Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[almondblight]

This has been discussed several times before.

During the course of the game, several characters remark that your power progress is astounding, and that something is off about that.

Right, that's the point. You're not simply a lowly peon that has no choice but to follow the Prince, as others have claimed. That might be the case in Santa Monica, but at least by the mid-section of the game you're an incredibly powerful vampire that has good relations with many powerful enemies of LaCroix (including the Tremere primogen and Anarch leadership...you also seem to be on decent terms with the Nosferatu primogen, who doesn't care much for LaCroix). And yet the game not only forces you to do whatever LaCroix says up until the end, it also forces you to reveal your hand to him. For example, Ming tells you that LaCroix had Grout killed because Grout found out the truth, so the game then forces you to...walk right up to LaCroix and announce to him that you also know the truth (and then keep following his orders after that).

 

[SCO]

Video games are nearly all ego masturbatory experiences like this. Feel privileged that at least Bloodlines implies this is not normal instead of your 'right', reincarnation mojo or good avatar genes.

Fucking Elder Scrolls.

edit: regarding your last post, i agree the game should have given more solutions to ally with factions in the endgame. Clanquest ventrue quest actually tries to give a barebones 'sabbat' ally during the endgame tower, but the engine is really clunky about companions, so a narrative resolution of the situation wouldn't go amiss either.

But Bloodlines was rushed, so what can you do.

 

[Serious_Business]

Yeah, you're merely a lowly peon that has no choice but to do what the prince says. Up until the point where you kill the prince (and the 100 vampires guarding him plus his uberbodygaurd) as well as the Kuejin leader (something no other vampire in the game has been able to do). After taking out an entire group of Sabbat and an entire group of Hunters on your own.

This has been discussed several times before.

During the course of the game, several characters remark that your power progress is astounding, and that something is off about that. It's heavily implied that someone (probably Caine) is manipulating your blood, causing you to be a lower generation near the end, and that's why you can resist LaCroix's domination.

It's fucking video game logic. They're bending the rules for the narration. It might be the weakest part of it, so I wouldn't take too much time analyzing. And even then, there's always a delicate balance between narration and systems in rpgs (I mostly mean tabletop ones). You don't want to be anal about numbers and power levels, but you have to somewhat respect the rules of the world. In the case of Bloodlines it just degenerates into the chosen one trope, which is again a video game thing. In a video game you are the main character and you're always more or less the center of the world, the catalyst for change. Bioware narrative always exploits this. Crpgs in general have big problems stepping away from it, even a well-written game like Bloodlines. The thing is, to represent power adequately in Masquerade (and in reality for that matter), it has to be a matter of relationships, of politics. Crpgs are focused on the individual and their stats, their individual "power" ; it degenerates into super-hero logic, as if power was simply the intrinsic characteristic of the individual. Of course the world has enough myth to support that - and the idea of demigods, essentially - but it's still poor storytelling.

 

[Sizzle]

This has been discussed several times before.

During the course of the game, several characters remark that your power progress is astounding, and that something is off about that.

Right, that's the point. You're not simply a lowly peon that has no choice but to follow the Prince, as others have claimed. That might be the case in Santa Monica, but at least by the mid-section of the game you're an incredibly powerful vampire that has good relations with many powerful enemies of LaCroix (including the Tremere primogen and Anarch leadership...you also seem to be on decent terms with the Nosferatu primogen, who doesn't care much for LaCroix). And yet the game not only forces you to do whatever LaCroix says up until the end, it also forces you to reveal your hand to him. For example, Ming tells you that LaCroix had Grout killed because Grout found out the truth, so the game then forces you to...walk right up to LaCroix and announce to him that you also know the truth (and then keep following his orders after that).

Yes, but the Anarch/Camarilla/Kuei-jin have an uneasy status quo truce, which all of them are unsure about breaking. All of the factions are using you, and only near the end do they seek out your help, instead of bullying/bribing you into aiding them like they did for most of the game.

As for you having to tell LaCroix everything - the game takes place over, what, a week (maybe more, maybe less)? During that time, you've come from a literal Fledgling nobody, to one of the most powerful vampires in the city. It's entirely possible the PC didn't even know/couldn't fathom that disobeying/taking on LaCroix was an option at that point.

You do have the option to tell the other factions what you've uncovered during those missions, but all they do is encourage you to keep on working for him, in order to have someone on the inside. Which is consistent with every vampire in the game - they are all trying to manipulate you into doing their dirty work. Some, like LaCroix, do it with threats and coercion, others, like Velvet, do it with flattery and sex appeal, but all of them want to exploit you. It's only when the shit hits the can at the very end, and there is no other choice but to get their hands dirty, do they directly involve themselves.

 

[Iznaliu]

Why noone made a "spiritual successor" in the kickstarter crazyness

VTMB simply didn't have the commercial success and enduring popularity of the BG series or the critical acclaim and legendary status of PS:T. Additionally, the image of vampires are tarnished by Twilight and its ilk; people wouldn't take it that seriously.

 

[Lacrymas]

There is only one way for the incredible power growth to make sense within the context of the rules and setting, I've already talked about this -

Now that you reminded me of Dracula, I have an idea how the PC could become so powerful. Dracula had relatively fast power gain because he was living as an independent ghoul, feeding off of a vampire he had chained in his castle, but he was also immune to the Blood Bond (curiously enough), then forced a Tzimisce vampire to Embrace him. This leads me to this - what if the PC was a centuries/millennia old ghoul (like Prias), but had his/her memories periodically wiped, so s/he wasn't even aware s/he was a ghoul, but still received the benefits of being so. Then maybe his/her master died/got bored and just commanded him/her to live a normal life (and wiped his/her memories again), s/he would turn to dust very fast anyway, but a relatively new vampire (the PCs sire) Embraced him/her. That would explain the very rapid power gain, the sire being a weakling AND the PCs total ignorance of the creatures of the night. I think this is actually legal in the PnP and can be done.

Caine manipulating your blood won't work because you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, and your sire being a low gen vampire won't work because they'll never allow themselves to be executed by a clown like LaCroix.

 

[Zombra]

Caine manipulating your blood won't work because you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, and your sire being a low gen vampire won't work because they'll never allow themselves to be executed by a clown like LaCroix.

Who says the jerk who got executed was your sire?

 

[Lacrymas]

We have no reason to assume it wasn't and it will only be head-canon with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[WhiteGuts]

There's slightly more evidence pointing towards the blood manipulation theory than any other stated or unstated possibility in the game. The cryptic emails the PC receives are a clear sign of some machination happening behind the scenes. Additionally, why would they go out of their way to make a character as "special" as the cab driver if he didn't carry any meaning ?

 

[Lacrymas]

He was supposed to be Caine, but White Wolf forbade it, that's why he's special. And again, you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, why would Caine change your generation from the very beginning, the moment you are Embraced, and why you? Caine can will anything to happen, such frankly strange manipulations seem hardly appropriate for his power level. He doesn't have anything to gain by doing precisely this.

 

[Cael]

The fact that it took a fanatic zealot of a modder with his own head canon and inserted all sorts of his own stuff into the game to make it "make sense" is more than enough proof that the game was badly written with little internal logical consistency, let alone consistency with the greater mythology of the setting it was in.

With no disrespect to WESP, but pointing to the lines he added in order to claim that an inconsistency is eliminated is like pointing to the a greenie and claiming globull warming is true because the greenie said so.

 

[WhiteGuts]

He was supposed to be Caine, but White Wolf forbade it, that's why he's special. And again, you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, why would Caine change your generation from the very beginning, the moment you are Embraced, and why you? Caine can will anything to happen, such frankly strange manipulations seem hardly appropriate for his power level. He doesn't have anything to gain by doing precisely this.

It was a rhetoric question. He was supposed to be Caine, or he can be just a very old and very strong vampire, all the same : his appearance seems to have triggered all the events that unfold during the game, with the participation of Jack. As for the reason, does it matter ? It could simply be that he did it for the lulz, or to see how weak the different bloodlines have become...etc. It's irrelevant, to be honest. Just as the sarcophagus that serves as a McGuffin, the real motivations behind the chessmaster's moves are not that important.

 

[Wesp5]

With no disrespect to WESP, but pointing to the lines he added in order to claim that an inconsistency is eliminated...

I don't think I added any lines to the story to eliminate inconsistencies. You might want to point me to these lines!

 

[Delterius]

You: "Hey, I'm working for LaCroix right now, doing whatever he says."
Other factions: "No! LaCroix is evil and he has to be stopped. We can't let him get what he wants!"
You: "Hmm, good point. Maybe I shouldn't help him."
Other factions: "LOL, just kidding. Nah you better keep working hard to make sure LaCroix gets whatever he wants."

**After you spend the rest of the game getting almost everything LaCroix wants for him**

Other factions: "OMG now that LaCroix has gotten most of what he wanted you have to go and stop him ASAP!"

The railroading isn't nearly this bad, though.

LaCroix pretty much owns you as a surrogate sire and as a neophyte you're pretty much at the bottom of the food chain. So most everyone assumes you'll be his lapdog. Jack is the only one who thinks otherwise, and he thinks you are supposed to just do anything to survive. Case in point you can be just dominated ad nauseaum if necessary, which is a thing with the Ventrue princes. Nobody knows that you're worth anything more than dirt and, therefore, its only at the end that people start to actually court you. Starting with Ming.

He was supposed to be Caine, but White Wolf forbade it, that's why he's special. And again, you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, why would Caine change your generation from the very beginning, the moment you are Embraced, and why you? Caine can will anything to happen, such frankly strange manipulations seem hardly appropriate for his power level. He doesn't have anything to gain by doing precisely this.

It was a rhetoric question. He was supposed to be Caine, or he can be just a very old and very strong vampire, all the same : his appearance seems to have triggered all the events that unfold during the game, with the participation of Jack. As for the reason, does it matter ? It could simply be that he did it for the lulz, or to see how weak the different bloodlines have become...etc. It's irrelevant, to be honest. Just as the sarcophagus that serves as a McGuffin, the real motivations behind the chessmaster's moves are not that important.

I think the reason why he did it is crystal clear in the ending dialogue. He counsels you to join a faction and to close all loose threads. When you give him the answer, he reacts with a follow up question. "Are you sure you want to go alone?"; "Is the Camarilla salvageable?"; "Are the Anarchs sustainable?"; "Can the Kuei-Jin be trusted?"; etc. Whoever Tim Cain is, he's using you, the rumour of the sarcophagous and Los Angeles as an experiment to gauge the future of vampiredom.

 

[Storyfag]

There is only one way for the incredible power growth to make sense within the context of the rules and setting, I've already talked about this

Nice theory, but it leaves out the part where Dracula's Sire was low generation himself, and that right after being Embraced, old Vlad diablerised an even lower generation Tzimisce (likely one of the direct childer or grandchilder of the Tzimisce Antideluvian).

 

[hello friend]

He was supposed to be Caine, but White Wolf forbade it, that's why he's special. And again, you start with an unnaturally high blood pool, why would Caine change your generation from the very beginning, the moment you are Embraced, and why you? Caine can will anything to happen, such frankly strange manipulations seem hardly appropriate for his power level. He doesn't have anything to gain by doing precisely this.

Might as well say why would Caine be chauffeuring you around? Does he secretly yearn for the life of a cabbie?

Gotta say, Delterius's theory makes a lot of sense.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Might as well say why would Caine be chauffeuring you around?

I guess the Player Vampire's a good tipper.

 

[JBro]

Caine wants your fledgling vampire bussy.

 

[Zombra]

We have no reason to assume it wasn't and it will only be head-canon with no evidence whatsoever.

If you're obsessed with showing that a video game doesn't make sense, the burden of proof is on you. A game about fucking vampires isn't responsible for explaining every little thing to you.

 

[Lacrymas]

What kind of sentence is that? The "proof" is that we have no evidence to the contrary. Nobody can prove a negative.

 

[Zombra]

What kind of sentence is that? The "proof" is that we have no evidence to the contrary. Nobody can prove a negative.

It's the kind of sentence that's correct. You can prove that something doesn't make sense by showing the contradiction. You can't show the contradiction here so your argument isn't substantial. Your assumptions are just as much "headcanon" as anything else that isn't spelled out.

 

[Lacrymas]

What we see is your sire being executed, that isn't an assumption, that is what happens. If we start asking ridiculous hypothetical questions about every story event in anything, we'll be listing them forever. Like I said, you can't prove a negative, there is no "contradiction" to show. Yeah, maybe it wasn't your sire, maybe it was magical pixies from the werewolf forest or maybe it's a teapot circling around Mars.

 

[Zombra]

What we see is your sire being executed, that isn't an assumption, that is what happens. If we start asking ridiculous hypothetical questions about every story event in anything, we'll be listing them forever. Like I said, you can't prove a negative, there is no "contradiction" to show. Yeah, maybe it wasn't your sire, maybe it was magical pixies from the werewolf forest or maybe it's a teapot circling around Mars.

This isn't far out space thinking. You yourself said a low generation vampire wouldn't let themselves be executed. I was agreeing with you. What could be more high level vampire-like than substituting a patsy?

As for this "you can't prove a negative" bullshit, that's dumb. If you want to make a case, prove it. If you can't prove it, it's not worth talking about, so ... best shut up. Hate to be that blunt but when your point of view rests on your own "headcanon", I'm calling you on it. If you're going to pull a "well, actually" when trying to rationalize a fucking video game plot, make it something that will stick. Your assumptions and guesses don't matter.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok. Prove to me that it wasn't magical pixies from the werewolf forest and then we'll talk about assumptions and guesses.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Ok. Prove to me that it wasn't magical pixies from the werewolf forest and then we'll talk about assumptions and guesses.

everyone knows that magical pixies hate urban environments and the werewolf forest is like a five hour drive from LA. Omnipotent space teapot is always a possibility, though.