RPG's with great cryomancy/hydromancy/etc

[Cryomancer]

I have a topic to discuss necromancy in RPG's ( https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/best-necromancy-on-rpgs.130867/ ), Other aspect of magic which I really enjoy is the cryomancy, hidromancy and similar stuff. Recently, I tried to do a Azata Cryomancer(Elemental specialist - cold) run in PF:WoTR and sadly it din't worked well cuz Ice prison spell was bugged, so I will wait till it gets fixed.

That said, some games which great water/ice magic are IMO :

• Might & Magic VI/VII -> You have great damaging spells like ice bolt, poison spray and a lot of utility spells. Can teleport, enchant items, walk in water and so on.
• Gothic 2 + Returning mod. Water mages guild is the hardest guild to join(and it makes sense due gothic 1 story), the spells are divided in circles, so you go from ice arrows(1) to ice spears(2), to highly dense water firsts(5) and geysers(6)
• Pathfinder Kingmaker - Water/Cold kineticist. Is not great as a fire/earth due deadly earth + poor AI + lack of fly but still great IMO.
• Gothic 3. Despite all critiques towards Gothic 3, water magic in the game is great. The end game spells like time bubble.
• DDO - Water Savant sorcerer (contrary to D&D, in DDO, casters needs to be specialized, sorcs specialize in a element and wizards in a spell school). There is also a cold based warlock pact which has a lot of really nasty ice spells.
• Dark Souls 3 - Convergence mod.
• Two Worlds 1 - Decent game(not great) and amazing water magic.

A video of me commiting a Orc Genocide in G2 - Returning

A video showiung spells in convergence mod for DS3

Black Geyser has the "wintermage" class but honestly, it is pure trash. It is just a very nerfed version of the traditional caster.

 

[ItsChon]

Outside of action RPGs, I feel like magic has been woefully unexplored in isometric RPGs. Most famous fantasy isometric RPGs are built off of the back of DnD systems, which isn't really the same vibe as the examples you've posted. Would love to see an isometric RPG with these kind of magic systems. The issue is, any magic system where mages can do very powerful elemental magic as shown in some of these videos/examples, will undoubtedly be the most powerful thing in said setting. There is just no way a non magical warrior could compete with a high powered Hydromancer for example, regardless of all the enchantments/charms they have.

Sadly, most RPGs are built with the idea of equality in mind, so I doubt we'll ever get a game where mages are supremely powerful in comparison to any other non magic user, even if that's the most realistic. I'd love a game where magic is off limits to your character, so your melee/ranged fighter has to think of all sorts of creative ways to eliminate a high powered sorcerer with charms and magical defenses. Would make for some amazing encounter design.

Regardless, would love to see some more clips, as the Gothic 2 video looked great, even if I'm not a fan of third person RPGs.

 

[oscar]

Agreed with above. Wizards should be powerful scary motherfuckers capable of taking out your party on their own. Much better suited as antagonists than party members (unless the plot makes abundantly clear they're some junior untrained apprentice chump). More like Gandalf and Saruman than a walking miniature fireball machinegun.

 

[Cryomancer]

The issue is, any magic system where mages can do very powerful elemental magic as shown in some of these videos/examples, will undoubtedly be the most powerful thing in said setting. There is just no way a non magical warrior could compete with a high powered Hydromancer for example, regardless of all the enchantments/charms they have.

Sadly, most RPGs are built with the idea of equality in mind

Just like equality ruin countries, balance ruins games. I rather play with a historically accurate Bf 210 in Warthunder than a very "balanced" version of that plane in heroes & generals.

As for Gothic, keep in mind that this is END GAME water mage and I'm using the returning 2.0 mod. You can't cast this spells for 95% of the game except by very limited and expensive spell scrolls. You will spend most of the game casting circle 1~4 spells which aren't "army slaying" spells. This with the mod returning 2.0 or without it(which lacks water mage as a joinable guild). Becoming a mere circle 1 mage is a long quest in itself in the game. Took 14 hours for me to become a necromancer and water mages are even harder. BTW the mod is over 150 hours long.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Knights of the Chalice 2 does that perfectly, Red mages being pyromancers, druid being able to specialize in an element, geomancers gets more powerful earth spells like earthquake and quicksand and get a specific summon (crystal golem, i think), wind gets better lightning and guts of wind spells being able to push bigger creatures and so on, those two being the best one.

You can also specialize your cleric or bishop in healing spells and increase their range and efficiency, it's nice to be able to heal from afar even if some other domains are way more powerful.

It's great to get useful and even powerful domain specializations, that's one of the things ToEE completely missed.

 

[Lance Treiber]

hidromancy

I accidentally misread it as hideomancy and thought this was a really cool idea - magic that makes things ugly. Or floods the senses with things so disgusting, it could damage the psyche.

Water magic is extremely mundane and low effort from the design standpoint. Real life applications are very low key. You can sense large bodies of water, which helps you in navigation. You can detect cyclones and anticyclones, with which you can forecast weather a bit. You can maybe help the crops grow. Perhaps water purification to make drinkable water for the unfortunate African-style regions. It's not exactly the definition of heroic magic.

The other implication is that if a water mage is able of summoning water from the elemental plane of water at will, we'll eventually drown. There must be some hygiene protocols in place - mages need to take the same amount of water back after they've used it.

That's it. That's the whole class.

Why do they throw icicles in games?

Combat wise, I don't see why water magic would entail temperature manipulation of water. Seems like this would the domain of a thermomancer and he'd be able to heat up or cool down any matter - accelerate the vibration of atoms, the substance heats up. As for throwing already formed icicles, that would be the domain of a telekenesis mage. A World of Warcraft type of "water mage" that can form ice and throw it is lazy fantasy to me.

I think if you're capable of temperature manipulation and you're in the telekenesis business, you could do a lot more than throw icicles. You'd microwave somebody's face off. You'd throw the guy 100 meters into the air and let gravity do its thing. Water? More like Watever.

 

[Cryomancer]

low effort from the design standpoint. Real life applications are very low key. You can sense large bodies of water, which helps you in navigation. You can detect cyclones and anticyclones, with which you can forecast weather a bit. You can maybe help the crops grow. Perhaps water purification to make drinkable water for the unfortunate African-style regions. It's not exactly the definition of heroic magic.

That's it. That's the whole class.

WATER magic would have 1001 utilities. In agriculture, medicine, energy generation, stealth, gastronomy, transportation logistics, industry (high pressure water is used to cut stuff IRL) assassination by creating a mist/fog and in a naval campaign, can make your ships faster and sink enemy ships. Horrid wilting is very deadly in baldurs gate and is just one spell exploring the capability of water magic.

Look to gurps water college spells to see all utilities.

 

[Lance Treiber]

WATER magic would have 1001 utilities.

You didn't grasp my differentiation of magic by element vs magic by discipline, I think.

If you operate in the "magic by element" universe, then I can say that MILK magic would have the exact same 1001 utilities.

Let's look at the "magic by element" system. You want your water mage to have all possible disciplines, but they'd work loosely only on your element.
The problem with your approach is that it's effectively unlimited in power.
Matter creation: you can create water in someone's lungs or skull.
Matter purification: turn their whole blood to water.
Matter teleportation: teleport the water out of their body, drying it up instantly.
Matter thermal regulation: freeze up their eyeballs.
Matter telekenesis: move a person's body by "grabbing" their water part. Self-telekenesis: can fly, too?
Sentient matter: create water elementals.
Shape matter: create water-based ANYTHING. Make houses out of water, then permanently freeze it. Within a year, you'll eradicate homelessness.
Etc, etc.
There's no limits to this power. As soon as you have water elementals, you're already living in a post-scarcity utopia, because they do all the work.
As for the the destructive possibilities of all these disciplines combined, they kill all narrative possibilities and it's much more difficult to systematize. It's like Harry Potter kind of magic, or WoW kind of magic, the stupid kind. You can pull any cat out of any hat, so it becomes plot shield.
You can _attempt_ to systematize it in order to limit its power. For example: yes, you can telekinetically lift water, but no more than 1 kilogram and no less than 50 grams (you don't want micro manipulations at the atomic level, they're too OP). You can move it around, but not faster than 1 kg/km/h. The range needs to be defined. Mist creation would need a lot of (autistic?) calculations that I don't even want to think about.

So why is this "water magic" so OP? And what makes it distinct from milk magic? If you say that blood is just impure water, I can say that water is just incomplete milk and perform all of the same things I just listed.

Or you can say "milk magic" ONLY works with real, actual milk. And you need to touch it. And you can't create more of it. And you need eye contact. And you can't give it sentience. Etc.
Now all of a sudden, it's much more restrictive, and it becomes "playable" or narratively sane.
However, if you then follow this line of thinking and restrict water magic to "requires touch, requires line of sight, can't create more of it, must be strictly water, can't be sentient, etc", then we come back to my conclusion that water magic is boring. And blood magic is much cooler by comparison.

Magic by discipline is much more graceful at its core than magic by element, but that's a topic for another conversation.

 

[Cryomancer]

they kill all narrative possibilities and it's much more difficult to systematize. It's like Harry Potter kind of magic, or WoW kind of magic, the stupid kind

For example: yes, you can telekinetically lift water, but no more than 1 kilogram and no less than 50 grams (you don't want micro manipulations at the atomic level, they're too OP). You can move it around, but not faster than 1 kg/km/h. The range needs to be defined. Mist creation would need a lot of (autistic?) calculations that I don't even want to think about.

I din't mentioned WoW or Harry Potter. I mentioned games like Gothic 2 + Returning mod and TT games like GURPS.

A circle 1 water mage in Gothic 2 - Returning can just throw a arrow shaped ice projectile few times and ran out of "mana". A circle 4 can freeze enemies, raise ice golems. A circle 6 can create geysers, deadly army slaying storms and so on. In G2, you follow the progression : Circle 1~3 = Mage. Circle 4/5 = High mage. Circle 6 = Archmage. That harsh limitation which you mentioned makes perfectly sense for a noob, but not for a archmage. Same with "fire" magic, not every fire magic should be able to conjure rains of fire. This system is NOTHING like WoW or Harry Potter magic.

In GURPS, here is the water college incomplete. If you wanna to be able to create geysers. You need to learn : Seek water -> Purify Water -> Create Water -> Destroy Water -> Dry spring -> Create Spring -> (more 4 fire or earth spells as you need to understand a bit of this two) -> geyser. Same with other colleges. Even if your char has high IQ, would take years(if not decades) to reach the point where he can create geysers. Bellow, the incomplete water college from gurps.

Each one of this spells has clearly defined limitations in range, costs and so on.

 

[JarlFrank]

Sadly, most RPGs are built with the idea of equality in mind, so I doubt we'll ever get a game where mages are supremely powerful in comparison to any other non magic user, even if that's the most realistic. I'd love a game where magic is off limits to your character, so your melee/ranged fighter has to think of all sorts of creative ways to eliminate a high powered sorcerer with charms and magical defenses. Would make for some amazing encounter design.

I'd love to see that. That's pretty much the premise of the entire sword & sorcery genre: stereotypical barbarian who's strong, agile, and quick-witted has to use his strength and smarts to outwit the powerful sorceress who uses her otherworldly charm and eldritch magic that can warp reality.
It also allows magic to stay mysterious rather than having all its rules explained mechanically, robbing it of its mysticism.

 

[Cryomancer]

LOL. I create a topic to see if someone knows more games with a great type of magic and people are wanting magic only for enemies...

 

[Dorateen]

I always enjoyed how in the Gold Box games, a magic-user could cast Cone of Cold on an enemy mage protected with Fireshield, and it would do exponentially greater damage, as much as 400 hp.

Also:

Spoiler

 

[Stoned Ape]

I'd like a magic system similar to the one the Stormbringer tabletop RPG used to simulate Michael Moorcok's Elric saga.

Magic comes from pacts with elementals, demons, and other extra-dimensional entities such as the Beastlords.

Depending upon knowing the correct mantras, summoning objects, ect you can make deals with entities of various powers that allow you to call greater powers for aid (if it alligns with their overall goals) or bond weaker entities into material objects for specific purposes.

So a mage wouldn't cast a fireball spell, he'd bond a lesser fire elemental into a wand and use that to launch fireballs until the pact ran out.

I'm not sure if it would translate perfectly into a CRPG, but I think it would at least be something a bit different.

 

[Cryomancer]

So a mage wouldn't cast a fireball spell, he'd bond a lesser fire elemental into a wand and use that to launch fireballs until the pact ran out.

Having to need a outsider "patron" to learn magic seems cool. But the idea of imbuing spirits into objects and needing it and a pact running out, I din't liked TBH. BTW, do you have any CRPG to recommend?