I can still reach with the other hand (the angle makes the keyboard awkward to use).
In SC1 I could do that, as I could slow it to a crawl for the most heated moments and keep doing stuff with the mouse.
Sure anyone could have crushed me but I played SP and just had fun amassing thematic armies and things like that.

SC2 forces you to become an hot-key player and to play the game "competitive style".

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, but some games I want to play relaxed on the chair, facing the computer from a weird angle, lazily moving the mouse and hitting the few buttons I can still reach with the other hand (the angle makes the keyboard awkward to use).
In SC1 I could do that, as I could slow it to a crawl for the most heated moments and keep doing stuff with the mouse.
Sure anyone could have crushed me but I played SP and just had fun amassing thematic armies and things like that.

SC2 forces you to become an hot-key player and to play the game "competitive style".

If anything SC2 campaign is great for that. Just know the build marine key, the stim key, and the attack key, you won't even need to slow down the game since you'll just a-move to victory for all of WoL. Plus as I said, the beauty of Grid layout is that since it puts every hotkey under your left hand you don't need to fuck around with keyboard gymnastics to easily utilize the shortcuts. I play while leaning back and relaxing in my chair as well.

Alternatively download Cheat Engine and bind -/+ to the speedhack function. I don't use it for SC2 but it works for other games (usually ones I want to speed up, but slowing down should work too).

 

[Angthoron]

Blizz uses an anti-cheat program that launches when you launch one of their games. Cheat Engine used to be on the list of "We'll not run your game until you turn it off" programs, at least for WoW, and I'd imagine they're doing the same for D3 and SC2 because multiplayer.

 

[whysoserious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuExKlyfs_g

 

[MilesBeyond]

Holy crap I'd forgotten how much the casting has improved since the BW days. That guy spends like half the match babbling on about how Flash is actually a robot.

 

[kris]

I started playing this and like HotS I skip half the dialogue. I dont even listen to them talking about the missions anymore. Why is Shakuras falling when in BW they had a temple that could cleanse the planet from Zerg? Ah, whatever, shields+photon cannons, what a combination!

 

[80s Stallone]

People here are seriously overrating the story and the writing of the first StarCraft game... not to say that one was partially developed by Kevin J. Anderson, the sci-fi hack.

 

[mastroego]

Ok guys I really need your Prestigious Codexian help.

I've tried investigating about Manatee's suggestion, but I'm confused.
Apparently that speed hack would work but you'd need to slow down the entire game, down to the movies, at a configuration level.
That'd be annoying, not to mention there's the whole issue of the thing not being allowed if you are connected and such.

According to some other random forum posters though, it would seem that the option to slow down the game directly from the game options is, in fact, present and working.
Maybe it was added in later patches?

Now, this is "crucial", because if I could play it like I did the original, leisurely slowing down the messy parts and bringing the speed up again when needed with a (relatively) quick gesture, I might buy the collection for the Single Player alone. Otherwise, it'd be a pointless purchase for me.
So can any of you shed some light on this issue?
Thanks a lot!

 

[kris]

People here are seriously overrating the story and the writing of the first StarCraft game... not to say that one was partially developed by Kevin J. Anderson, the sci-fi hack.

i seen no sign of this. People here dont say that story was great, more like it was adequate or entertaining enough. It surerly was more grounded. But the bigger problem is how in your face the story become now, how dense it is. (apart from being terrible!) I played like 3-4 missions and has already invaded and escaped Aiur and now evacuating Shakuras. when playing a strategy game the story is more likely getting in the way of the gameplay and by LoV it is worse than ever, at least early on.

Now, this is "crucial", because if I could play it like I did the original, leisurely slowing down the messy parts and bringing the speed up again when needed with a (relatively) quick gesture, I might buy the collection for the Single Player alone. Otherwise, it'd be a pointless purchase for me.
So can any of you shed some light on this issue?
Thanks a lot!

Can check when I get home in two hours.

 

[Rake]

People here are seriously overrating the story and the writing of the first StarCraft game... not to say that one was partially developed by Kevin J. Anderson, the sci-fi hack.

Eh, it's a strategy game. Anything at Warcraft 3 and above level is ok in my book. I can't see a strategy game becoming a literaly experience or even having a great plot.