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Romance in cRPGs - is it ever good?

Sneaky Seal

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Given it's St. Valentine's day and we are all sitting at home alone - let's discuss romance in cRPGs.
I guess the important question - does it ever work?
Most of the time it's pretty horrible (particularly when it's "pick option 1 in dialogue to get laid eventually" variant).

So is there a cRPG that did romance right? And how exactly did it do it?
If not - should we even bother to include it in some way in the Ash of Gods?
 
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Deinoarra point is excellent. Games are way too short and dialogue so sparse that actually witnessing characters believably fall for each other is rare. It makes sense if it happens before the game starts or outside of it. Very few pieces of fiction do a good job of showing characters fall in love in a short period of time - The Terminator is on that short list, and I think it does an incredible job of showing a romance between two characters in a tense, short, situation.
 

Sneaky Seal

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Deinoarra point is excellent. Games are way too short and dialogue so sparse that actually witnessing characters believably fall for each other is rare. It makes sense if it happens before the game starts or outside of it. Very few pieces of fiction do a good job of showing characters fall in love in a short period of time - The Terminator is on that short list, and I think it does an incredible job of showing a romance between two characters in a tense, short, situation.

That is a pretty good point, as I don't think establishing romance on screen ever did work in a cRPG, but not even other media but other games did (both Farenheit and Heavy Rain, for example).
 

Lacrymas

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If a 50ish hour game can't establish a romance, what about movies with romantic plots? I hate those in general, but an interesting point to think about. For me, only Visas Marr's "romance" makes sense and that's because it's not romance in the Biowarean sense. It was also pretty one-sided on her part, if even her love for you is a romantic love.
 
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Excidium II

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Yes.

Was it ever bad? The implementations were generally shallow but then again everything is relatively shallow in every CRPG ever compared to how much better it could be.

When a developer doesn't let me fuck te bitches I just assume he's trying to gain points with "Look how cool and machoor we are, we aren't bioware buy our games xDDD" like Obsidian often is.
 

DavidBVal

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The problem I see here is, when you're playing a game you want to achieve the game's objectives. All the rest is mere ornament and dressing. So maybe it could work in games that are mainly about romance, for the people that could enjoy such a thing. Anywhere else it will be just another quest.

Also, there's the matter of games as escapism from our boring, unadventurous lives; let me ask you a question. If in real life you were a sword-wielding hero, would you feel any thrill in playing games about that? Probably not. However, most of us already have wives/gfs/whatever, and probably more... let's say satisfactory than a pixelated one, so it can never have much appeal past certain age.
 

coldcrow

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Romances work only with all the sensory input and the little things. Exactly what can't be communicated via the CRPG medium. So the result is often cringeworthy - see Bioware romances. Deionarra was dead and was a hook in the game's story, so it kind of worked out.
You can't turn crpgs into kitsch romance literature without compeltely abandoning any pretense of being a serious game developer. Fuck you bioware.
 

Shadenuat

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I thought all Witcher 3 romance encounters were good, although I think only Yennefer quest features tough choice to make and real emotion. Concidering I am instinctively turned away from women of her type that's saying something.
Other good romances were mostly done by Obsidian and people who hate romances, like MoTB & KOTOR parts and PST.
JRPGs featured romances since forever, sometimes sweet, often fanservice'y, although it some respect their "light" and fanservice'y approach actually might not be a bad thing - games are there to entertain after all, and if that's the point you don't feel awkward since you know it's not serious writing.
Bioware, for all their later fault, did some nice stuff even in relatively new games. DA:O featured a romance for females that could get you into struggle if you were playing a non-noble in a world of nobles marrying nobles; and Morrigan, I think, was a good romance for males in terms of C&C and how "difficult" she was. Guessing what was the bitches problem was entertaining and her fucking you over for her own magical goals was nice.
BG2, I think, was good in respect that romances were prolongued, even into expansion; complicated due other NPCs present in party and not afraid to carry over into realms of future and family. In comparison, later games from Bioware just went for fuck'em and go for next one or something, where the goal for everything was a bad cutscene.
Modders are generally terrible, but some did stand out. Dynaheir romance in NPC project for BG1 was as lawful-good as it gets; and my personal favorite is Edwin romance for BG2 which is just so fun.

Some adventure games had cool romances, since those have a lot of time for characters to grow. The Last Express comes to mind with it's dramatic setting of meeting and breaking away because of WW1.

There is also a black pit of various obscure Eroges that can suddenly manifest psychologically-heavy instances of romantic writing, but that is due to their character-focused nature.

In the end what makes or breaks romance is writer's ability. Generally speaking, the one flaw of later Bioware is that it tries to be dramatic yet still falls into a realm of fanservice.

But the most difficult part is probably incorporating a romance into RPG where character is blank slate and people just can't roleplay, since that means everything is turned to the player. When you play game like Witcher, you begin sometimes to think what would Geralt do, and what is right and relevant for his character in the story. When you're in a sandbox, NPCs become your virtual waifus/husbands. Even JRPG eroges often work around that and just don't give you choice and make protagonist act on his own. KOTOR, PST and MoTB also did that - your character has a backstory that you, the player, had no control over during making him.

As a tl;dr, my opinion is:
- Light romances and fanservice shouldn't be ashamed of as long as they run along with overall style of the game (JRPGs, VTM: Bloodlines, and stuff written by Larian like Dragon Commander amazing waifus and D:OS pairing);
- Romances with pre-defined characters work better than with blank slates as proved by top storyfag RPGs;
- Incorporating setting nuances into romance makes them more "realistic" (arranged marriage in medieval game; being a force leecher in KOTOR who controls everyone without player realising it);
- Being good writer and understanding human nature can still trump over everything (Witcher 3). Might be easier than one thinks, concidering how low the bar is due to Bioware fucking up all the time.
- Personal Observation (of a game master who by the nature of games had to deal with everything including playing waifus himself because-well-shit): The cardinal rule of ye old storytelling of yore aka make player think and imagine things that are not explicitly stated in the story might be an elegant way out; since basically no_love in the setting completely is unrealistic, allowing player somehow aknowledge something, and NPC aknowledging that in return but without distasteful Bioware cutscenes can work pretty well. Old example: option to gift flowers to some NPCs in Ys 2 jrpg and one of those NPCs staying for a while to give you goodbye at the end of the game. Cute, simple, elegant, non-cringy.
 
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Oh ho ho, let me tell you about RPG romance.

Playing DA:O the other day. I can't stand Morrigan cause she's so bitchy, but Lelliana seemed ok. So I start giving her gifts to check out that whole option.

Then we get into this whole conversation about her past in Franc, erm, I mean Orleais. And she starts telling me about shoes. A whole in-depth convo about shoes, their accesories, heels, etc. I am starting to question myself at this point, but see, the thing was, I really needed to pick up a level because I was stuck on some hard fight in the dwarf lands, and I wasn't sure if romance options would provide experience or not, but I was desperate, since DA:O has most areas gated off so you can't grind for hard enemies. And that's why I romanced Lelliana and her shoes, my friends.

The moral being, if your RPG is really bad in many ways, romance CAN work, just like in real life, as both parties engage in it for practical purposes.
 

Fargus

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Yes, if it's not written by someone with 12 y\o mentality or by sjw (like modern Bioware). BG2 romances were actually pretty cool, disregard Aerie's romance. I also liked them in KOTOR 2 and Witcher games.

I don't really care if RPG has romance or not, not a selling point for me. My main concern is the plot\dialogue\characters, but if there is a romance that works well for the game i don't mind :)
 

Dorateen

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If we were talking about 19th century Romanticism, which found artistic expression in works such as those of Wagner and Beethoven, placing an emphasis on the supernatural, heroic and medievalism.

That kind of romance would be OK.
 

Haba

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Yeah, games have a much better chance of building up believable relationships than pretty much any other form of entertainment (due to the time invested). But the likelihood of seeing good romances in games is rather low... and even more so when it comes to (c)RPGs.

There is also a big difference when it comes to player roleplaying and player playing an established character. It is much easier to write two characters that complement each other and have a good chemistry than to write one character and try to guess what kind of interactions will fit what ever type of a character the player has rolled.

That's the main reason why the most successful RPG romances tend to come from games with predefined protagonist (Witcher, P:ST, Rance).

But it isn't like "romance" is something completely impossible. It just another tool in the toolbox. It can be sexy, it can be funny, it can be tragic etc. etc. Just don't drag it on for too long if you can't write it so that it carries itself.
 
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Excidium II

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Then we get into this whole conversation about her past in Franc, erm, I mean Orleais. And she starts telling me about shoes. A whole in-depth convo about shoes, their accesories, heels, etc. I am starting to question myself at this point, but see, the thing was, I really needed to pick up a level because I was stuck on some hard fight in the dwarf lands, and I wasn't sure if romance options would provide experience or not, but I was desperate, since DA:O has most areas gated off so you can't grind for hard enemies. And that's why I romanced Lelliana and her shoes, my friends.
I romanced her because she was the only lesbian npc.
 

octavius

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Notice the pattern already present ITT of hating romances and being a tryhard loser.

edit: lol one of them deleted the post.

I'm sure romances in CRPGs are p. exciting for someone who's never experienced it in real life, and who gets excited about pixelated nudity.
 

MRY

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A huge number of the systems in RPGs are just simplified power-fantasies -- it's not like romances are particularly less realistic than, say, stronghold management or NPCs turning over their major life decisions to you even just plain character progression. Some people get excited by clicking dialogue options and watching towers sprout overnight on their stronghold; other people get excited by clicking dialogue options and having a female party member swoon. If enough people get excited by the latter system, and it seems like they do, it's hard to say that it isn't working at its intended purpose. For most players though it's probably just another progress bar, and RPG players will be excited by any progress bar no matter what window dressing is on it.
 

Durandal

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I guess the problem with most romances is that you keep giving gifts or doing the romance sidequests of your partner until you eventually get to the sex scene and 'win', except afterwards there's rarely any romantic interaction to be had aside from some few lines and that's it. You may get to see some pixelated tittays and ass as a reward, but romance is not all about sex.
Games in general handle romances differently than in any other medium in that you have to actually try to get fictional characters to love you, which hampers the overall experience if you consider that YOUR WAIFU IS NOT REAL, and the progression of the romance can feel rather artificial and mechanical if you consider that all you have to do is pick the right dialogue options to get her to love you. Which is why as was mentioned before in the thread, romances tend to work better with pre-defined characters with their own personality and history with other characters rather than blank slates.
 

Maggot

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I did the lesbian romance in ADWR so it wasn't homo. Would do again :bounce:
 

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