Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[SCO]

You can actually twist that bloodpool so makes it more suspicious not less. Since your vampire is 2 weeks old, having the potential to learn multiple level 5 disciplines in that time is plain more abnormal than your generation being fishy.

Normally generation is a hardcap to bloodpowers, but normal vampires still have to practice for several centuries to git gud. That your generation 'just happens' to match the level necessary to get to the powerful but not 'elder' disciplines level, and you do it in weeks, just screams 'manufactured weapon' to me, disregarding all the generation vampire pyramid scheme power fantasy speculation.

 

[Sykar]

You can actually twist that bloodpool so makes it more suspicious not less. Since your vampire is 2 weeks old, having the potential to learn multiple level 5 disciplines in that time is plain more abnormal than your generation being fishy.

Normally generation is a hardcap to bloodpowers, but normal vampires still have to practice for several centuries to git gud. That you generation 'just happens' to match the level necessary to get to the powerful but not 'elder' disciplines level, and you do it in weeks, just screams 'manufactured weapon' to me, disregarding all the generation vampire pyramid scheme power fantasy speculation.

It says "plot" to me...

 

[ASTRAL]

It says every "RPG protagonist" ever.

 

[SCO]

I'm also a cynical fan of Doylist arguments, but i happen to believe there are limits to them when concluding something about the work itself. Sure, XXX author idiocy or pandering might have caused something but it's no reason to disregard a in-setting explanation when the work explicitly says 'this happened'.

In this case, it's actually the last Domination fail from the Prince that the 'lower generation' argument hinges, and even disregarding that (and it's easy to disregard because it's only the 'last', so something must have changed inbetween, not necessarily your generation that you get at the start) does not necessarily make it so 'everything' is tabletop-shipshape as far as 'balance' goes as I highlighted.

Who knows (or cares), maybe Caine used a megaultra permanent Quietus on your sire or your pc to lower his generation artificially.

The game is a power fantasy already so players finding ways to get their power-gaming self-important jollies - though what's so great about being a useful object idk - and making that abnormality of a rpg protagonist on a tabletop setting less jarring - for them - while the game has the small amount of class not to say 'you're totally the best ever for certain' (ie: elder scrolls) on the narrative itself is a good thing to me. You can believe in the conspiracy theory, or not believe, as is perfectly thematic for the WoD, instead of having it confirmed by the writers sucking the player's genitalia, as many lesser games do.

 

[ShadowSpectre]

I find a lot of things were just made up later on to fit the Bloodlines tale. I mean "Caine" the taxi driver might just be Caine the Malkavian Imposter (still a lower gen vampire actually). Your ability to learn more powerful disciplines despite being of questionable generation is interesting but you can also chalk it up to gameplay mechanics. Even if we did ask the original devs what their intention was with all this, I still feel like we'd end up getting fed some post-release confirmation of theory just for the sake of it when in reality the game was developed with some minor oversights for the sake of gameplay. Or who knows, maybe it was their intent that the real Caine was the manipulator all along and all of LA was actually about to get devoured with your help setting it up, seeing as you were used by everyone else and so why not Caine too?

 

[SCO]

Considering that they named his dialog file 'Caine' and the game came out because the setting was being retired, yes, that was likely the intent. I mean, the author is dead and all, and you can absolutely consider the cab driver some lasombra troll or whatever and the entire bullshit 'hints' just typical jyhad trolling without any substance to your humble pc.

But, from a out of universe perspective, the signs don't look good. In the end it doesn't matter, this whole obscurity has no sure answer purposefully to be memorable, and it served its psychological purpose well.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Bloodlines was in development for, like, 3 years. It wasn't rushed, it was mismanaged.

I mean, it was made by Troika—mismanagement goes without saying. When we say rushed, we mean that the vision was there, they just needed more time to properly execute it. And yes, it’s their own damn fault for botching the management side. Splitting into two parallel teams to make two separate games after Arcanum was a huge mistake for the business. But I’m still glad we have both ToEE and Bloodlines, even if neither lives up to its full potential.

Well there was already the mistake from the very start where they agreed to use Source beta which made Bloodlines significantly harder per pound to develop, which wasn't helped by all the time they put into trying to get multiplayer to work.

Then again, has the fact Bloodlines uses Source made it easier for you to work your magic on it Wesp5 over the years? I mean, if that's the case it might mean that as fate would have it Troika actually made a good choice inside their bad choice.

 

[SCO]

Were they working on two games at the same time as Bloodlines was being developed? If it was possible, delaying the game further to after half-life and its formats was finalized and releasing a filler game in between might have given better results.

Or maybe not since the masses are tasteless. Man, if Slaanesh existed this wouldn't stand (just kidding).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Were they working on two games at the same time as Bloodlines was being developed? If it was possible, delaying the game further to after half-life and its formats was finalized and releasing a filler game in between might have given better results.

Or maybe not since the masses are tasteless. Man, if Slaanesh existed this wouldn't stand (just kidding).

Yeah they started ToEE at roughly the same time, which is why Tim did very little work on Bloodlines and Leonard did very little on Temple.

 

[Ocelot570]

The reason is why I can't get into bloodlines is because whenever you strafe with 'A' and 'D' the camera moves in a weird ass way that makes me motion sick

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

The reason is why I can't get into bloodlines is because whenever you strafe with 'A' and 'D' the camera moves in a weird ass way that makes me motion sick

Weird. I get motion sickness in games too, but it's usually some kind of refresh rate or motionblur issue for me. I guess I didn't strafe often enough in Bloodlines.

 

[Ocelot570]

The reason is why I can't get into bloodlines is because whenever you strafe with 'A' and 'D' the camera moves in a weird ass way that makes me motion sick

Weird. I get motion sickness in games too, but it's usually some kind of refresh rate or motionblur issue for me. I guess I didn't strafe often enough in Bloodlines.

It's just that the camera wouldn't stay on the same plane whenever a or d were pressed and it would make me nauseous

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

It's just that the camera wouldn't stay on the same plane whenever a or d were pressed and it would make me nauseous

It's been a while since I played, but come to think of it, it may have made me a little motion sick too.

 

[gaussgunner]

Planes, boats, rollercoasters, nothing seems to bother me... except for Portal.

 

[JBro]

I found atrblizzard's Twitter. Bugging him now.

 

[almondblight]

You have to look at LA as a whole. The Anarchs can't risk a two front war with the Camarilla and the Kuei-Jin. They already failed to stop the chinese menace back when they were at their prime. That's the only reason they let LaCroix do his thing. He's, seemingly, the only thing keeping the Kuei-Jin in check.

It's just strange when juxtaposed with Nines' comments about how he'll never stop fighting even though others have given up fighting and gone over to the Camarilla (and the others in The Last Round have a similar "We will never give up the fight!"). It seems like they've mostly surrendered; they're in LaCroix's territory, they're not opposing his rule, they go to his executions and don't do anything to stop them except jeering, etc. It would be one thing if they were underground, but it's not that, either. I don't know, maybe there's something I missed.

I think your character can't deviate from LaCroix until at least after Hollowbrooke. Nobody is going to do anything against LaCroix until you have confirmation of his dealings with the Kuei-Jin. That's what you use to convince Strauss; that's what you use to switch allegiances to Nines and have LaCroix call off the blood hunt on him.

I mean, you have the same evidence after Hollowbrook as you do after the Giovanni mansion - your word that the Kuai-Jin told you about an alliance.

You say that you should have been able to deliver the sarcophagus to some other faction. I don't disagree with that but I can see why that wouldn't be possible. Strauss is still nominally loyal to LaCroix, the Anarchs are like headless chicken unable to defend their standing and the Kuei-Jin aren't even an option.

The problem is how immensely powerful the sarcophagus could be, and how powerful many believe it to be. If it's an Antediluvian (as many believe), your talking about apocalyptic power here (check out how Strauss and LaCroix both treat the sarcophagus in their respective endings). The Anarchs might not be strong now, but if LaCroix drains an Antediluvian they're all going to be dead 5 minutes later. Likewise with Strauss - you'd think he and the Camarilla would be jolted into action by something as earth shaking as this could be. It would be one thing if this was merely a mysterious artifact, or if everyone else was an unbeliever like Beckett, but that's not the case.

It leaves me with the feeling that they thought of the "twist" at the end and were so enamored with it they just forced it in even if they couldn't think of a good way to actually make it work. That's why you still bring the key to LaCroix even when you're working against him, and you give it to him for no good reason in the Anarch and independent endings (which is insane).

 

[hello friend]

You have to look at LA as a whole. The Anarchs can't risk a two front war with the Camarilla and the Kuei-Jin. They already failed to stop the chinese menace back when they were at their prime. That's the only reason they let LaCroix do his thing. He's, seemingly, the only thing keeping the Kuei-Jin in check.

It's just strange when juxtaposed with Nines' comments about how he'll never stop fighting even though others have given up fighting and gone over to the Camarilla (and the others in The Last Round have a similar "We will never give up the fight!"). It seems like they've mostly surrendered; they're in LaCroix's territory, they're not opposing his rule, they go to his executions and don't do anything to stop them except jeering, etc. It would be one thing if they were underground, but it's not that, either. I don't know, maybe there's something I missed.

That's because the Anarchs are shitkids. Nines is the only chill dude of the bunch, he's running a kindergarden of angsty rebels. Of course he can't meaningfully oppose the Camarilla.

I got the impression while playing that the Anarchs only persisted because LaCroix's cost-benefit analysis determined a war the Camarilla would win to simply not be worth eliminating what amounts to an annoyance, especially with the Kuey-Jin angling for an exploitable weakness.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

You have to look at LA as a whole. The Anarchs can't risk a two front war with the Camarilla and the Kuei-Jin. They already failed to stop the chinese menace back when they were at their prime. That's the only reason they let LaCroix do his thing. He's, seemingly, the only thing keeping the Kuei-Jin in check.

It's just strange when juxtaposed with Nines' comments about how he'll never stop fighting even though others have given up fighting and gone over to the Camarilla (and the others in The Last Round have a similar "We will never give up the fight!"). It seems like they've mostly surrendered; they're in LaCroix's territory, they're not opposing his rule, they go to his executions and don't do anything to stop them except jeering, etc. It would be one thing if they were underground, but it's not that, either. I don't know, maybe there's something I missed.

That's because the Anarchs are shitkids. Nines is the only chill dude of the bunch, he's running a kindergarden of angsty rebels. Of course he can't meaningfully oppose the Camarilla.

I got the impression while playing that the Anarchs only persisted because LaCroix's cost-benefit analysis determined a war the Camarilla would win to simply not be worth eliminating what amounts to an annoyance, especially with the Kuey-Jin angling for an exploitable weakness.

I agree that many of the anarchs are all talk, but I always took this setup as a sign of the camarilla’s relative weakness in LA. Sure, the anarchs just jeer at the beginning, yet their jeering is enough to force LaCroix’s hand and keep you alive. At least in the beginning it feels like a kind of detente and LaCroix only goes after Nines once he gets a really, really good pretext.

 

[Wesp5]

Then again, has the fact Bloodlines uses Source made it easier for you to work your magic on it Wesp5 over the years?

Yes. I came to Bloodlines from the FPS side as I was a huge fan of HL and HL2 and only played Bloodlines because it used the Source engine. I had already made several HL mods and the difference wasn't much!

I mean, if that's the case it might mean that as fate would have it Troika actually made a good choice inside their bad choice.

At least for me they did ! If Bloodlines would have been isometric I would never have played it. BTW, it seems our work on Bloodlines eases some pain according to a recent Boyarsky interview posted here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=owwU--bKFsA (14:30 min to about 15:00 min)

 

[Wesp5]

I found atrblizzard's Twitter. Bugging him now.

Cool! I didn't know he had one. If you get some more infos out of him post them here .

 

[Wesp5]

That's why you still bring the key to LaCroix even when you're working against him, and you give it to him for no good reason in the Anarch and independent endings (which is insane).

By that time you have hints enough that you shouldn't open it...

 

[SCO]

I agree the ending 'twist' was dumb - assuming jack wasn't trying to assassinate you - your point is something i've thought before. What i think they might have been going for was a 'traditional' choice
1. open it yourself
2. just kill lacroix
3. take the key with you and destroy it
4. leave the key (moron choice)

But either ran out of time or rightly concluded it would perturb the rhythm of the ending and went for their 'twist' on all endings since it simplifies the rest of the ending cutscenes and 'hints'.

Also the key/sarcophagus was a unconvincing macguffin. The sarcophagus doesn't look like anything but a dumb stone container and bronze age people broke those all of the time, much less super strong vampires with radar imagining and shit. The dialog where Beckett says 'i need the key to open it' has me thinking 'bullshit' every time. Obviously you're supposed to paper the holes on this inconsistency with some headcanon that would feel ridiculous presented onscreen like 'magical locks', 'ancient sumerian curses' and whatnot.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

The reason is why I can't get into bloodlines is because whenever you strafe with 'A' and 'D' the camera moves in a weird ass way that makes me motion sick

Weird. I get motion sickness in games too, but it's usually some kind of refresh rate or motionblur issue for me. I guess I didn't strafe often enough in Bloodlines.

It's just that the camera wouldn't stay on the same plane whenever a or d were pressed and it would make me nauseous

It gets slightly tilted in the direction where you strafe (about 5 degrees).

In today's shooters, it's the weapon that gets displaced when you strafe (in the opposite direction of the strafe), but the camera remains stable.

In Kingdom Come, your camera blobs as you walk, and even some when you stand, which made me irritated too.

 

[Wesp5]

The dialog where Beckett says 'i need the key to open it' has me thinking 'bullshit' every time.

Isn't this rather about "How do we open it without pissing the Antediluvian off?"

 

[SCO]

Not even that works as a justification. Presumably the antediluvian is in torpor and unable to move as is the norm for some reason (this should be documented by the various successful diablerie attempts). Otherwise it would have smelled vampire blood, broke out itself and ripped off heads, or if you're assuming it's so sensitive that some violence to the container awakens it, just moving the thing could be suicide, much less opening it.

Bad logic all around.