Arkane PREY - Arkane's immersive coffee cup transformation sim - now with Mooncrash roguelike mode DLC

[Ash]

Partly to blame is the lacking advance in gamedesign. Shooters, rpgs, action adventures and strategy games released in 2016 play pretty much like those that got released a few years ago.

Dude, what the fuck? Partly to blame is the decline in game design more than the lack of advance. Shooters, rpgs, action adventures and strategy games released in 2016 play pretty much like those that got released a few years ago but dumber and lacking in content.

Except it's not to blame, because the majority will happily buy and play Assassin's Creed seven because they lack standards, and as a result it will sell better than those older games ever did, just as the previous Ass. Creed games did, and all the other decline pumped out onto the market today.

 

[Siel]

Immersive sims have never been about difficulty nor how much 90s fonts were used in the UI. Arkane games are immersive sims even if it triggers your autism.

 

[Ash]

I never mentioned anything about fonts or difficulty. I said they were unworthy Immersive Sims. Meaning they're still Immersive Sims in some form, you cunt.
And yes, they have all been about difficulty, because notable difficulty is an inherent aspect of good game design for majority of game genres, such as survival horrors.
difficulty is at the core of the experience, because it means USING YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. Without it you're just mindlessly pressing buttons and clicking on things and are disjointed from the experience, i.e it's not Immersive.

Game and difficulty are almost two inseparable concepts, and that includes Immersive Sims.

 

[Siel]

I never mentioned anything about fonts or difficulty. I said they were unworthy Immersive Sims. Meaning they're still Immersive Sims in some form, you cunt.
And yes, they have all been about difficulty, because notable difficulty is an inherent aspect of good game design for majority of game genres, such as survival horrors.
difficulty is at the core of the experience, because it means USING YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. Without it you're just mindlessly pressing buttons and clicking on things and are disjointed from the experience, i.e it's not Immersive.

You talked about powers being a gimmick but have you ever played SS2?

Because you could:
- Regen health and mana
- Duplicate amno
- Reveal enemy location
- Launch projectiles at ennemies
- Be invisible
- Reveal all amno/hypo/medkits/logs around you
- Teleport

How is it any different than nuPrey?

 

[Doktor Best]

Partly to blame is the lacking advance in gamedesign. Shooters, rpgs, action adventures and strategy games released in 2016 play pretty much like those that got released a few years ago.

Dude, what the fuck? Partly to blame is the decline in game design more than the lack of advance. Shooters, rpgs, action adventures and strategy games released in 2016 play pretty much like those that got released a few years ago but dumber and lacking in content.

Except it's not to blame, because the majority will happily buy and play Assassin's Creed seven because they lack standards, and as a result it will sell better than those older games ever did, just as the previous Ass. Creed games did, and all the other decline pumped out onto the market today.

I was talking about a few years, not two decades. The modern popamole era was introduced around 2005, thats 11 years ago. People now grow tired of it because its the same shit over and over again, thats why kickstarter projects got so much support and people embrace indie games and retrogames more and more. Also, you have to consider that dumbed down leveldesign was not particulary a sentient design choice, but much more a necessity due to ram restriction of the last console generation, which is now a thing of the past. The videogame industry is currently in the beginning of an era of transition and that is a good thing if you ask me. Just look at Dishonored 2, which is an AAA title that actually turned out pretty decent as far as codex opinion goes, or Witcher 3.

 

[Ash]

I was talking about a few years, not two decades. The modern popamole era was introduced around 2005, thats 11 years ago. People now grow tired of it because its the same shit over and over again, thats why kickstarter projects got so much support and people embrace indie games and retrogames more and more

Fair enough.

Also, you have to consider that dumbed down leveldesign was not particulary a sentient design choice, but much more a necessity due to ram restriction of the last console generation, which is now a thing of the past.

Pure bullshit. Dishonored had decent level design. New Vegas had decent world/level design. Dark Souls had decent level design, and more. All of the previous generation. Good level design is just a dying/dead art. Levels are built in servitude to art direction, realism and accessibility now, not gameplay.

 

[Doktor Best]

Pure bullshit. Dishonored had decent level design. New Vegas had decent world/level design. Dark Souls had decent level design, and more. All of the previous generation. Good level design is just a dying/dead art. Levels are built in servitude to art direction, story and/or accessibility now, not gameplay.

And all of those games were faulted at release for their "outdated" graphics. I'm not saying it was impossible, i'm saying last generation consoles were so restricted that designers had to make a choice between graphic quality and size of map. They still do, dont get me wrong, but the difference is not as significant anymore.

I'm also not saying that all games will have better leveldesign from now on. The majority will still have tubelevels ofcourse. But there will be more variation and designers that actually try.

 

[Ash]

And all of those games were faulted at release for their "outdated" graphics. I'm not saying it was impossible, i'm saying last generation consoles were so restricted that designers had to make a choice between graphic quality and size of map. They still do, dont get me wrong, but the difference is not as significant anymore.

I'm also not saying that all games will have better leveldesign from now on. The majority will still have tubelevels ofcourse. But there will be more variation and designers that actually try.

GTAV, Skyrim, Far Cry 3, Metal Gear Solid 5, Read Dead Redemption were all considered acceptable or cutting edge graphically (for consoles), were they not? They're huge open world games. And you're telling me a console of that generation can't handle a traditional old school 3D level in terms of size like Doom or Deus Ex? Perhaps only if you absolutely clutter them with dynamic effects which simply isn't neccessary.

As I said, pure bullshit. Call of Duty style level design is in servitude to accessibility, budgeting, art direction and story.

 

[Doktor Best]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...lead-level-designer-labels-ps4s-8gb-ram-a-joy

GTA, Far Cry, Red Dead Redemption etc were all shooters, not rpgs. Shooters dont have as many objects you interact with (loot, nonhostile characters, cutscene triggers). How many buildings could you enter in GTA? Or RDR? What did Far Cry have in its levelstructure other than trees and enemies? Skyrim had loading times almost every single door and their dungeondesign was a fucking tube pretty much all the time.

 

[Infinitron]

lol why do you guys fall for CyberP thread derailing so easily

Yes, Ash, Prey has superpowers and it's going to be a very easy and exploitable game. Not sure how you go from that to a conversation about level design in immersive sims.

 

[Machocruz]

but was Dishonored a stealth game anyway?

A stealth game where out and out combat is just as viable, if not more so, than sneaking....

 

[Siel]

Yes, Ash, Prey has superpowers and it's going to be a very easy and exploitable game.

Not if aliens have the same powers as you.

 

[Ash]

lol why do you guys fall for CyberP thread derailing so easily

Yes, Ash, Prey has superpowers and it's going to be a very easy and exploitable game. Not sure how you go from that to a conversation about level design in immersive sims.

Infinitron, your bias and hard-on for me is unfitting for a moderator. I did not introduce level design to the thread. That was Docktor Best. Learn to read. I didn't introduce difficulty either. That was Deman.

I want more from my modern Immersive Sim than just difficulty. If one had experienced my work they'd know that, because I add new sim elements, new graphics, new RPG systems and more.
Modern Immersive Sims lack more than just difficulty.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, Ash, Prey has superpowers and it's going to be a very easy and exploitable game.

Not if aliens have the same powers as you.

They might have some powers but you'll be running circles around them, trust me.

Rule of gaming in 201x: There will never be a difficult AAA game. There can be interesting AAA games, but they will not be difficult.

 

[Siel]

I didn't introduce difficulty either. That was Deman.

Yeah, looks like another overpowered magic gimmick simulator.

There hasn't been a worthy Immersive Sim since Arx Fatalis back in 2002.

 

[Ash]

Rule of gaming in 201x: There will never be a difficult AAA game. There can be interesting AAA games, but they will not be difficult.

Now you're talking sensibly.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...lead-level-designer-labels-ps4s-8gb-ram-a-joy

I don't see how that's a valid counterpoint, because Dishonored had decent level design and levels that were bigger than you're average 90s game in size. Bigger than System shock 2 and Deus Ex, for example. I'm aware of the console's limitations, but it's no excuse for Call of Duty style level design. And that style of design won't go away either just because the newer generation has more ram.

I didn't introduce difficulty either. That was Deman.

Yeah, looks like another overpowered magic gimmick simulator.

Fair enough. I didn't introduce level design though.

 

[Ash]

GTA, Far Cry, Red Dead Redemption etc were all shooters, not rpgs. Shooters dont have as many objects you interact with (loot, nonhostile characters, cutscene triggers). How many buildings could you enter in GTA? Or RDR? What did Far Cry have in its levelstructure other than trees and enemies? Skyrim had loading times almost every single door and their dungeondesign was a fucking tube pretty much all the time.

Now why are you introducing the parameter that we have to be talking about RPGs? But fair enough:

I recall entering the majority of buildings having loading screens on Morrowind PC too.

Skyrim had shit linear dungeon design, by design. you think it can handle an open world but not an open dungeon? Especially when they're easy to break up with zoning/streaming as opposed to the open world. Yes, the dungeons are cluttered with more physics objects per area than the open world, but it's still no excuse.

Trust me, there is no technical excuse for garbage level design to the extent of Skyrim's Dungeons or Call of Duty's railroad levels. It's a design choice. Just how Skyrim's Kindergarten picture matching puzzles are a conscious design choice as opposed to a technical one.

I never mentioned anything about fonts or difficulty. I said they were unworthy Immersive Sims. Meaning they're still Immersive Sims in some form, you cunt.
And yes, they have all been about difficulty, because notable difficulty is an inherent aspect of good game design for majority of game genres, such as survival horrors.
difficulty is at the core of the experience, because it means USING YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. Without it you're just mindlessly pressing buttons and clicking on things and are disjointed from the experience, i.e it's not Immersive.

You talked about powers being a gimmick but have you ever played SS2?

Because you could:
- Regen health and mana
- Duplicate amno
- Reveal enemy location
- Launch projectiles at ennemies
- Be invisible
- Reveal all amno/hypo/medkits/logs around you
- Teleport

How is it any different than nuPrey?

Because Shock 2, Deus Ex and Arx Fatalis' powers had substance and were synergistic with the overarching design?

By gimmick I mean it seems to have become Arkane's main selling point while, as you rightfully point out, you could already do plenty things with powers in the older games. Meanwhile in those old gems ALL the systems and mechanics were something to celebrate rather than just the powers, and there were far more. In Dishonored I have fuck all positive to say about the game's systems except for what you can do with the powers, which also happen to be extremely overpowered so it's not strictly a good thing.

I suggest you go replay all those old classics because the design is exceptional, way above anything Dishonored has to offer. Thus, it is unworthy to me.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I'm liking the setting up via lore of a system where the non-alien weapons (the ones that don't put you at risk of being hunted by the Nightmare) are underpowered - tasers, non-lethal riot foam, a few handguns, rare shotguns that are locked away in security armouries, and (I assume, though it's not mentioned AFAIK) eventually getting a moderately powerful assault rifle and maybe some weak grenades. Establishing a strategic choice where you can play at a serious weapons disadvantage, trying to take on enemies with tools that were meant for non-lethal security, instead of military weapons, so that whilst you've got a strong motivation for not using the alien tech, it comes at the cost of much more difficult combat gameplay.

All moot if they don't balance the difficulty enough to make reliance on human weapons extremely difficult on at least the highest couple of difficulty settings. It will trivialise the whole premise if you can easily just play through with the human weapons, without ever being forced (not literally forced, but in the sense of having a bunch of massively difficult fights that will too hard for most players) ro make yourself a target for the Nightmare.

And unfortunately, difficulty is the thing where I have the least amount of trust in an AAA game, even one made by Arkane. May well be one of those games where you need to wait 12 months for mods to fix it. Difficulty mods are tough for this kind of game, because you can't just tweak the hp/damage numbers - you then have to go through and adjust the ammo/tools/repair drops to fit, fiddle with the resistances of individual classes of enemy, and so on (i.e. good difficulty mods won't be done within the first ouiple of months - they'll take anywhere up to a few years of revisions before they're balanced.

 

[Latelistener]

Seems like there will be multiple endings, which means the Arkane game will judge the player again.
How I'm tired of this moralfag stuff, where you can't do shit because you will get a bad ending (see Dishonored).

 

[Morgoth]

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...19-other-design-mantras-for-arkanes-prey.aspx

'F*** Ladders', And 19 Other Design Mantras For Arkane's Prey

With our cover story on Prey, we're sharing exclusive videos and articles throughout the month highlighting what makes the game stand out. While visiting the team at Arkane Studios in Austin, Prey's creative director Raphael Colantonio and lead designer Ricardo Bare walked us through 20 key design pillars behind Arkane's games overall and Prey specifically. The team represents the design pillars with the most appropriate screenshot from around the industry, so keep your eyes peeled.

Watch the video below to learn the design principles fueling Prey and why the team despises ladders.

 

[Siel]

WTF Arkane, putting Skyrim screenshots on your walls?

 

[vortex]

System shock station on the wall compensates everything.

 

[vivec]

Yes, Ash, Prey has superpowers and it's going to be a very easy and exploitable game.

Not if aliens have the same powers as you.

They might have some powers but you'll be running circles around them, trust me.

Rule of gaming in 201x: There will never be a difficult AAA game. There can be interesting AAA games, but they will not be difficult.

Dungon Demon soul/s? Of course they are not good games and the difficulty is artificial, but hell they are difficult and AAA.

 

[Ash]

'F*** Ladders

Statistics show the most deaths in certain games are when climbing ladders

Fuck your statistics.

As for depth vs complexity, A simple, loose estimation of a game's depth as perceived by the player is in how many times one replays it. I couldn't even manage a second playthrough of Dishonored. I wanted to like it. but it's neither particularly complex nor deep. And really, the two concepts go hand in hand. for example one or two systems can only have so much depth before you need another system for it to interact with, adding complexity.

Anyway, they're openly AAA popamole so I don't expect anything from them. I appreciate they don't string "hardcore" fans along and I appreciate their effort with Arx. I'll always love that game.

But the complexity, nobody wants it, not even the hardcore players.

Good thing not everyone has this mentality, otherwise we'd be stuck playing games with the complexity/depth of pacman.

To add complexity is to raise the bar, rather than being stuck bound to this imaginary level of complexity that "nobody wants" more of.

 

[Siel]

One or two systems can only have so much depth before you need another system for it to interact with, adding complexity.

Complexity is about presentation.
Having systems working together is what depth is. Complexity is when you don't explain how to make it work.