Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Zombra]

Ok. Prove to me that it wasn't magical pixies from the werewolf forest and then we'll talk about assumptions and guesses.

I'm not trying to prove anything about what the game's story "really is". I think it would be stupid to try. All I wanted to prove was that your point about low generation blood being impossible doesn't hold water ... and it doesn't, so I did. If it's really that fanatically important to you to prove the game's story makes no sense, be my guest ... but look elsewhere for your evidence, because that point has been invalidated.

 

[Lacrymas]

Nobody has said anything about low gen blood being impossible. Nobody. We are discussing how exactly it is possible to have such a high blood pool while making sense within the internal logic of the setting. It being a fictional story and setting doesn't mean it shouldn't be rational or logical within the rules it sets up for itself.

 

[Zombra]

Nobody has said anything about low gen blood being impossible.

Your sire being a low gen vampire won't work because they'll never allow themselves to be executed by a clown like LaCroix.

"Your sire can't be low gen because LaCroix put on a circus about executing somebody and he told me it was my sire and I'm sure that was true because no one could ever fool him and I'm sure he's always honest." How many things wrong with this can you count? I see at least three.

 

[Lacrymas]

I meant you having low gen blood is not impossible, not your sire. LaCroix didn't tell us anything, we saw who Embraced us and we saw who was executed. There is no vagueness or manipulation going on here, it was straight-up shown to us. "But the guy/gal who was executed could've been a decoy" is nothing but head-canon with no evidence.

 

[Sizzle]

LaCroix didn't tell us anything, we saw who Embraced us and we saw who was executed.

We actually don't. We see a vampire luring the PC into bed, and hear the PC screaming - off camera. Considering the powers vampires have, it's quite possible some sort of switcheroo was conducted as early as that.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sure, but do we have a reason to believe that a switcheroo has been made or the person in the bed wasn't your sire? How would the low gen vampire know that LaCroix's men will burst in at that exact moment? They may be powerful, but they aren't omniscient. Why wouldn't they just start the game with the execution scene instead of showing the Embrace if they wanted to obfuscate who your sire truly is?

 

[Delterius]

Occam's razor, people. The most likely explanation requires the least conjecture.

From the top of my head, discussions about this topic fall under these few points:

Something must have happened.

The player character growing more and more powerful over time is a genre trope. To do so in a way that defies logic, even in-universe logic, is as well. Troika could have left things well enough alone, Bloodlines would be just some silly Monty Haul campaign that befits the dumb Action game it really is. However, they understood the limitations of Vampire and had all characters come around to your insane power level.

The cabby was supposed to be Caine. And he pretty much still is.

Even if White Wolf forbade it, they didn't do a very good job at creative control. Its not just game files that prove it. Malkavian PC's dialogue with the cabby pretty much confirm that this is the case even in the final build of the game.

Supposedly the official WoD continuity asserts that the cabbie is actually a delusional Malkavian. I've found some references to that effect here and there. Wether this is canon or just ripples caused by an unreferenced factoid in the White Wolf wiki.

You're not always super powerful according to the plot.

The greatest plot issue of bloodlines is this: LaCroix can easily dominate you during the Downtown arc, he won't do so during the Holywood arc and he can't do so in the finale. This would imply you've gained a few generations sometime before your first Grand Accomplishment, meaning defeating Andrei. The reason why this is a plothole is that your bloodpool reflects a vampire of 8th generation from the get-go.

There are only a handful of characters in Bloodlines that could have sired someone of 8th generation.

Tim Caine aside, the only certainty would be Beckett. And he's clearly not it.

Your sire is probably the executed person.

Again, Tim Caine aside the initial scene has a customizeable sire to a customizeable protagonist. Meaning someone from the same bloodline, and someone from the opposite sex. That, I think, is a point towards the most simple explanation.

All in all, what I think happened is thus. Early on during development someone decided that an above average blood pool would best serve a single player Action RPG. The writers then incorporated that idea into a bigger mystery involving Cain using the battleground of Los Angeles to experiment with 21st century vampiric society. In midst of all of this, some neophyte exceeds expectations and proves himself to be both uniquely clueless about everything but also rather resourceful (Santa Monic arc). Then Caine uses DM fiat to make the protagonist more powerful. In between Activision and White Wolf creative control, Troika finishes the game as best they are able but a few plot points are missed here and there. The end.

 

[Zombra]

There is no vagueness or manipulation going on here, it was straight-up shown to us.

lol. "I saw two things and jumped to conclusions, therefore those conclusions must be true."

"But the guy/gal who was executed could've been a decoy" is nothing but head-canon with no evidence.

"The guy/gal who was executed could not have been a decoy" is also nothing but head-canon; therefore you shouldn't use it as a factual basis for your arguments.

Sure, but do we have a reason to believe that a switcheroo has been made or the person in the bed wasn't your sire?

What is this whole conversation about? The PC's apparent low gen blood. The switcheroo inerpretation makes everything consistent. Your not liking it doesn't prove it wrong.

It being a fictional story and setting doesn't mean it shouldn't be rational or logical within the rules it sets up for itself.

And any argument you make to show it isn't should be more substantial than cotton candy in a rainstorm.

Be intellectually honest here, man. Only a dogmatist clings to a failed argument. There are plenty of other ways to trash Bloodlines' story.

 

[Sizzle]

Also, this being a game (aka - an adaptation) shouldn't make the "But it's canon! White Wolf said so themselves!" argument automatically true.

Going by that messy logic, the entire struggle of the Bhaalspawn in the Baldur's Gate saga was rendered moot, just because WoTC decided they wanted Bhaal to be revived again.

 

[Zero Credibility]

This again.

You know, maybe the guy/gal in the intro is you sire. Say, if they engaged in a round or two of drain-the-elder before this, that could get their generation low enough while being relatively young. Could explain why nobody stands up for him/her, maybe they were Sabbat defector or something.

 

[Lacrymas]

Zombra, again, there is no reason to believe what they've shown us isn't true. You are tangling yourself in your own web and your arguments are so insane I don't even know where to begin. It's like arguing with a creationist.

I didn't argue that the cabbie isn't Caine, we know it's supposed to be him, I argued that I see no reason for him to so directly involve himself in this struggle and in such a way. I don't like the "he was trying to figure out the future of vampiredom" explanation because he shouldn't have been involved if he wanted to see where this will lead, otherwise he is the one pulling all the strings and it's like playing dollhouse - you know what will happen, making the exercise pointless and gaining no new desired information in the process. Delterius is right, however, in that probably the initial in-house premise was that Caine was involved and he was the one fiddling with your powers. This mess happened because White Wolf and maybe the mystery they set up is more interesting than the explanation (planned or otherwise).

 

[Zombra]

Zombra, again, there is no reason to believe what they've shown us isn't true.

If you're using what you saw as a premise to prove story inconsistency, it should be factually connected, not speculative. You're speculating that the dood in the hotel room and the dood on the stage are one and the same. You saw two people who looked the same and assumed they were the same. In a game which uses personal illusions as a major plot point!

You are tangling yourself in your own web and your arguments are so insane I don't even know where to begin.

Um, what "web"? "Your argument is based on a guess so it sucks." That's my "web". So convoluted!

I didn't argue that the cabbie isn't Caine

Uhh ... you talking to me?

 

[Lacrymas]

If we go by that insane logic, what's to say the sarcophagus is real? Because you saw it? How do you know any character is who they say they are when personal illusions exist? This rabbit hole can go very deep, I assure you, and it's never productive. The cabbie thing isn't for you.

 

[Wesp5]

How about this? The sire is low generation, but was blood bound, dominated or whatever by Caine to let himself be killed because he needed a powerful pawn to pull off his testing of his vampiric children. There would still be issues in that case, like would LaCroix know how low generation the Sire was and not wondering why he submits himself so easily? Could anyone find out that the Sire is being dominated or similar?

 

[Zombra]

If we go by that insane logic, what's to say the sarcophagus is real?

If I make an argument predicated on the assumption of the sarcophagus' legitimacy that you wish to discredit, I'm happy to hear your counterargument. This isn't a double-edged sword, at all, bro.

How do you know any character is who they say they are when personal illusions exist?

You don't, and that uncertainty is a fundamental part of the setting you're trying to tear apart. Starting your argument with "Assuming there are no illusions in this world, then ..." is not going to go well.

This rabbit hole can go very deep, and it's never productive.

lol. "Productive"? You're trying to pick apart the story of a decade-old video game. If that's important to you, fine ... but if you want to do it in a "productive" way, use arguments that can't be destroyed with 2 seconds of creative thought.

 

[Lacrymas]

You aren't destroying anything, you are arguing things that can't be argued and asking for someone to prove a negative. You are also saying that nothing can be proven because illusions. Why are you in this debate if you think that's the case and you are absolutely certain of that? Leave the rest of us unenlightened and grasping at straws rabble to deal with it.

How about this? The sire is low generation, but was blood bound, dominated or whatever by Caine to let himself be killed because he needed a powerful pawn to pull off his testing of his vampiric children. There would still be issues in that case, like would LaCroix know how low generation the Sire was and not wondering why he submits himself so easily? Could anyone find out that the Sire is being dominated or similar?

The biggest problem with that is that it wouldn't be a test, at least not a test of the status quo and the ones in power. By injecting someone he knows will defeat all the factions at the same time, what knowledge is he gaining? If the argument is that he's testing their philosophies and worldviews on someone who can't be beaten/dominated into submission into one of them, then maybe and that will be interesting. Much more interesting than shooting Asian monks in corridors and Sabbath refuse in dilapidated apartments. You aren't given the opportunity to work for the Sabbath, though, so maybe Caine isn't covering all available thoughts.

 

[Wesp5]

If the argument is that he's testing their philosophies and worldviews on someone who can't be beaten/dominated into submission into one of them, then maybe and that will be interesting.

That. Also he is testing how someone as powerful as the player, but starting off without knowledge, will react to the temptation of his curse...

 

[Zombra]

You are arguing things that can't be argued and asking for someone to prove a negative.

If my argument is unassailable, maybe - just maybe - you should take that as a cue to reexamine yours. Again, only the intellectually dishonest cling so fiercely to an argument with such a weak premise.

Why are you in this debate

I saw a pronouncement based on a dumb assumption and I called you out on it. Then I taunted you - while remaining intellectually honest, mind - into clenching your jaw harder and harder when you should have relaxed, and got a good laugh out of it. That's it.

 

[Sizzle]

By injecting someone he knows will defeat all the factions at the same time what knowledge is he gaining?

What someone with such power, who's uncustomed to vampire society - would choose.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I think it tells it all that people are talking about the story of a 13 years old game. How many times has it been since we've had a game that still makes people raise questions years after the initial release?

 

[Lacrymas]

Zombra, wow, I have no response to that. It's cute that you think you actually put forth an intelligent and well-thought-out argument that can't be beaten instead of metaphorically talking about the teapot around Mars. Whatever, think what you will, this talk is pointless, it's turtles all the way down.

What someone with such power, who's uncustomed to vampire society - would choose.

Yeah, that seems reasonable, like I said in the previous post. It's even interesting if it went somewhere. You should've been given the opportunity to work with the Sabbath, too, though, they were right about Gehenna and the antediluvians in the end. It's funny to think that the Sabbath, of all the factions, were right, at least in this.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Might as well say why would Caine be chauffeuring you around? Does he secretly yearn for the life of a cabbie?

The Gehenna book is canon I think, and it's in large part about Caine. For the last 10 or so centuries, he dwelt in the same cave where Cappadocius sealed off thousands of his clan with a curse that wouldn't let anyone with the curse of Caine leave. Caine himself could break it and walk out, but he only projected his mind outside to talk to his old acquaintances and never went out. Then he finally emerges when Becket breaks the curse and finds him there. They travel together for a few weeks (Caine under a false identity) and Caine sees the modern world for the first time, while the antediluvians rise and take back their blood from their respective clans and the entire world is falling apart.

Considering this, the theory that the driver is Caine is very meh. And the antideluvians are so far gone, so far removed from humanity, that they wouldn't drive a cab around and pretend anything. E.g. when Lasombra awoke, he flew around the globe in form of a giant shadow cloud that made entire cities panic. When he wanted to know something from someone, he'd penetrate the victim through all cavities, enter him entirely and swallow the soul into the abyss, and he'd automatically know everything that person knew. He never once assumed the physical form in the entire book. Driving a cab is just not what antediluvians do.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ga♥]

Niggas, if you read the Gehenna you see the Antideluvians/Caine are never meant to be described or to be interacted with. Because mistery sorrounding them is all that make them so fascinating/scary.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

The way the antideluvians were described, it didn't remove any mystery from them. The sheer terror their return meant was described very neatly, as well as the alienness of their mind. An entire clan committed suicide for fear of meeting them. It actually proves that they can be described and interacted with, plot-wise, considering that the book worked very well.

 

[ga♥]

I know you are a special kind of guy, Bester.

LARPING as a game developer for years on an interner forum, already pointed it out.

For the other benefit:

From "Portraying Antedeluvians and Methuselahs", page 38

[...] we're just encouraging you to keep the camera "off" the Ancients. Confronting them directly would shatter the mind of a lesser creature, so don't "show" them as much as you intimate their hideous (or nigh-divine) presences.

It's a storytelling advice and obviously it applies to the cab driver in Bloodlines as well.