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Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

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This Kickstarter fad isn't going to last. It's ironic how both Wasteland 2 and now Pillars of Eternity get roasted on this site.

I don't agree with the general consensus at all. I enjoyed the little I've played of Wasteland 2 and will enjoy the rest of Pillars of Eternity.
 

circ

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I agree with the review although I personally would have probably been even more negative if possible. Roxor also brought up an interesting aspect that hasn't been discussed that much that I've seen in the PoE subforum - stat similarity. Every caster; priest, wizard, druid and cipher will, or should, have the exact same stats. In D&D by comparison or any other well designed and thought out system you have a lot of variety in stats even between casters. One caster might go for charisma like Sorcerer, a priest will if I recall, want wisdom and so on. In PoE it's - max might, intellect and put some points into dexterity while you're at it. Non-casters have a little more choice although the basic blueprint remains the same - might, dex, third stat. And the stats just don't feel at all interesting either.

I'm just amazed how this was actually planned and isn't a major bug instead.
 
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This Kickstarter fad isn't going to last. It's ironic how both Wasteland 2 and now Pillars of Eternity get roasted on this site.

I don't agree with the general consensus at all. I enjoyed the little I've played of Wasteland 2 and will enjoy the rest of Pillars of Eternity.
The consensus has been overwhelmingly positive for all of the high profile kickstarters. :lol:
 
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This Kickstarter fad isn't going to last. It's ironic how both Wasteland 2 and now Pillars of Eternity get roasted on this site.

I don't agree with the general consensus at all. I enjoyed the little I've played of Wasteland 2 and will enjoy the rest of Pillars of Eternity.
The consensus has been overwhelmingly positive for all of the high profile kickstarters. :lol:

It's just the vocal minority screaming/whining against it.
 

boobio

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I thought it was about time that a game incorporated past lives into its storyline.
3K5ck5S.png
This needs to be a new smilie.
 

roshan

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I agree with the review although I personally would have probably been even more negative if possible. Roxor also brought up an interesting aspect that hasn't been discussed that much that I've seen in the PoE subforum - stat similarity. Every caster; priest, wizard, druid and cipher will, or should, have the exact same stats. In D&D by comparison or any other well designed and thought out system you have a lot of variety in stats even between casters. One caster might go for charisma like Sorcerer, a priest will if I recall, want wisdom and so on. In PoE it's - max might, intellect and put some points into dexterity while you're at it. Non-casters have a little more choice although the basic blueprint remains the same - might, dex, third stat. And the stats just don't feel at all interesting either.

I'm just amazed how this was actually planned and isn't a major bug instead.

Well to be honest, DND did not really set a high bar for stats, and when it came to primary stats, it was all really samey. Wizards maxed INT, Sorcerers maxed CHA, Priests maxed WIS. But what was more interesting was how you could round out the character in different ways. STR, DEX and CON were all beneficial to casters, just in different ways, and CHA was also useful for priests aside from WIS.
 

RK47

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They also got used for dialogues and skill checks.
A high INT mages gets bonus to his Lore.
A high CHA paladin becomes more diplomatic.
 

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This Kickstarter fad isn't going to last. It's ironic how both Wasteland 2 and now Pillars of Eternity get roasted on this site.

I don't agree with the general consensus at all. I enjoyed the little I've played of Wasteland 2 and will enjoy the rest of Pillars of Eternity.
The consensus has been overwhelmingly positive for all of the high profile kickstarters. :lol:

It's just the vocal minority screaming/whining against it.

Metacritic is littered with the corpses of high-critic/user-rated franchises that sold poorly. Most of the Kickstarters were running off the fumes of either A: The Kickstarter fad itself or B: Nostalgia for much better games e.g. Shadowrun/Infinity Engine series. In my opinion PoE's popularity/sales vs. costs will sustain it long enough for a sequel (unless they squander it on DLC dungeon crawls) but a mediocre showing there will kill Obshitian's pseudo-CRPG revival.
 

mydnight

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Someone should do a "fairer" comparison between PoE, Divinity: OS and Wasteland2.

Were we REALLY expecting this to be better than BG2, or for Numenera to be better than Planescape???
 

POOPERSCOOPER

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So if POE is not good, and Wasteland 2 and DOS are not good then is this the end good RPGs? I don't have time to play that many RPGs anymore and was hoping atleast one good one would come out and remind me of the good old days.

I know Vault Dwellers review is going to come out and say the game is good even though it's not because he has a tendency to makes his reviews serve his agenda of promoting the RPG industry. It's a sad state of affairs if Shadowrun which is kind a of a simple RPG comes out and knocks out all the "serious" RPGs.

P.S. MCA should have directed this game.
 

Kane

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Tags: Darth Roxor; Obsidian Entertainment; Pillars of Eternity

Darth Roxor has written a number of reviews for us at the Codex. He's covered a whole range of games both old and new such as Shadowrun Returns, NWN 2: Storms of Zehir and Darklands among others (which I'd have put here but the search function is still on my list of things to fix). So what was his take on Obsidian Entertainment's first KickStarter project: Pillars of Eternity?

Despite the "hive mind consensus" that's often claimed, the Codex has always been about diversity of opinions. One of our founding tenets is that you are free to love or hate anything you want as long as you can explain why and back your opinion with arguments.

And Darth's opinion is that PoE is not good, just not good at all. Here's a bite:

When Obsidian Entertainment started their Kickstarter campaign for Pillars of Eternity in 2012 (under a working title of Project Eternity), many saw it as the second coming of Christ for cRPGs. There it was: the veteran developers from everyone’s beloved Black Isle Studios, reinforced by Tim Cain himself, wanted to bring us a modern successor to the Infinity Engine games. In their pitch, Obsidian described Eternity as something that would marry the combat of Icewind Dale, the narrative of Planescape: Torment and the exploration of Baldur’s Gate. Considering that a few years earlier Obsidian had given us the two Neverwinter Nights 2 expansions, Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir, that also fit parts of the above bill, it looked like there was no other choice but to get hyped.
[...]
Now, what do we make of PoE’s character system? Judged by its own merits, if I had to draw a comparison, I would call it the communism of character systems. Certainly, you have the feeling that everything you pick is kind of, sort of, equally useful (with some exceptions). But the flipside to this is that everything is also equally bland.
[...]
Your only reliable experience gains come from doing quests. That is certainly a reasonable approach by itself. It is however much less reasonable when you consider the amount of fighting you do in this game – all the trashmobs you steamroll through give you nothing, yet you are nevertheless forced to genocide them – most of this game’s playtime is spent fighting!
[...]
The bad encounter design and general lack of difficulty have one more very unfortunate result - they make exploring and dungeon-delving insanely boring. But make no mistake, this is also due to the dungeon design being very lacklustre to begin with.
[...]
Long story short, the stronghold has no use whatsoever. You can spend lots of money to fill it up with underlings and buildings, but nothing ever happens there. The buildings sell garbage. Your underlings don’t really do anything. Your free rest hall is behind 4 loading screens. You can even hold prisoners in a prison, and it has no effect on the game whatsoever. To say that the stronghold has been tacked on is the understatement of the century. Which is why I won’t even bother wasting more time talking about it.
[...]
The way the setting at large is presented to the player leaves a lot to be desired. PoE suffers a lot from its writers being obviously very proud of what they’ve done, so they make sure to tell you how awesome their setting is at every step – when an NPC starts talking about a distant place or a past event, brace yourself for a gigantic encyclopaedic infodump filled with dozens of alien names, regardless of whether the NPC is a commoner or a historian. This kind of exposition should be in the ‘cyclopedia’ section of the game’s journal, not in every second friggin’ dialogue.
[...]
Which brings us to what possibly surprised and disappointed me the most in PoE – the general writing quality is simply underwhelming. It never reaches any heights, it’s at best average and at worst abysmal. Everything is overly descriptive, very often just redundant and not leaving much for the player’s imagination. The majority of texts could easily be trimmed to one-third of their original size, which only tells me that PoE has never seen any editorial work apart from fishing out typos. One of the best examples I can think of is when you first meet Guy McBaddie the main villain, and the game makes sure to tell you at least three times that he is a bearded dude in a ceremonial robe and a fancy hat, even though the description is accompanied by two different illustrations in quick succession.​

I'll let you read the rest and judge for yourself.

Thanks to Darth Roxor for taking his time to review PoE for us, and stay tuned as we'll have some further perspectives on PoE before all is said and done.

Read the full article: RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity
JUXxGZk.jpg
 

Black

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Were we REALLY expecting this to be better than BG2
Goodness gracious, no! Who would really expect any game to be better than an over-glorified hack 'n slash using butchered AD&D.
Legends say that when the stars align we may see a game that comes close to the significance of BG2, but eh, I'm sceptical.

What a joke.
 

Andkat

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Stats in D&D (referring to NWN2 and 3.5e here) had specific secondary functions that weren't balanced across all stats- i.e. CHA contributed to a variety of useful skills (conversation skills, UMD, etc.), WIS boosted Will saves, Int increased skill point gain, etc. Moreover, different stat focuses and synergies opened up different possibilities- throw everything into WIS and taking a level or two of Monk to get +Wis becomes tempting, Cha-focused casters often were interested in grabbing levels of Paladin or Blackguard for the +Cha bonus to saves or things like Divine Might, etc. D&D 3e is still a silly and poorly balanced (especially in P&P) system but with its multiclassing options, prestige classes, and odd little synergies there was a lot of fun to be had with quirky or hyper-specialized/optimized builds.

Also the ability to take a given class in various directions- i.e. taking Wizards and Sorcerers into self-buffing gish directions via RDD/EK/etc., the ability of Clerics to focus on support or offensive casting or to self-buff and fight in the front lines (and do a lot of damage instead of just being some "tank"), sneaky wizards who could stealth in and out to avoid being targeted by dispels or slip away when their buffs expired, etc. Your initial attribute spread, while sometimes cut-and-dried, depended on where you wanted to take the build in the long run. I'm not saying D&D was great, but at least different classes had different priorities (as opposed to "ok I'm a DPS with some spells, 18 Might/Dex/Int, ok I'm a tank Con 18/Res 18/Per 18").

Also spellcasting was infinitely better (although self-buffing was a sort of cheese as very often enemy casters somehow didn't hear the massive racket you were making burning half the dungeon down getting to them and rarely were programmed to have a full complement of their own buffs on them when you stepped into the room) in terms of flexibility and entertainment value.

I'm also just genuinely baffled as to why Sawyer, etc. care so much about "balance" for a singleplayer game of all things. I'd rather have a mess of imbalanced madness (Arcanum, D&D 3.5e, like half the P&P rpgs ever made) that I can twist and turn in various quirky or broken directions than the really quite blanderized systems you see in PoE. It's not as if they succeeded in making a particularly and consistently challenging experience overall.
 

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throw everything into WIS and taking a level or two of Monk to get +Wis becomes tempting, Cha-focused casters often were interested in grabbing levels of Paladin or Blackguard for the +Cha bonus to saves or things like Divine Might, etc.
:nocountryforshitposters:
Spellcasting is the most powerful and versatile ability in the game. There is nothing worth giving up even one level of spellcasting for, especially if you're trading it for levels in a fucking joke class like Monk.
 
Last edited:

Volourn

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"might, dex, third stat. And the stats just don't feel at all interesting either."

Why is dex so important? I had a dex of 6 and it didn't mean anything.


"Twin Elms I think he means."

I figured that but I was pointing out his ignorance. If you can miss something like that your view on the game shouldn't be taken seriously - positive or negative.
 

MTwolves

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I agree with the majority of the review.
I think a big part of the problem for me is that the game felt watered-down.
There wasn't anything that really made it unique or memorable.

I can remember the reactivity and replay value of Arcanum.
The unique characters and secret bosses in New Vegas, like Lanius, Yes Man, Caesar, and the legendary Deathclaw.
In BG2, it was the sense of fulfillment of good vs evil, like raiding the vampire nest and unleashing Sunfire on the victims, or battling against Firkraag for the Holy Avenger, or barely defeating the Demilich.

POE just isn't a very memorable game. I feel like I can play it once and not want to play it again.
It doesn't really have a personality.
I honestly think maybe the designers tried too hard to make it a RPG for everyone that there really wasn't one area of excellence.

And some of the design decisions..., I was surprised that so many issues, especially regarding gameplay, slipped through the cracks.
The talents system, the stronghold, the weapons and armor systems, the classes, etc...

I really expected a little bit more thought placed on gameplay issues. I don't care as much about graphics or music, but gameplay in a roughly 30-40+ hour game is really important.
 

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So if POE is not good, and Wasteland 2 and DOS are not good then is this the end good RPGs? I don't have time to play that many RPGs anymore and was hoping atleast one good one would come out and remind me of the good old days.

I know Vault Dwellers review is going to come out and say the game is good even though it's not because he has a tendency to makes his reviews serve his agenda of promoting the RPG industry. It's a sad state of affairs if Shadowrun which is kind a of a simple RPG comes out and knocks out all the "serious" RPGs.

P.S. MCA should have directed this game.

There is Underrail, a truly great game and a true savior of RPG genre.
 

MTwolves

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"Also, I think the most striking parallel that I can put here is that 15 years ago when you killed a dragon in Baldur’s Gate 2, you could take its scale and craft yourself a bitchin’ suit of armour that would outshine most other ones in the game. In PoE, you can use the scale to add yourself a +2 damage reduction to your generic plate mail..."

I couldn't agree more with this. There's really no sense of accomplishment after beating tough bosses.
 

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So if POE is not good, and Wasteland 2 and DOS are not good then is this the end good RPGs? I don't have time to play that many RPGs anymore and was hoping atleast one good one would come out and remind me of the good old days.

I know Vault Dwellers review is going to come out and say the game is good even though it's not because he has a tendency to makes his reviews serve his agenda of promoting the RPG industry. It's a sad state of affairs if Shadowrun which is kind a of a simple RPG comes out and knocks out all the "serious" RPGs.

P.S. MCA should have directed this game.

I though DOS was acclaimed per Codex standards. Am I wrong?
 

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