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Interview Project Eternity Interview @ Irontower

VentilatorOfDoom

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Tags: Iron Tower; J.E. Sawyer; Obsidian Entertainment; Project Eternity; Vault Dweller

Irontower Studio's Vince D. Weller caught up with Obsidian's Josh Sawyer on the subject of "Project Eternity".
1. Let's skip traditional KS questions like "Did you really think it will get funded? What are you going to do with all this money?" and jump straight to game-making business.

So, a brand new world... What are elves and dwarves doing there? Mind you, I'm not against "encompassing the recognizable", I'm merely curious what your reasons were. Is it a Baldur's Gate thing?


A large number of players like to play familiar races. Of the common fantasy RPG races, dwarves and elves are the two that players gravitate toward most often. Also, because we stated we were making a game inspired by the Infinity Engine games and, implicitly, the Forgotten Realms setting used in most of them, it seemed appropriate.

We're going to have subrace offshoots that are slightly less traditional (like the "boreal" dwarves that people have already seen) as well as increasingly unusual races like orlans, aumaua, and godlike, but if you want to play a fair-haired bow-twanging elf or an axe-swinging bearded dwarf, we've got it covered.

2. As a follow up question, when it comes to recognizable and familiar vs strange and bizarre, how far is too far? Do you find that the players in general are more comfortable with the familiar? How willing are they to take their time to figure out something truly different?

People in general are more comfortable with the familiar, but players vary a great deal. Some players react extremely negatively if any aspect of the setting or mechanics in the game is unusual or unorthodox. Some players are of the opinion that if something's been done before, they're not interested in seeing it done again. There are also single-issue gamers. I've seen gamers who aren't interested in an RPG unless there are dwarves in it and I've seen gamers who write off an RPG if there are firearms in it. Above all else, many RPG fans are passionate, so if you push their buttons, there's a good chance the response will be strong.

I also think that gamers often trip over the same logical and emotional hurdles that anyone does. If they've used something before and liked the experience, it can be hard for them to see the flaws in that experience. Similarly, if they don't like the ideas they formulate about how something is going to work, they can have difficulty revising their views even after it's been explained to work contrary to their assumptions.
So, he knows gamers who aren't interested in RPGs unless there are dwarves in it... hmm.. I wonder what he's on about FFS.
 

hiver

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hmmm?

:lol: This should be interesting... :P

- no link? what is this... dark ages?.. i am shocked, shocked i say... :point:

- grummble...have to...do ... everything... myself....these days...-
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Only quoting the settingfag questions? :rpgcodex:

Combatfags:
4. Speaking of arcane veils and such, one of the most praised features in BG2 was the mage duels. In BG a wizard was an annoying pest lurking behind fighters and waiting to be shot full of arrows. In BG a wizard was an impregnable juggernaut, capable of wiping out your entire party, if it was caught unprepared. What should we expect in Project Eternity?

Personally, I believe AD&D elevated the "glass cannon" conception of wizards to an un-fun place. It's cool that, especially in 2nd Edition, wizards had so many spells to use, but in Baldur's Gate II, I believe it resulted in more-or-less strict combat puzzles rather than loose combat puzzles or tactical challenges. If the only viable way through a fight is to use a specific sequence of spells, that's not something that you tactically opt to do -- it's the thing you must do to move forward. And in many of those fights, the only way to figure out what spells to use is to trigger the fight, get wiped, reload, and try again.

I think we can still have powerful, high-threat wizards in Project Eternity without using rock-paper-scissors defense and counter mechanics. I'd like to present players with challenges that make them think of a variety of solutions. I want them to feel like they can be flexible and adaptive when an unforeseen challenge appears. If the game comes out and I see walkthroughs that all suggest the exact same tactics for going through a tough fight, I believe that's a failure on my part.

5. Stamina, health, and regeneration. A lot has been speculated on the topic, so would you mind clarifying it? What are the advantages of a "dual-bar" system? What does it do that a single-bar system can't? What role does stamina regeneration play?

The "dual-bar" or two resource system allows the player to have separate tactical and strategic resources for their characters' survivability in combat. In most versions of A/D&D, you have hit points that determine how much damage a character can take before he or she can no longer perform actions in combat. If you're playing in a more forgiving edition, you also have "Death's Door" rules that allow the character to dip into negative hit point values without being killed outright.

Many A/D&D adventures have an expectation of periodic healing, so if your party members have a rough fight, the party cleric, druid, or maybe paladin has to spend resources to make you viable for the next fight. This leads to the "healing battery" expectation, where someone in the party has to devote strategic resources to healing between fights -- or you're stuck walking back to a resting location with high frequency. Neither of those options are particularly enjoyable for many players.

With Stamina and Health, Stamina represents short term damage (shock, impact trauma, initial pain) and Health represents "the bad stuff" (burns, cuts, bruised ribs, etc.). When you take damage, you lose Stamina, but you also lose Health at a fixed ratio to the amount of Stamina damage you took. Currently it's at 1:4 Health:Stamina. When you run out of Stamina, your character gets knocked out, just like hitting 0 hit points in most editions of A/D&D. You're effectively out of the fight and you're not going to get back up without outside assistance.

If you're conscious, Stamina will regenerate quickly. "How quickly, Josh?" I don't know, man, but... pretty fast. It's the thing you're most likely to run out of in combat, but you'll probably get most or all of it back before you start another fight. You can also recover Stamina through the use of spells or class abilities, so it's something you can choose to tactically manage in combat. Between fights, it's really not an issue. No one has to cast ten healing spells in a row to get characters back into fighting shape because the Stamina will return in short order.

Health damage doesn't regenerate and you can't get it back with magic. You have to rest to recover Health. If your Health hits zero, you'll either enter some form of maimed/critically injured (and unconscious) state or, optionally (and all the time in Expert mode), be killed outright. If you explore far away from rest locations and keep getting your faces pounded in, you can have characters with very low Health and high Stamina. That's a dangerous circumstance to be in because even one or two blows could lead to a character being maimed or killed.

Ultimately, the mechanics are present to allow "hit points" and unconsciousness to be a real threat in individual combats without necessitating the presence of a healer or resting to allow for more exploration.

6. What are your thoughts on combat difficulty? Where is the line between challenging and frustrating? Would we have to download "Sawyer's Hardcore Mod!" separately (btw, loved the mod, great work) to enjoy Project Eternity properly or would it be a challenging experience "out of the box"?

Thanks. You should not need to download a separate mod for a challenge, but there will be a pretty big gulf between playing on standard difficulty without Expert and playing on higher difficulty with Expert (not to mention the other two challenge modes). My opinion on challenge is that accomplishments you achieve without some measure of frustration often feel unfulfilling, but every player has his or her own comfort zone for frustration. Some players only feel satisfied if the frustration level is high and the game is kicking them in the virtual groin. Other players really don't deal well with adversity and would rather overcome conflicts with minimal resistance.

I do think it's worth saying that tactical combat is a core part of the game, as it was for almost all of the Infinity Engine games. If someone simply doesn't like combat, Project Eternity may not be the game for them. There are ways to avoid combat or gain a distinct advantage in combat, but a good chunk of the game is built around it.

7. Tim Cain said that "Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism." May I ask why?

Everyone in a party contributes to the party's overall combat efficacy and failure in a combat challenge is a game-ending (or at least reloading-invoking) event. With combat, you can fail or succeed by degrees. Failure in a non-combat challenge is usually not in degrees, but in absolutes, and there's not much (if any) tactical decision-making that can change the outcome. Additionally, combat is always a way through areas. While we are going to give players many different ways to navigate areas and resolve conflicts, combat will be a common means of moving forward.

Because combat will usually be more dominant than any single other means of conflict resolution, and because every character contributes to party combat efficacy, increasing an individual character's combat capability is always a strategically sound decision (assuming you aren't metagaming every non-combat challenge). The thing is, we want people to use non-combat skills to navigate through the environment and solve problems, so we want characters to have those skills! Dividing combat and non-combat skills into separate resources allows parties to be good in and out of combat, but a party still will not be able to cover all "bases". The system we're making doesn't assume that you have maximum combat capabilities and are buying skills like a 3E rogue with an 18 Intelligence.

C&Cfags:
8. Chris Avellone mentioned several times that the player will be able to avoid some combat encounters with non-combat skills. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Project Eternity will be a combat-heavy game (like Baldur's Gate was) with combat oriented classes. Why would a combat party want to avoid combat? How are you going to balance the loss of experience, content, and loot?

Yes, Project Eternity will have a lot of combat (though probably not as much as Icewind Dale II!) and the classes are all "battle ready". Players can avoid or stall combat either to gain an advantage or to stretch their resources between safe resting locations. Some players may simply not want to fight certain enemies or they might want to peacefully resolve a conflict.

Tim and I would both like to use an experience system that relies heavily (if not wholly) on quest, objective (i.e. steps within a quest), and challenge (e.g. exploration rewards) rewards. We want to encourage players to solve problems by whatever means are at their disposal. Combat is a very common solution, but that shouldn't be the only solution. If our experience system discourages the use of alternate resolution mechanics, it's at odds with that goal.

As far as loot goes, I don't want to rely heavily on putting all of the best gear on enemies. Again, that would conflict with the goal of allowing the player to resolve problems in the way that they would like to.

9. Which speech/conversation skills and ability are planned or being discussed and why? Are there any spells that can grant you new dialogue-related abilities like PST's speak with the dead ability?

We haven't discussed conversation skills as much as reputation mechanics. To me, conversation is one of the primary means players have of defining the type of person they are playing in the world. Instead of a heavy emphasis on conversation skills, I would rather allow players to behave in a variety of ways and develop robust reputation systems to react to those choices throughout the game. I think it's more interesting to allow a person to select diplomatic responses and develop a reputation for being a diplomat than to level up a Diplomacy skill and pick the Diplomacy option when it's unlocked for you.

I think some of the best role-playing experiences come from expressing your character's personality in the way that you want and seeing how the world reacts to it. I believe that we can make a conversation system that allows people to do this with dialogues and characters in a natural way.

10. Chris mentioned that you "want to explore the idea of speech as a tool not as a key", citing "intimidating, flattering, pissing people off" as examples and "providing a broader context or more information on the target" as the goals/rewards. While it worked well in Planescape: Torment, it does sound like you're marginalizing the speech skills, going from one extreme (a win button) to another (mostly flavor). Any thoughts on that?

I'd like to marginalize the speech skills into the dust bin, personally. I think the player's conversation choices should be important without dead-ending quests and I think that Alpha Protocol managed to find ways to do that. There are certainly optimal choices for the player to make if you want a certain type of outcome (e.g. impressing one character instead of another), but dialogue isn't a right/wrong puzzle.

I don't think it's correct to say that I want dialogue choices to be flavor only. I want the player's choices from node to node to actually be more mechanically significant that they have been in most RPGs. That consists of two parts: the immediate reaction within the conversation and the long-term effects of how that choice feeds into your reputation. Sometimes the short-term effects are minor, but the reputation system won't "forget" what you've done.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Some controversial stuff here. This is Sawyerism distilled - I anticipate a lot of butthurt. In before Roguey.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's baffling to me how so many people hold this guy (Sawyer) in such high regard.

Sawyer is a kind of gamist extremist, basically. And that's interesting - I'm not necessarily against it. I'd like to see where that approach can take us.

What I fear may be true however, is that the only reason his design approach does not end up creating utterly soulless games is because it is buttressed by Obsidian's excellent writing talent.

I posted this interview on the Obsidian forums: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62...erview-with-josh-sawyer-at-iron-tower-studio/
 

Roguey

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ILU Josh. Finally, the possibility of a RPG I might actually have fun with despite the Tolkien crap and real-time-with-pause combat.
I'd like to marginalize the speech skills into the dust bin, personally.
:yeah:
 

hiver

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Seems pretty awesome from what ive read so far.
Honest to the bone too. - going back to finish -

-one of the best interviews ive read in years , - if they manage to pull that off i will be buying the game, box and everything. will be nice to make them these extra sales numbers better too -
 

Volourn

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"I've seen gamers who aren't interested in an RPG unless there are dwarves in it"

SHOUT OUT FOR #5 VOLOURN HATER SAWYER!!!


"Personally, I believe AD&D elevated the "glass cannon" conception of wizards to an un-fun place. It's cool that, especially in 2nd Edition, wizards had so many spells to use, but in Baldur's Gate II, I believe it resulted in more-or-less strict combat puzzles rather than loose combat puzzles or tactical challenges. If the only viable way through a fight is to use a specific sequence of spells, that's not something that you tactically opt to do -- it's the thing you must do to move forward. And in many of those fights, the only way to figure out what spells to use is to trigger the fight, get wiped, reload, and try again."

Bull;shitz. I managed to squash puny wizards in BG2 withotu using any of those wisshy washy anti mage spells like breachballz. FFS Did he even play the fukkin' game?
 

hiver

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Tim and Sawyer are kicking ass.

Vince should do more interviews.
 

Jaesun

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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Damn that was a good fucking read. <3

Man if they can pull off what Sawyer is saying in here this could be one fucking good cRPG.
 

hiver

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I am one of those that hates guns in fantasy RPGs... but this sounds so good i wont even care that much.

Also great comment:

I also think that gamers often trip over the same logical and emotional hurdles that anyone does. If they've used something before and liked the experience, it can be hard for them to see the flaws in that experience. Similarly, if they don't like the ideas they formulate about how something is going to work, they can have difficulty revising their views even after it's been explained to work contrary to their assumptions.

hah!

godamn manly interview.
:bro:

i already feel hair on my chest growing stronger.
huzzah!
 

felipepepe

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The thing is, we want people to use non-combat skills to navigate through the environment and solve problems, so we want characters to have those skills!
I don't like this, it seems to give everyone the same tools, to eliminate the importance of balancing your party for combat/non-combat skills... smells like that dumb "we want every player to experience everything on their first (and only) playthrough" shit...

I don't think it's correct to say that I want dialogue choices to be flavor only.
Unfortunally, it's exctly what this looks like...

As for the speech skills, yes, I would kill "speech" and "diplomacy" as well, but would balance it back with tons of non-combat skill checks, somewhat like VD did on AoD...

Bull;shitz. I managed to squash puny wizards in BG2 withotu using any of those wisshy washy anti mage spells like breachballz. FFS Did he even play the fukkin' game?
While it was perfectly doable, it's probably not "the most efficient way", and Sawyer strikes me as one obessed over efficiency.
 

Hormalakh

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It's Sawyer and Cain both working on this project. I've seen Cain's work before and I loved it. It was buggy as hell, but it was beautiful. Sawyer's work I haven't really seen before (never played IWD/FONV) but after reading that interview I'm psyched.
 

Tigranes

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I've seen both "RPGs must have dwarves" and "RPGs must not have firearms" on the OE forums during the Kickstarter drive, so it's not fake at least.

(Yes, I'm excluding Volo)

Especially with stuff Sawyer likes to talk about, you need to really see the nitty gritty to be able to tell for sure. E.g. his answers to #4 and #6 at this stage can't really tell us anything.
 

Rake

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Solid ideas. If they can pull everything off remains to be seen.But with Cain and Sawyer i have hope they can do it.
 

Hormalakh

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I'm a dumbass. But I haven't played either of them, so... Still working through the lists found here on the Codex and IWD isn't up at the top.
 

evdk

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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The combat / noncombat skill division does not fill me with hapiness but otherwise some pretty solid design ideas. I'm especially looking forward to the implemenation of a reputation system to dialogues.
 

hiver

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Its a genius move to make combat and non combat skills separate. Genius.
Also guys - he explicitly said that wont mean you could have everything of the both - whole group/team included.

It is basically what SoZ did when it allowed you to choose who of the characters will talk, due to different skillz each had.
This is upgrade of that.


And he is totally right about dialogue being extremely binary affair.
As opposed to combat gradation of achievement/success or loss.


plus, BGII did very often get that thing about how magic system is good - but would be even better if there was some more diversity in areas of debuffing enemy mage protections.
and pure attack-damage spells linear progression and usage. (or interactivity with the environment - which practically wasnt there - not to mention something like magicka magic variability and usefulness of its "spells on the fly" systems)
those kinds of comment were quite common about it after some time.
 

Gozma

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Sawyer is a kind of gamist extremist, basically.

Maybe (I think that term is pretty shitty) but his real thing is that he's very good at game criticism. He can write and think really cogently about game design and his designs are therefore always gonna be really articulate and explainable, with every little piece of it reasoned out in a way he can talk about. I think that ability makes him the perfect guy to take some design that's half great and half shitty and scrape off all the shit without getting confused and wasting what's good, and for dealing with "forced mediocrity" like a base of generic fantasy without getting mopey

And boy IE has a lot of shit and generic fantasy

Edit - Compare it to a guy like Sid Meier, who is/was famous as a lightning fast programmer and prototyper that basically iterates the hell out of designs that probably start out about as intellectual as a melody.
 
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"There are also single-issue gamers. I've seen gamers who aren't interested in an RPG unless there are dwarves in it and I've seen gamers who write off an RPG if there are firearms in it."

This is why we can't have nice things.

Its a genius move to make combat and non combat skills separate. Genius.
No, it's not. It's awful. It's just a band-aid fix for a bigger design issue.
 

hiver

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fuck no.

hah!
 

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