Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Prime Junta]

Well then, that just brings us back to the "Caine is empowering the PC" or some such dumb, trivial explanation. If we're going strictly by PnP rules, there is no way someone can reach a level 5 mastery over a certain Discipline in a few weeks with 0 assistance and tutelage. In all of WoD's lore, it has never happened, not once.

Precisely. That's why the question is, why assisted and tutored the PC, how, and why?

If you bend the rules that far, you're not bending them, you're outright breaking them.

Indeed. Which is why it's obvious that there's something going on that we're not being told about.

I agree that Cainedidit is a dumb and trivial explanation BTW. The challenge is, how to come up with a non-dumb, non-trivial explanation for it? Again -- I find that just going "bah they cheated" is ... unappealing. It's uncreative and rigid. I wouldn't want to have a PnP game with someone with that mindset for example.

 

[Lambach]

The challenge is, how to come up with a non-dumb, non-trivial explanation for it?

That's like asking how you can smash through a thick concrete wall with only your naked fists. It's not a challenge, it's outright impossibility. WoD lore has no precedent for a case like VtMB's PC nor the mechanics to back it up, so any explanation other than "it's a video-game" is null and void from a PnP standpoint.

 

[Delterius]

I thought the motivations for Tim Caine and Jack were pretty obvious from the ending. They wanted to test all the factions of LA to see how they acted around the Sarcophagus. The PC is a new, neutral observer that is part of that test and gets to say how it all ends. Wether they are responsible for the PCs power boost is less relevant than how they are responsible for everything else.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's like asking how you can smash through a thick concrete wall with only your naked fists. It's not a challenge, it's outright impossibility. WoD lore has no precedent for a case like VtMB's PC, so any explanation other than "it's a video-game" is null and void from a PnP standpoint.

Smashing through a thick concrete wall with only your naked fists is totally possible, if someone weakened it for you sufficiently beforehand.

Or, in this case, you yourself admitted that it would be possible with sufficient assistance and tutoring. So, again, the question is, who assisted and tutored the PC, and why?

 

[Delterius]

The God of Avatars and Murderhobos did.

 

[Wesp5]

Sure, if you drink a lot of elder vitae. I don't think it works that way mechanically though; you don't have to consume any of those elder vitae blood packs. I didn't in my last playthrough, and there isn't any forced event where you would do it.

BTW, can you get Blood Bound by drinking from a blood pack or something similar? Or do you need to drink directly?

He'd have to embrace the PC while, perhaps, changing his appearance to match Fake Sire's. Then he'd put Fake Sire on the scene, get someone to snitch on them to LaCroix, and wait. LaCroix's goons show up, stake PC and Fake Sire, and the trial is staged. Being blood bound, Fake Sire can't speak up because doing so would betray his regnant, so he has no choice but to submit to his fate.

Real Sire has made sure Nines is present, and is fairly confident that LaCroix will spare his childe because politics. He would certainly have some backup plan in place too of course, probably involving Jack, but we never find out what that is.

That's the idea that I had! You see, the Prequel should be about how Jack and the Cabbie set up the events around the sarcophagus and the Bloodlines player and his Sire could have their own story to explain a bit of the connected mysteries...

 

[Lambach]

Man, you really are lacking in creativity.

Maybe. But I like to think that if you need to shit all over the established rules and pay them no heed whatsoever, you're not really being creative, you're just a modern """artist""".

Smashing through a thick concrete wall with only your naked fists is totally possible, if someone weakened it for you sufficiently beforehand.

Have you ever tried punching even an old, half-crumbled concrete wall?

Or, in this case, you yourself admitted that it would be possible with sufficient assistance and tutoring.

What? Where? I did no such thing. No amount of assistance or tutoring can help you jump 4 levels in a Discipline in 4-8 weeks. That takes decades of active practice and determined study. The reason I'm mentioning tutoring, or lack thereof, is to further emphasize the sheer impossibility of the PC's situation.

So, again, the question is, who assisted and tutored the PC, and why?

Nobody who got any screen time, so this just goes into the realm of shitty fan-fiction.

 

[Sizzle]

I thought the motivations for Tim Caine and Jack were pretty obvious from the ending. They wanted to test all the factions of LA to see how they acted around the Sarcophagus. The PC is a new, neutral observer that is part of that test and gets to say how it all ends. Wether they are responsible for the PCs power boost is less relevant than how they are responsible for everything else.

That's what I always got out of the story as well - Gehenna is approaching, so Cain (with a little help from Jack) wants to test his children a bit. Introduce an element over which they'll all bicker - the sarcophagus - and make it seem like it's holding an actual sleeping ancient because everyone is feeling strange because of Cain's presence. Find a fledgling and imbue him/her with greater power and see how this neutral neophyte will navigate the various factions and what choice will he make.

 

[Prime Junta]

Here's another idea.

What do you reckon would happen if a late-generation neonate were to diablerize an antediluvian?

I would expect the antediluvian's blood to overcome the neonate's. The neonate would rapidly gain the personality and many of the powers of the antediluvian. To outside observers it would look like she developed mastery in vampiric disciplines in an uncannily short time. Over a bit longer period, the antediluvian's memories and identity would resurface as well, and he would gain a new round of un-life in a body which can sustain itself on blood rather than requiring kindred vitae.

Now. Suppose the Sarcophagus actually did contain an antediluvian. The ancient king rose, and decided that it desires to un-live again. So, it hatched a plan, using its blood-bound servants to execute it. His servant would sire a childe: a late-gen, perhaps even thin-blood vampire. Then, with the servant's assistance, the childe would diablerize the antediluvian. The sire would await the arrival of LaCroix's executioners, and the rest of the plot would have the childe -- really the re-born antediluvian regaining his powers -- survive, learn, and make a place for itself in Kindred society.

This would tie in a bunch of elements in the game -- the sarcophagus, the characters clearly advancing someone else's agenda -- with the apparent impossibility of a neonate gaining the powers of a centuries-old seventh-generation vampire in a matter of weeks or months.

Thoughts?

 

[Prime Junta]

Nobody who got any screen time, so this just goes into the realm of shitty fan-fiction.

Why are you so interested in the discussion then? Just GTFO and leave us to it.

 

[makiavelli747]

this just goes into the realm of shitty fan-fiction

exactly

 

[Prime Junta]

BTW, can you get Blood Bound by drinking from a blood pack or something similar? Or do you need to drink directly?

I don't think the rules say.

If I was the Storyteller, I would rule that you have to drink directly.

 

[Delterius]

The God of Avatars and Murderhobos did.

I was being serious by the way. I think its humorous to imagine that VTMB shows us an instance of videogame characters reacting to the GM fiat. You the PC are so awesome you are actually 8th gen when you should have been 10th or whatever and Andrei is all 'wtf dude'.

 

[makiavelli747]

BTW, can you get Blood Bound by drinking from a blood pack or something similar? Or do you need to drink directly?

yes, you will get blood bound from blood pack

 

[Prime Junta]

BTW, can you get Blood Bound by drinking from a blood pack or something similar? Or do you need to drink directly?

yes, you will get blood bound from blood pack

Citation needed.

 

[Lambach]

Thoughts?

I'd say it's retarded as hell, but then again, the only time an Antideluvian awoke prior to Gehenna itself, that ancient god-like figure with an alien intellect and the power to reshape reality at whim decided to act out its best impression of Godzilla, so who fucking knows.

 

[Prime Junta]

I'd say it's retarded as hell, but then again, the only time an Antideluvian awoke prior to Gehenna itself, that ancient god-like figure with an alien intellect and the power to reshape reality at whim decided to act out its best impression of Godzilla, so who fucking knows.

In other words, you concede that there is a scenario where an apparent neonate could gain five ranks in a vampiric discipline over a matter of weeks, without apparent tutoring or assistance. QED

Edit: BTW mechanically it wouldn't have to be an antediluvian and a thin-blood, I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen with a methuselah or other low-generation post-Flood vamp and a 10+-gen neonate. So you could build any number of complicated and contrived scenarios around that "elder blood overcomes the younger" mechanical explanation.

 

[Lambach]

In other words, you concede that there is a scenario where an apparent neonate could gain five ranks in a vampiric discipline over a matter of weeks, without apparent tutoring or assistance. QED

There is, but I'm not going to entertain that possibility because it's on a "my custom Pokemon is better than your custom Pokemon" level. Which, now that I think about it, was the same level all "Time of Judgement" books had.

White Wolf really went to shit in the late nineties.

 

[Delterius]

Thats the metaplot. It gets worse the closer to real life gehenna.

 

[makiavelli747]

White Wolf really went to shit in the late nineties.

exactly

 

[Prime Junta]

There is, but I'm not going to entertain that possibility because it's on a "my custom Pokemon is better than your custom Pokemon" level. Which, now that I think about it, was the same level all "Time of Judgement" books had.

Thank you for conceding so gracefully.

 

[Wesp5]

Now. Suppose the Sarcophagus actually did contain an antediluvian. The ancient king rose, and decided that it desires to un-live again. So, it hatched a plan, using its blood-bound servants to execute it. His servant would sire a childe: a late-gen, perhaps even thin-blood vampire. Then, with the servant's assistance, the childe would diablerize the antediluvian. The sire would await the arrival of LaCroix's executioners, and the rest of the plot would have the childe -- really the re-born antediluvian regaining his powers -- survive, learn, and make a place for itself in Kindred society.

While a nice idea in theory, I have several issues with that:
1) LaCroix and everyone at the trial could see that the player commited Diablerie and would be extremely suspicious.
2) This would not explain the mummy sitting besides Jack in the end as the antediluvian would have been destroyed.
3) From what Johansen explains Messerach seems to have only been a ghould of the real vampire queen Lamastu.
4) For the Prequel we would need to introduce a new main character which nobody has ever heard of before.

 

[Gord]

Also, why go to such great lengths to obscure your "true" nature when other vamps will still get suspicious due to your immense powers, even if they don't find out about your diablerie?
Seems a bit too far-fetched to me.

Nah, I think there are two ways to do it - either go with the solution that an very powerful low-gen vampire (be it Caine/Cabbie or someone unknown) orchestrated everything including the low-gen player character, or accept that all the inconsistencies (those pointing towards low-gen player) are just a result of Troika making concessions in order to provide gameplay within typical cRPG conventions.

Both approaches clash to some extend with established PnP rules and lore, but making the player high-gen probably requires less explaining (other than GAEMPLAY!).

 

[Delterius]

Any and all questions can be answered by these words: the canon playthrough is malkavian.

 

[makiavelli747]

the canon playthrough is malkavian

actually it's more like Brujah for Anarchs ending