Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[ga♥]

Do they have a penalty to stealth checks because of Obfuscation access? Does anyone know?

 

[Daedalos]

While my malkavian struggles with the same amount of points...how is that possible?

Malks talk to themselves constantly.

Kind of like codexers, then? Pretty sure there are striking similarities between malks and codexs

 

[Wesp5]

Now, one thing I found strange is that my tremere with sneaking of 4 could be undetected while stealthing by basicaly everyone.

Are you playing the original game or the basic patch? Because I made sneaking somewhat harder in the plus patch so you are only practically invisible when it's maxed out at 10.

While my malkavian struggles with the same amount of points...how is that possible?

Are you talking about points in Stealth or Sneaking, because for the later Dexterity is important too and that can be lowered by armor or raised by an occult item without you noticing it...

 

[ga♥]

Are you playing the original game or the basic patch? Because I made sneaking somewhat harder in the plus patch so you are only practically invisible when it's maxed out at 10.


Are you talking about points in Stealth or Sneaking, because for the later Dexterity is important too and that can be lowered by armor or raised by an occult item without you noticing it...

I am using your basic patch. And sneaking is the same between the 2 chars. Isn't sneaking the value that indicate the ability to stealth? And no I don't have fae charm atm and I didn't have it on my previous playthrough. As I said, the difference is quite strong with the guards at the museum and I don't get why.

Like I was able with my Tremere to enter the 1st security box in the museum basement, grab the book and hack the pc, without being noticed.
No chance with the Malk. Obviously I moved on using obfuscate since I couldn't hack the PC, but I don't get why this happened.

 

[Wesp5]

Obviously I moved on using obfuscate since I couldn't hack the PC, but I don't get why this happened.

Sorry, but I have no idea, except maybe that something made them alert earlier. Normally clan should have no influence on stealth detection...

 

[almondblight]

Just finished this for the first time, and overall it felt pretty "meh" (so I guess it fits in with other Codex top RPGs). Everyone seems to agree that the combat is weak and that there is too much of it. The game likes to drop you into places that are just long combat slogs of the same 1-3 enemies copy and pasted over and over again. Occasionally you get a location where there's no enemy and the only thing you're supposed to do is talk a very long walk from point A to point B (places like Oceanview and the Hospital). Not sure how Telltale gets so much hate for no gameplay here when large sections of Bloodlines are also devoid of it.

The atmosphere is...OK, I guess. It suffers from the same problem I've encountered with other modern RPGs, where they forego a travel map (other than a hub teleport map) and as a result the whole world feels really tiny. I mean, the plague vampires the Tremere want you to find are literally living across the street from the Tremere HQ (and they've spray painted their logo all over the building). Feels like a small town, two blocks of commercial area in the middle of nowhere. It also ends up feeling pretty empty in a lot of places - like large clubs where you only have one quest giver and one person to seduce. The TV, radio, and e-mail were nice touches, though.

Quests are extremely simplistic, with most being "Go to area X, kill person/get object, come back." There are a few that are more involved, like finding that thin bloods girlfriend, but they seem to be in the minority. The timing of quests can be wonky, too. For instance, I encountered Pisha after the museum quest, and it's impossible to return to the museum after that (there are other instances in the game like that).

The story is OK, but it feels railroaded and really unfocused. If they had kept with the power play and politics going on it would have been a lot more interesting. Instead it just has this weird ADD feeling - OK, fight crazy Malks now. Now fight the Sabbat. Now fight the triad. Now fight the Giovanni. Now fight the hunters. Even following the main quest, you start getting detached from the story. "OK, I'm investigating this group now because they have the tap I need to get on Isaacs good side so he can introduce me to the nosferatu who know what happened to the sarcophagus." Each step is like that, and your main character even comments on it at various points.

You're also forced to do thinks like tell LaCroix that you saw Nines (even though it's obvious something is up with that), or that you have to tell him you know about his alliance with Ming. Oh, but they give you 3 different ways to tell him the thing they force you to tell him! C&C felt pretty weak in general, and at the end of the game I was simply asked which of the 5 endings I wanted to pursue.

It was entertaining for the most part, and the voice acting was great (makes you wonder why a studio like Obsidian can't do voice acting right). It just felt very half-baked.

 

[Cael]

You're also forced to do thinks like tell LaCroix that you saw Nines (even though it's obvious something is up with that), or that you have to tell him you know about his alliance with Ming. Oh, but they give you 3 different ways to tell him the thing they force you to tell him! C&C felt pretty weak in general, and at the end of the game I was simply asked which of the 5 endings I wanted to pursue.

I have the same problems with the game. It is quite a railroad, especially if you want to play a person with any smidgen of ethics. You can't even investigate things for yourself and take a third option like the thing with Nines. Unlike Fallout 2, where you can take a third option when trying to figure out who killed Richard Wright. If that quest was in Bloodlines, it would be Renesco or Renesco.

Bloodlines is an overhyped game, which is a pity as the system it is based on is pretty nice and the lore behind it is extensive.

 

[Jarpie]

I've tried to get into VtMB from time to time, but the goth emo teen style/mood/etc is really off-putting, I can't fucking stand it. I presume it was taken from the original source material?

 

[Cael]

I've tried to get into VtMB from time to time, but the goth emo teen style/mood/etc is really off-putting, I can't fucking stand it. I presume it was taken from the original source material?

Not really. The original setting has a lot of the ideas of the Beast and the Machiavellian politics, but it did NOT have to be gothic. You can basically play it like any other secret organisation fighting another secret organisation trying to take over the world without the normal people knowing about it. Or you can play politics and drama or any other method of playing. The emo goth nonsense is the Bloodlines take on it.

Heck, take a look at Beckett. He is just a guy trying to find out the truth about lost history and in many ways like Indianna Jones.

 

[JBro]

Has anyone revisited the idea of porting the game to a non-shitty engine now that CCP is a nonfactor?

 

[ga♥]

I'd rather have new content.
Let's hope in a EE™ eXperience by Beamdog©

 

[Cael]

I'd rather have new content.
Let's hope in a EE™ eXperience by Beamdog©

Does a railroad need more railroads?

 

[gaussgunner]

I've tried to get into VtMB from time to time, but the goth emo teen style/mood/etc is really off-putting, I can't fucking stand it. I presume it was taken from the original source material?

Isn't it just homage/parody of the 90s and early 00s? That shit was huge. Most of the characters in this game are pretty mild compared to some goths and punks I saw IRL (and I wasn't even part of that scene).

And if you listened to the radio you may have heard: The Deb of Night does NOT endorse the goth lifestyle. Case closed.

 

[almondblight]

I have the same problems with the game. It is quite a railroad, especially if you want to play a person with any smidgen of ethics. You can't even investigate things for yourself and take a third option like the thing with Nines.

Yeah. And it would be one thing if the game was simply linear and said, "Hey, you're the agent of the Prince, the game is about you doing a linear set of missions for him." But the game presents you with alternatives - the Prince even tells you to visit the Anarchs to hear their pitch (though it makes no sense for him to do so). You also meet with Strauss, and he tells you how concerned he is with LaCroix getting the Ankaran sarcophagus. But then the game forces you to do whatever LaCroix tells you, including getting the sarcophagus for him (even though it's obvious that it's a bad idea and that you're going to have to undo it in the end). You don't even get the opportunity to discuss the situation with Strauss (who, after your initial meeting, just sits there passively for the rest of the game).

Bloodlines also has you make a choice and then actively ignores them. For instance, the Voerman sisters told me that if I told anyone what happened in the office, they'd kill me. I immediately proceeded to tell Bertram Tung, who's their enemy, as well as Beckett. There were absolutely no consequences for doing so. Or the choices feel pointless, like with the slasher. It doesn't really seem to make any difference if you let him live or kill him (it was also an incredibly anticlimactic ending to something that was being set up through the first 2/3's of the game as on of the major mysteries).

The original setting has a lot of the ideas of the Beast and the Machiavellian politics, but it did NOT have to be gothic. You can basically play it like any other secret organisation fighting another secret organisation trying to take over the world without the normal people knowing about it. Or you can play politics and drama or any other method of playing. The emo goth nonsense is the Bloodlines take on it.

The secret organization politics would have been a lot more interesting. You meet a bunch of influential vampires, but they simply exist as static quest givers.

 

[Zombra]

Breaking news: excellent RPG could have been better if development wasn't cut short. Film after these important messages.

 

[Cael]

Yeah. And it would be one thing if the game was simply linear and said, "Hey, you're the agent of the Prince, the game is about you doing a linear set of missions for him." But the game presents you with alternatives - the Prince even tells you to visit the Anarchs to hear their pitch (though it makes no sense for him to do so). You also meet with Strauss, and he tells you how concerned he is with LaCroix getting the Ankaran sarcophagus. But then the game forces you to do whatever LaCroix tells you, including getting the sarcophagus for him (even though it's obvious that it's a bad idea and that you're going to have to undo it in the end). You don't even get the opportunity to discuss the situation with Strauss (who, after your initial meeting, just sits there passively for the rest of the game).

Bloodlines also has you make a choice and then actively ignores them. For instance, the Voerman sisters told me that if I told anyone what happened in the office, they'd kill me. I immediately proceeded to tell Bertram Tung, who's their enemy, as well as Beckett. There were absolutely no consequences for doing so. Or the choices feel pointless, like with the slasher. It doesn't really seem to make any difference if you let him live or kill him (it was also an incredibly anticlimactic ending to something that was being set up through the first 2/3's of the game as on of the major mysteries).

Yes. Most of the quest don't really have different outcomes and in the end, all that matters is that final choice where you chose one of 4 or 5 endings. What you did in the meantime didn't really matter. Unlike, for example, Fallout, where your ingame choices do matter. Even NWN gives more choice and consequences than Bloodlines.

But, of course, if you tell that to the fanbois, you get stalked and lynched.

 

[Sykar]

You're also forced to do thinks like tell LaCroix that you saw Nines (even though it's obvious something is up with that), or that you have to tell him you know about his alliance with Ming. Oh, but they give you 3 different ways to tell him the thing they force you to tell him! C&C felt pretty weak in general, and at the end of the game I was simply asked which of the 5 endings I wanted to pursue.

I have the same problems with the game. It is quite a railroad, especially if you want to play a person with any smidgen of ethics. You can't even investigate things for yourself and take a third option like the thing with Nines. Unlike Fallout 2, where you can take a third option when trying to figure out who killed Richard Wright. If that quest was in Bloodlines, it would be Renesco or Renesco.

Bloodlines is an overhyped game, which is a pity as the system it is based on is pretty nice and the lore behind it is extensive.

Name me an cRPG where the main quest is not a main road and where most quests are not of the same type.

Yeah. And it would be one thing if the game was simply linear and said, "Hey, you're the agent of the Prince, the game is about you doing a linear set of missions for him." But the game presents you with alternatives - the Prince even tells you to visit the Anarchs to hear their pitch (though it makes no sense for him to do so). You also meet with Strauss, and he tells you how concerned he is with LaCroix getting the Ankaran sarcophagus. But then the game forces you to do whatever LaCroix tells you, including getting the sarcophagus for him (even though it's obvious that it's a bad idea and that you're going to have to undo it in the end). You don't even get the opportunity to discuss the situation with Strauss (who, after your initial meeting, just sits there passively for the rest of the game).

Bloodlines also has you make a choice and then actively ignores them. For instance, the Voerman sisters told me that if I told anyone what happened in the office, they'd kill me. I immediately proceeded to tell Bertram Tung, who's their enemy, as well as Beckett. There were absolutely no consequences for doing so. Or the choices feel pointless, like with the slasher. It doesn't really seem to make any difference if you let him live or kill him (it was also an incredibly anticlimactic ending to something that was being set up through the first 2/3's of the game as on of the major mysteries).

Yes. Most of the quest don't really have different outcomes and in the end, all that matters is that final choice where you chose one of 4 or 5 endings. What you did in the meantime didn't really matter. Unlike, for example, Fallout, where your ingame choices do matter. Even NWN gives more choice and consequences than Bloodlines.

But, of course, if you tell that to the fanbois, you get stalked and lynched.

I could easily say that for the game itself the choices in Fallout do not really matter either, just for the ending slides.

 

[Cael]

Name me an cRPG where the main quest is not a main road and where most quests are not of the same type.

I don't recall any of the NWN forcing you to incriminate someone instead of staying silent about it. In fact, Fallout2 had one, where you can tell Tandi about the deathclaws in Vault 13 or you don't tell her about the deathclaws. Either way, her reaction is different but you get the choice. In Bloodlines, it is tell LaCroix or tell LaCroix.

The fact that you think that this kind of railroad is normal and, more importantly, makes for a GOOD game speaks much of your fanboism.

 

[Sykar]

Name me an cRPG where the main quest is not a main road and where most quests are not of the same type.

I don't recall any of the NWN forcing you to incriminate someone instead of staying silent about it. In fact, Fallout2 had one, where you can tell Tandi about the deathclaws in Vault 13 or you don't tell her about the deathclaws. Either way, her reaction is different but you get the choice. In Bloodlines, it is tell LaCroix or tell LaCroix.

The fact that you think that this kind of railroad is normal and, more importantly, makes for a GOOD game speaks much of your fanboism.

In no way did I say that railroading was "good". I said that railroading the main quest is common even among the best cRPGs and for understandable reasons because computers and programming are limited and when you add a new layer your extra work can increase exponentially. What you mentioned about the Deathclaws is irrelevant for the main quest. They could not be there and it would not matter one bit. It is nice if the game has a few more nuances but that does not change the fact that almost any cRPGs main quest is railroaded, including the one of FO 1 and FO 2.
I could easily make the same stupid comment by the way, you not accepting that the main quest is railroaded as well just more subtly makes you a FO fanboy.

 

[Zero Credibility]

The part with you telling on the Nines is explained in the game. The Prince already knows perfectly well who you saw there, he just needs you to tell him. If you kept silent he would just say he doesn't believe you, dominate you and ask you again. Assuming he hasn't done that already, there's a part of that dialogue that could imply something happening (the "Look at me." as he makes eyes contact). The poorly done part of of this plot is how weak an actor the chinese vamp chick is. FFS, she's a shapeshifter vampire probably hundreds of years old, and she knew you were coming so had all the time to prepare herself. And that was the best performance she could give? It's like she wanted the whole thing to fall apart.

 

[vivec]

Which she probably did. Maybe a case of unintentional intelligence.

 

[Cael]

In no way did I say that railroading was "good". I said that railroading the main quest is common even among the best cRPGs and for understandable reasons because computers and programming are limited and when you add a new layer your extra work can increase exponentially. What you mentioned about the Deathclaws is irrelevant for the main quest. They could not be there and it would not matter one bit. It is nice if the game has a few more nuances but that does not change the fact that almost any cRPGs main quest is railroaded, including the one of FO 1 and FO 2.
I could easily make the same stupid comment by the way, you not accepting that the main quest is railroaded as well just more subtly makes you a FO fanboy.

In no way did I say you think railroading is good. I said that you believe that that railroad of a game is good and by extension railroading in it makes for a good game. It is a subtle difference, one that is amply demonstrated by Ultima 7 and 7:2. One is more railroady than the other but has a tighter narrative as a result.

A railroad is not necessarily bad. However, in the case of Bloodlines, it is absolute shite.

Here is an example of a couple of good railroads and a couple of bad ones. Same scenario. You saw Nines and you are reporting back to LaCroix.

1. You don't tell LaCroix you saw Nines. LaCroix reveals that he knows anyway and he is disappointed in you. You lose points with him (which the game, funnily enough, already do track after a fashion) for "failing" the test.
2. You don't tell LaCroix you saw Nines. He Dominates you and forces you to tell as a show of his power. This is stupid on several fronts, not the least of which is that he is creating an enemy that would actively work against him by his act. As a supposed master manipulator who became Prince of a major city at a relatively ridiculously young age, that is out of character in the extreme.
3. You don't tell, and LaCroix keeps silent, letting you believe you got away with it, but he knows and is keeping track of your rebellion (read: lose points).
4. You are not even given the chance not to tell him.

In all cases, little change is required in the subsequent section of the plot. However, 2 of those listed would give the player a bad taste in the mouth, while the other two are, if not acceptable, then at least are known and used tropes and therefore sort of forgivable.

Bloodlines is FULL of those kind of BAD railroads. It is just that BADLY written.

 

[Wesp5]

But then the game forces you to do whatever LaCroix tells you, including getting the sarcophagus for him (even though it's obvious that it's a bad idea and that you're going to have to undo it in the end).

If you didn't get the sarcophagus, the game would be over, it's as simple as that . And at least if you side with the Anarchs early on, they tell you to do LaCroix's bidding so they know what he is up to.

For instance, the Voerman sisters told me that if I told anyone what happened in the office, they'd kill me. I immediately proceeded to tell Bertram Tung, who's their enemy, as well as Beckett.

Tung isn't their enemy, if you read Jeanette's diary you see that they even had intercourse . That was only Therese's paranoia! The same goes for Beckett who is a loner and wouldn't tell anyone about this. In contrary if you betray Strauss later on you'll miss one of the endings, so sometimes things do matter, but indeed not always...

 

[Wesp5]

Has anyone revisited the idea of porting the game to a non-shitty engine now that CCP is a nonfactor?

Yes, the guy behind the original attempt that was stopped by CCP tried it again with Paradox, but Activision seems to have no interest in this. Bloodlines still sells quite well after all this time and someone would need to invest money in this with unclear profits...

 

[Momock]

Name me an cRPG where the main quest is not a main road and where most quests are not of the same type.

In Fallout 2 the objective is to find a thing, the path doesn't matter. So there's no "main road".