"Role-Playing" Games that are an Example of the Illusion of Free Choice

[Saldrone]

RPGs that, despite being about decisions they all lead to the same path giving an artificial sense of choice. Whetever the game itself or some particular quest.

 

[Crispy]

I think you just described every BioWare game ever made.

Anyway, welcome to RPG Codex.

 

[Konjad]

Most of them, unfortunately. It's the minority that offers an actual C&C.

 

[lvl 2 Blue Slime]

But is the definition of an RPG really CYOA-style story choices? So games like Fallout where the first RPGs? I would put forward that what defines an RPG is progression, getting XP and levelling up.

 

[Glop_dweller]

One can make an RPG with no leveling up, and no getting XP. It is simply what the character would do in situ; Papillon —the RPG— might not be that exciting, but every day the character would have the choice to eat, to pace (or not) in his cell, shadow box the chain, and talk to those in the other cells. Essentially TES:Oblivion were the king never to visit the prison, and the PC never to escape. Would Oblivion suddenly not be an RPG if the player character never left the cell?

*Of course it's also possible to have the escape, and have the PC be limited to their equipment use (no leveling), and to manipulate the world without quest XP; only monetary and social rewards. Gameplay could still be about the character's exploration, and about their personal [skill & stat] limitations... they just wouldn't become a demi-god in two weeks.

 

[lvl 2 Blue Slime]

One can make an RPG with no leveling up, and no getting XP.

Yes but not without stat progression.

 

[Glop_dweller]

One can make an RPG with no leveling up, and no getting XP.

Yes but not without stat progression.

Why not?

Imagine a Witcher game where Geralt graduates as a competent adventurer... Does he really need to improve past graduation?

Fallout doesn't have stat progression.

*I am not stating that these mechanics don't make for a better game, they do, but I do not believe that they define a game as an RPG.

 

[Harthwain]

But is the definition of an RPG really CYOA-style story choices?

This is the limitation of cRPGs that are based on scripted narratives. That said, it is possible to create cRPGs that are more gameplay/system-oriented/sandboxes, but such RPGs are uncommon and it would require a separate debate on what C&C is (what qualifies as Choices and Consequences).

 

[NecroLord]

It should be a matter of making those choices meaningful and having consequences in the game.

 

[Saldrone]

I think you just described every BioWare game ever made.

Anyway, welcome to RPG Codex.

Thanks, i've been reading this forum various years ago and made my first contribution through this post

 

[Vulpes]

You mean like VtM Bloodlines and Deus Ex?

 

[Serus]

Most of them, unfortunately. It's the minority that offers an actual C&C.

This, I'd even say that when it comes to large scale or long term consequences of your choices - almost all.

 

[Peachcurl]

RPGs that, despite being about decisions they all lead to the same path giving an artificial sense of choice. Whetever the game itself or some particular quest.

That's nearly every RPG that has choices in the first place.

What is a 'meaningful' consequence anyways?
Clearly, having ending slides in 3 different colors ala Mass Effect 3 is not.
But are ending-slides by themselves, even if more complex, meaningful for the game? They don't change the game itself, only the conclusion.
If we follow that line of thinking, meaningful consequences have to impact the game itself. But where to draw the line? Does simply having combat suffice, as it implies (fatal) consequences of your actions? Or is that too immediate?

 

[ind33d]

The illusion of choice is irrelevant. You're not supposed to replay an RPG because that trivializes the decisions you made to begin with. I'm sure everyone thought you could stay with UNATCO in DX1, but the absence of that plotline does not matter as long as you are not aware it was cut, which you would learn on a subsequent replay.

 

[baturinsky]

Games with C&C and without leveling are usually called quests/VN, strategies, management or sims.

 

[Dorateen]

The most important choice and consequences happens in character/party creation. So anything lacking in this aspect is just an illusion.

 

[Axioms]

I mean if a game has a main storyline that terminates in an ending, how could there be choice and consequence? Linear Narrative RPGs can only let you engage with what the writers wrote. If they didn't write something then it can't happen.

Would a game with real choices and consequences even be a CRPG? CK2 had more choice and consequence than any RPG ever did. Of course it wasn't a walking simulator and many people only accept walking simulators as RPGs.

 

[Saldrone]

RPGs that, despite being about decisions they all lead to the same path giving an artificial sense of choice. Whetever the game itself or some particular quest.

That's nearly every RPG that has choices in the first place.

What is a 'meaningful' consequence anyways?
Clearly, having ending slides in 3 different colors ala Mass Effect 3 is not.
But are ending-slides by themselves, even if more complex, meaningful for the game? They don't change the game itself, only the conclusion.
If we follow that line of thinking, meaningful consequences have to impact the game itself. But where to draw the line? Does simply having combat suffice, as it implies (fatal) consequences of your actions? Or is that too immediate?

Oh well, looks like i'am overstimating the narrative aproach of RPGs since in Fallout New Vegas the way how you influence the world around not only determinates the ending but also the final confrontation (The Second Battle of Hoover) depending the factions you convince to help you or just absent due to being eradicated.

I mean if a game has a main storyline that terminates in an ending, how could there be choice and consequence? Linear Narrative RPGs can only let you engage with what the writers wrote. If they didn't write something then it can't happen.

Would a game with real choices and consequences even be a CRPG? CK2 had more choice and consequence than any RPG ever did. Of course it wasn't a walking simulator and many people only accept walking simulators as RPGs.

Similarly i had the same idea about Stellaris; It has many similarities to a role-playing game. (Such as the character (empire) creation, character (empire) building, emergent storytelling, decision making and dialogue (diplomacy) system to npcs (AI empires)) Yet is considered to be just a 4X Strategy Game.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

C&C is overrated. Player agency in how they prosecute the game/plot is far more important. Trying to make C&C influence plot is a fools errand. C&C should be like the Fallout 1 miltary base where you can draw away mutants with the radio, or poisoning the stag lord's wine in Kingmaker. The player achieves the same plot goal, but how they get there has player agency. This is proper C&C that is achievable as it doesn't demand different plots paths our outcomes.

 

[Axioms]

C&C is overrated. Player agency in how they prosecute the game/plot is far more important. Trying to make C&C influence plot is a fools errand. C&C should be like the Fallout 1 miltary base where you can draw away mutants with the radio, or poisoning the stag lord's wine in Kingmaker. The player achieves the same plot goal, but how they get there has player agency. This is proper C&C that is achievable as it doesn't demand different plots paths our outcomes.

So Baldur's Gate 3 style. Makes sense in a narrative RPG context.

 

[OSK]

All games are RPGs. If you disagree, you're a hateful, gate-keeping bigot.

 

[ind33d]

The C&C is supposed to be dying. Most RPGs are just too easy, so that never occurs

 

[Squirrel]

I don't mind it as long as it's:

• Fun to go through the motions
• Feels rewarding
• Not too awfully written

 

[std::namespace]

Age of Decadence

 

[Readher]

But is the definition of an RPG really CYOA-style story choices? So games like Fallout where the first RPGs? I would put forward that what defines an RPG is progression, getting XP and levelling up.