Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Lacrymas]

I know beings of such immense power wouldn't be driving cabs around, I've been arguing that since the beginning, but people like that idea for some reason. Considering that Tzimisce (the antediluvian) is a fungus in the sewers of New York, I don't know why people would assume Caine can act like a normal person. Is he so powerful that he went past incomprehensible and went back to human-like? The driver IS Caine, though, at least Troika wanted him to be and that was the original intent, but White Wolf forbade it for obvious reasons.

The antediluvians aren't meant to be characters in that sense, they are fate or prophecy fulfilled, or inevitability, or whatever you want to call them along those lines. Their return is like in Lars von Trier's film Melancholia, where the End (capital E) is certain, what you do in the meantime is your decision.

 

[almondblight]

Nobody knows that you're worth anything more than dirt and, therefore, its only at the end that people start to actually court you. Starting with Ming.

The Tremere primogen personally invites you over at the very beginning of the game, and his riddle even includes the line "Such power I sense in one so young." The leader of the Anarchs personally saves you and then invites you to talk to him as soon as you leave the first hub, and tries to sway you over to his side. The Kuai-Jin agent comments how you were the only vampire worth a damn that he ran into. Even LaCroix, who was likely trying to get rid of you at first, starts using you as his personal agent with regards to everything involving the Ankaran Sarcaphogus. When he wants to open it, the two people he leaves it to are you and Beckett.

Like I said, being LaCroix's lackey in Santa Monica wasn't that bad to me (even though people notice how strong you are back then). But once you start talking with primogen about how terrible LaCroix is? Once the anarchs start courting you and you tell them that you agree with them? After the Giovanni mansion, you have the Ankaran sarcophagus in your possession (which you single-handedly took from the Giovanni), you've learned about LaCroix's deal with the Kuai-Jin, you have a good relationship with the leaders of several powerful anti-LaCroix vampires, and you're quite powerful in your own right? Despite all this, the game forces you to give the thing to LaCroix and to keep doing his bidding before it finally allows you to go after him.

Keep in mind that when you leave the Giovanni mansion, you don't know that the sarcophagus won't open (you haven't yet fought through a fortress of hunters to get the all important piece of information that "it needs a key"). For all you or the other factions know, you could be transporting a sleeping Antedeluvian to LaCroix, one that he'll immediately diablorize on arrival. That's something you'd think someone might care about.

Later you go on to wipe out the Sabbat on your own, wipe out the hunters on your own, and Ming comes up to you telling you how LaCroix had a deal with the Kuai-Jin (which her agents told you about before) and framed Nines (the way Nines was initially framed was stupid too, but that's a separate issue). And again, the game forces you to walk right up to LaCroix and tell him everything. The only thing that happens between the Ming encounter and when the game finally allows you to decide things for yourself are the werewolf section (your character insisting on staying in the middle of a forest fire was stupid, but again, separate issue) and LaCroix framing you for killing Nines (framing you is yet another stupid but separate issue). There's no good explanation for why you couldn't go after LaCroix after Hollowbrook - there's nothing about the werewolf section that makes LaCroix vulnerable or that suddenly would turn the other factions against him. The game just forces you to because it can't think of a better way to get you to the end point.

 

[Makabb]

Checked this thread out of curiosity and for the unoffiicial patch and latest version is from jan 15 2018, 9.9, what the

 

[Storyfag]

Might as well say why would Caine be chauffeuring you around? Does he secretly yearn for the life of a cabbie?

The Gehenna book is canon I think, and it's in large part about Caine. For the last 10 or so centuries, he dwelt in the same cave where Cappadocius sealed off thousands of his clan with a curse that wouldn't let anyone with the curse of Caine leave. Caine himself could break it and walk out, but he only projected his mind outside to talk to his old acquaintances and never went out. Then he finally emerges when Becket breaks the curse and finds him there. They travel together for a few weeks (Caine under a false identity) and Caine sees the modern world for the first time, while the antediluvians rise and take back their blood from their respective clans and the entire world is falling apart.

Considering this, the theory that the driver is Caine is very meh.

TBH, every time I read the canon story, I cannot help but think it is very meh.

 

[Delterius]

The Tremere primogen personally invites you over at the very beginning of the game, and his riddle even includes the line "Such power I sense in one so young."

That's the one actual exception, but still pretty inconclusive.

"The leader of the Anarchs personally saves you and then invites you to talk to him as soon as you leave the first hub, and tries to sway you over to his side.

Its made clear that Nines is just doing charity work. He sees himself in you, a neophyte without a real sire. He wants you to pick the right side when the time comes.

The Kuai-Jin agent comments how you were the only vampire worth a damn that he ran into.

That's because you've demonstrated some level of resourcefulness in tracking him. A thing that (most likely) happened because Bertram Tung was manipulating you into succeeding. Not exactly a world shattering power.

Even LaCroix, who was likely trying to get rid of you at first, starts using you as his personal agent with regards to everything involving the Ankaran Sarcaphogus. When he wants to open it, the two people he leaves it to are you and Beckett.

That's when things start to change.

One thing is being a particularly good agent of the Prince. Another entirely is being capable of single handedly decide the balance of power in Los Angeles. Something which only becomes clear when you purge the city of the Sabbat.

Now, the point was never that Bloodlines doesn't do a lot of railroading. It does. Story focused games tend to do that and to top it off Bloodlines is pretty much unfinished. That said, the game has a very clear character arc going on. You start off as the clueless and for all intents forced underling of the city's hegemon and you work for him until you're forced to grow wings and choose your path. You never really act against any of the city's other factions until the finale, only occasionally brushing off Ming Xiao's attempts to stab LaCroix in the back. You even help the Anarchs with their street issues in the interest of public good. Its in the werewolf park and the blood hunt that you have to choose.

Would it have been interesting to be able to switch main quest giver to Nines, Strauss or even Ming half way through the game? Maybe. But there are reasons why none of those guys are actually available. First of all because LaCroix owns you. He's constantly giving you orders and expects you to do your job. Would any of the other factions take you in? Well, Strauss doesn't have any designs of taking over the city for himself, so he's nominally loyal to LaCroix. Ming hates you and tries to kill you multiple times the second you set foot on Chinatown, she only starts manipulating you after Hollowbrook. Nines on the other hand has his hands full nursing wounds from the Kuei-Jin invasion, to the point he's willing to let LaCroix parade around as Prince of Los Angeles. He's not about to hasten a war with the Camarilla for the sake of a neonate. Sure, you could go on your own right from the start. But at one point you should just ask wether you want to play the game or not.

Railroaded? Yes. But the tracks are surrounded by mountain ranges and hilly terrain. Not a grand sandbox plateau.

 

[almondblight]

A thing that (most likely) happened because Bertram Tung was manipulating you into succeeding. Not exactly a world shattering power.

Tung doesn't manipulate you into succeeding, Tung manipulates you into taking the quest(and it's really very little manipulation). The quest itself is all you - look up name on the license, find out he's in the morgue, get his things from the morgue, find the keycard to Foxy Boxes, go into Foxy Boxes and kill the Kuai-jin. Though the fact that Tung specifically seeks you out suggests he might see something in you.

First of all because LaCroix owns you. He's constantly giving you orders and expects you to do your job. Would any of the other factions take you in? Well, Strauss doesn't have any designs of taking over the city for himself, so he's nominally loyal to LaCroix. Ming hates you and tries to kill you multiple times the second you set foot on Chinatown, she only starts manipulating you after Hollowbrook. Nines on the other hand has his hands full nursing wounds from the Kuei-Jin invasion, to the point he's willing to let LaCroix parade around as Prince of Los Angeles. He's not about to hasten a war with the Camarilla for the sake of a neonate. Sure, you could go on your own right from the start. But at one point you should just ask wether you want to play the game or not.

Like I said, that makes sense in Santa Monica. But when you have the sarcophagus? You get the ultimate trump card (or, at least what many think is the ultimate trump card) and are forced to simply give it away. If the Anarchs had it they'd have the one thing LaCroix most desires in the world. If Strauss knew you were about to deliver what well could be a sleeping Antediluvian to LaCroix, he'd flip out (see his reaction in the Strauss ending). That's not even mentioning the fact that you get it at the same time you find out about LaCroix's alliance with the Kuai-Jin, something that would enrage the other vampires (and does, eventually, when the game finally lets you tell them about it).

And Nines doesn't want war? At that point, LaCroix is actively trying to kill Nines. It seems odd that the Anarch Brujahs would respond by trying to placate him.

As an aside, it was unclear to me what the Anarch's relationships is with the Camarilla is in the game. Nines and others at The Last Round tell you they aren't ever going to give up fighting and that they opposes Camarilla rule. At the same time, they don't seem to be actively opposing it.

 

[SCO]

Niggas, if you read the Gehenna you see the Antideluvians/Caine are never meant to be described or to be interacted with. Because mistery sorrounding them is all that make them so fascinating/scary.

Well... it's not as if it's 'actual' meaningful interaction if it's only the prior to endgame scene that has Caine coming up to you to ask 'which is the least shit option?'

I don't have the cognitive space to be disappointed with this setup - and i did indeed have it for some of the Antediluvians on the published end scenarios. Lasombra went out like a bitch on most of them iirc if he hadn't already sold his soul like a chump, there was no explanation (ofc) of dangling plot hooks like the Bhaal and children of Set on the Saulot front, the Nosferatu narcissist guy was doing a godzilla murderwheel impression (which is quite comical even in context) etc.

I think disappointment only comes if it's 'you' asking the questions and getting lame responses. There were good scenarios for some Antediluvians though (Tzimisce was a bad bad boy being).

 

[Cael]

With no disrespect to WESP, but pointing to the lines he added in order to claim that an inconsistency is eliminated...

I don't think I added any lines to the story to eliminate inconsistencies. You might want to point me to these lines!

I don't know. Perhaps you'd like to ask your fanboi here as to where he saw it:

^
This is all petty stuff, though, that could’ve been fixed with a few lines of dialogue to explain that you had a badass progenitor or they’re transfusing you with the blood of Cain or a dozen other things. The game was rushed, sure. But if your objections could be fixed by Wesp adding a little dialogue or even a letter that explains your rapid rise in power in his next patch, it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Could be, next patch--as in, theoretically. My point was that your problems with the game are minor. The story inconsistencies are part of a general lack of polish that you'd expect from a rushed game. None of it's glaring until the very end, and how many RPGs even have good endings?

 

[Nano]

Bloodlines was in development for, like, 3 years. It wasn't rushed, it was mismanaged.

 

[Cael]

Bloodlines was in development for, like, 3 years. It wasn't rushed, it was mismanaged.

The fanbois would grasp at any straws to excuse the failure of a product. They are, plainly, delusional.

 

[Delterius]

As an aside, it was unclear to me what the Anarch's relationships is with the Camarilla is in the game. Nines and others at The Last Round tell you they aren't ever going to give up fighting and that they opposes Camarilla rule. At the same time, they don't seem to be actively opposing it.

You have to look at LA as a whole. The Anarchs can't risk a two front war with the Camarilla and the Kuei-Jin. They already failed to stop the chinese menace back when they were at their prime. That's the only reason they let LaCroix do his thing. He's, seemingly, the only thing keeping the Kuei-Jin in check.

I think your character can't deviate from LaCroix until at least after Hollowbrooke. Nobody is going to do anything against LaCroix until you have confirmation of his dealings with the Kuei-Jin. That's what you use to convince Strauss; that's what you use to switch allegiances to Nines and have LaCroix call off the blood hunt on him. You say that you should have been able to deliver the sarcophagus to some other faction. I don't disagree with that but I can see why that wouldn't be possible. Strauss is still nominally loyal to LaCroix, the Anarchs are like headless chicken unable to defend their standing and the Kuei-Jin aren't even an option. However, I do think that the option of going to either the Last Round or Strauss after Hollowbrooke could have been included with a relatively small amount of work.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Bloodlines was in development for, like, 3 years. It wasn't rushed, it was mismanaged.

I mean, it was made by Troika—mismanagement goes without saying. When we say rushed, we mean that the vision was there, they just needed more time to properly execute it. And yes, it’s their own damn fault for botching the management side. Splitting into two parallel teams to make two separate games after Arcanum was a huge mistake for the business. But I’m still glad we have both ToEE and Bloodlines, even if neither lives up to its full potential.

 

[Wesp5]

With no disrespect to WESP, but pointing to the lines he added in order to claim that an inconsistency is eliminated...

I don't think I added any lines to the story to eliminate inconsistencies. You might want to point me to these lines!

I don't know. Perhaps you'd like to ask your fanboi here as to where he saw it:

^
This is all petty stuff, though, that could’ve been fixed with a few lines of dialogue to explain that you had a badass progenitor or they’re transfusing you with the blood of Cain or a dozen other things. The game was rushed, sure. But if your objections could be fixed by Wesp adding a little dialogue or even a letter that explains your rapid rise in power in his next patch, it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

He didn't saw it, he wished for me to do it which I won't ! Still there is the Bloodlines Prelude mod in the works and once there are some reasonable explanations here, they might be included.

 

[Wesp5]

However, I do think that the option of going to either the Last Round or Strauss after Hollowbrooke could have been included with a relatively small amount of work.

In that case I bet that Strauss would have needed some kind of proof for your story, like the sarcophagus in LaCroix's tower and he intend on opening it. Which would have changed nothing! And if you wanted to bring the sarcophagus to the Anarchs, I bet that Jack would have told you not to do it which again would have given the same result only the surprise spoiled. Also don't forget that the Anarchs were quite weak at the time, why else would they have been at the theatre in the intro in the first place?

 

[Wesp5]

Caine himself could break it and walk out, but he only projected his mind outside to talk to his old acquaintances and never went out.

So he could easily have projected his mind and possessed e.g. a cab driver.

Then he finally emerges when Becket breaks the curse and finds him there. They travel together for a few weeks (Caine under a false identity)...

Caine behaved absolutely normal then, so why shouldn't he do as a cabbie?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Caine behaved absolutely normal then, so why shouldn't he do as a cabbie?

As lore would have it, he had no interest in intervening into anyone's lives. Has was a hermit for a reason.

 

[JBro]

Vaulderie is still alive? They were pretty conclusively shut down in 2014 because the 'project leader' modeler decided to 'ask for permission' which he didn't need and got threated with legal letters without content.

As far as I know Vaulderie is dead and I don't think Atrblizzard asked CCP for permission, but he added a donate button to the website which some CCP laywers were made aware off and as this was about getting money from their IP they send the C&D letter.

Funniest part is that they'll probably have the same trouble as the modders because the engine is not source-standard and i rather doubt Valve will play ball helping them.

The first version of the Bloodlines remake was done on the Alien Swarm Source engine, but in my opinion there wouldn't have been a lot of improvement anyway. I play a lot of concurrent HL2 mods and there isn't much difference between old and new Source engine versions! Then Atrblizzard looked both at Unreal 4 and Unity 5 and started with the latter until CCP shut him down...

Tell him to get his ass in gear and finish it.

Don't ignore me, bitch. Tell him to finish it or release it to someone who will, and isn't stupid enough to ask for permission for something multiple groups have done for other games.

 

[Wesp5]

Don't ignore me, bitch. Tell him to finish it or release it to someone who will, and isn't stupid enough to ask for permission for something multiple groups have done for other games.

Tell him yourself, he goes under the name of Atrblizzard on Planet Vampire and probably elsewhere.

 

[Raghar]

As an aside, it was unclear to me what the Anarch's relationships is with the Camarilla is in the game. Nines and others at The Last Round tell you they aren't ever going to give up fighting and that they opposes Camarilla rule. At the same time, they don't seem to be actively opposing it.

You have to look at LA as a whole. The Anarchs can't risk a two front war with the Camarilla and the Kuei-Jin. They already failed to stop the chinese menace back when they were at their prime. That's the only reason they let LaCroix do his thing. He's, seemingly, the only thing keeping the Kuei-Jin in check.

I think your character can't deviate from LaCroix until at least after Hollowbrooke. Nobody is going to do anything against LaCroix until you have confirmation of his dealings with the Kuei-Jin. That's what you use to convince Strauss; that's what you use to switch allegiances to Nines and have LaCroix call off the blood hunt on him. You say that you should have been able to deliver the sarcophagus to some other faction. I don't disagree with that but I can see why that wouldn't be possible. Strauss is still nominally loyal to LaCroix, the Anarchs are like headless chicken unable to defend their standing and the Kuei-Jin aren't even an option. However, I do think that the option of going to either the Last Round or Strauss after Hollowbrooke could have been included with a relatively small amount of work.

What? Isn't Tremere true ending like this?

Spoiler

Straus appearing sitting behind LaCroix and saying La Croix what are you doing, shouldn't be a prince loyal to Camarila? Sacrophagus then met an obvious end.

 

[JBro]

Don't ignore me, bitch. Tell him to finish it or release it to someone who will, and isn't stupid enough to ask for permission for something multiple groups have done for other games.

Tell him yourself, he goes under the name of Atrblizzard on Planet Vampire and probably elsewhere.

Tell him for me.

 

[Delterius]

What? Isn't Tremere true ending like this?

Spoiler

Straus appearing sitting behind LaCroix and saying La Croix what are you doing, shouldn't be a prince loyal to Camarila? Sacrophagus then met an obvious end.

However, I do think that the option of going to either the Last Round or Strauss after Hollowbrooke could have been included with a relatively small amount of work.

In that case I bet that Strauss would have needed some kind of proof for your story, like the sarcophagus in LaCroix's tower and he intend on opening it. Which would have changed nothing! And if you wanted to bring the sarcophagus to the Anarchs, I bet that Jack would have told you not to do it which again would have given the same result only the surprise spoiled. Also don't forget that the Anarchs were quite weak at the time, why else would they have been at the theatre in the intro in the first place?

The finale of Bloodlines goes like this:

You destroy the city's Sabbat and becomes officially a Big Deal >> Ming confesses to framing Nines and claims to be in cahoots with LaCroix >> LaCroix says those are lies from an eastern infiltrator trying to drive wedges between kindred, calls off the blood hunt on Nines and asks you to negotiate an alliance against the Kuei-Jin >> the werewolf park attempt happens >> you're forced to choose a faction at last in a dialogue with the DM.

What I'm saying is that step three could have you go straight to the Anarchs or Strauss and it wouldn't change things that much. Strauss could work behind LaCroix and ally with the anarchs. The werewolf attempt could still happen regardless of who sent you to Nines, or if you went there yourself. Jack would still blame LaCroix, although true patricians know it was Ming all along. Cabbie conversation happens, you definitely choose a side and kill everyone else.

 

[Sykar]

There is only one way for the incredible power growth to make sense within the context of the rules and setting, I've already talked about this -

Now that you reminded me of Dracula, I have an idea how the PC could become so powerful. Dracula had relatively fast power gain because he was living as an independent ghoul, feeding off of a vampire he had chained in his castle, but he was also immune to the Blood Bond (curiously enough), then forced a Tzimisce vampire to Embrace him. This leads me to this - what if the PC was a centuries/millennia old ghoul (like Prias), but had his/her memories periodically wiped, so s/he wasn't even aware s/he was a ghoul, but still received the benefits of being so. Then maybe his/her master died/got bored and just commanded him/her to live a normal life (and wiped his/her memories again), s/he would turn to dust very fast anyway, but a relatively new vampire (the PCs sire) Embraced him/her. That would explain the very rapid power gain, the sire being a weakling AND the PCs total ignorance of the creatures of the night. I think this is actually legal in the PnP and can be done.

Caine manipulating your blood won't work because you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, and your sire being a low gen vampire won't work because they'll never allow themselves to be executed by a clown like LaCroix.

The power growth was simple gameplay. It had nothing to do with the story at all and it is probably for that reason that we do not get a real time line during the game. Also you are not that high in terms of generation. Considering that iirc you have a blood pool of 15 and can only raise disciplines up to 5 you should be of 8th generation which makes your sire a 7th generation. 7th generation is not that powerful to begin with and compared to the several thousand years methuselas not even mentioning Caine he is a gnat. Sure for the average 13th generation barely above thin blood run of the mill schlock a 7th generation vampire might seem very powerful, but in the grand scheme of World of Darkness things its not really something to brag too much about.

 

[Storyfag]

The power growth was simple gameplay. It had nothing to do with the story at all

Damn sneaky Andrei, all that Auspex mastery must have alerted him to such 4th wall breaking things like noticing gameplay. That's why he commented on the power growth, rite? Or maybe it just was planned gor the story? hmmm

Also you are not that high in terms of generation. Considering that iirc you have a blood pool of 15 and can only raise disciplines up to 5 you should be of 8th generation which makes your sire a 7th generation. 7th generation is not that powerful to begin with and compared to the several thousand years methuselas not even mentioning Caine he is a gnat. Sure for the average 13th generation barely above thin blood run of the mill schlock a 7th generation vampire might seem very powerful, but in the grand scheme of World of Darkness things its not really something to brag too much about.

The Princes of most of the New World cities are 7th gen. LaCroix probably is somewhere around there, Beckett definitely is 7th gen. It's very likely every other Vampire you meet is higher than that. Jack is 10th. In the grand scheme of the World of Darkness, you *really* rarely meet extremely low gen Cainites in the Final Nights. They act behind the scenes.

 

[Sykar]

The power growth was simple gameplay. It had nothing to do with the story at all

Damn sneaky Andrei, all that Auspex mastery must have alerted him to such 4th wall breaking things like noticing gameplay. That's why he commented on the power growth, rite? Or maybe it just was planned gor the story? hmmm

Also you are not that high in terms of generation. Considering that iirc you have a blood pool of 15 and can only raise disciplines up to 5 you should be of 8th generation which makes your sire a 7th generation. 7th generation is not that powerful to begin with and compared to the several thousand years methuselas not even mentioning Caine he is a gnat. Sure for the average 13th generation barely above thin blood run of the mill schlock a 7th generation vampire might seem very powerful, but in the grand scheme of World of Darkness things its not really something to brag too much about.

The Princes of most of the New World cities are 7th gen. LaCroix probably is somewhere around there, Beckett definitely is 7th gen. It's very likely every other Vampire you meet is higher than that. Jack is 10th. In the grand scheme of the World of Darkness, you *really* rarely meet extremely low gen Cainites in the Final Nights. They act behind the scenes.

Andrei's comment is just a generic line which you can hear in some version or another in dozens of rpgs. It means ultimately nothing.
You can twist it like you want but you are a 8th generation vampire. That gives you some potential over others but nothing to write home about compared to the actual power players.