[Poll] Codex favorite mech from Battletech

[Dayyālu]

BT is a setting built to keep Giant Robots relevant.

Lostech, political evolution, the entirety of Clan society, are merely by-products of having to keep a wargame up. Everything else is secondary. Rulesets are built to keep a weapon of war that's hilariously impractical the top-dog.

I have to admire the fact that BT had the guts to Advance The Storyline (and it's less retarded that whatever Games Workshop did NO SHUT UP IT IS LESS RETARDED HAVE YOU SEEN WHERE WARHAMMER GOT) but most of it is..... eeeeh. The whole of the Inner Sphere is so tragically boring (Great Houses! That are American Mickey-Mouse versions of European\Asian societies but with Giant Stompy Robots!). The Clans at least give a refreshing spin by placing a truly alien society in the fray, Comstar\Wobbies are amusing versions of the old Asimovian concept of "tech cult" (and the Wobbies got so pseudo-Cyberpunk Cult Mechanicus that they became almost awesome). I'll never tire to repeat, if I had to be engaged in a science fiction setting one would prefer bioengineered warrior cults (Clans) VS cyborg religious fanatics (Wobbies) or the dreadfully badly written Inner Sphere shenanigans?

But again, all moot. We're in for the stompy robots.

Also, IlClan never.

That said, let's talk about the worst designs. I already give you a winner: Protomechs. Never had such a good idea got so fucked by bad art (the artist was literally left to do what he wanted with minimal supervision, and whatever he sent got okayed resulting in the abominations we see. No I'm not going to link any image it hurts seeing them.)

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well the general thing there is that as I've often mentioned BattleTech, small exceptions aside, has had absolutely abysmal art for most of its history. MWO and the new HBS illustrations are probably the first time it's look pretty nice overall.


But yea, the setting is an afterthought for the wargame and making 'mechs relevant, although FASA kinda sabotaged themselves there because they just didn't have the balls to make tanks completely outclassed every single time by 'mechs like the vidya have done (best example probs being how a Demolisher tank is not really a match for a Light 'mech in MW4Mercs), and further sabotaging this with the introduction of AeroTech and making the rules compatible. Pretty much ANYTHING that makes any sort of normal type of combined arms work out ends up undermining the setting because of how impractical BattleMechs are if you try to be too serious with the concept. You need that list of magical excuses reasons why this impractical weapon is the king of the future battlefield and why it can't be any more down to earth weapons.

Like if you want to introduce AeroTech as a spin-off to your game where everything revolves around awesome giant robots, you sort have no choice but to make the top dogs of any weight class equivalent of AeroSpace fighters and bombers be Land-Air 'Mechs so everyone remembers this setting is all about the giant robots and their magical powers. Otherwise people might start questioning why air superiority isn't more important than the giant robots (a similar fun example is the aircraft in MW4 for fly so slow I'm sure those delta wings just couldn't stay airborne; simply because 'mechs need to be able to blast them down).


EDIT: I would say tho that as a premise I prefer the Dune-inspired set-up of the feudal succession wars, the general issue is really just that the Great Houses are not exactly subtle when it comes to who are good and who are bad guys, and they're even less subtle with the Captain Ethnic stuff. I mean, I look at Stefan Amaris' face.

 

[Jason Liang]

The point of using mech warfare is to minimize casualties on the battlefield. Mechs make any sort of guerilla insurgency impossible.

Now, granted, the meat of the Battletech game is what happens when the Bulrathi manage to land on the planet in MoO or Stellaris, but again that's why in the BT setting it's anathema to fight with Jumpships or orbital bombardment. Mech warfare is an ethical form of warfare developed to minimize war atrocity.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

That's not really the case, the BattleMech just has no real ability to make guerilla war any less effective, especially if it were to be treated in a realistic sense because then it'd just be an impractical, extremely unusually vulnerable tank.

So we're back in that any kind of mecha will need some manner of magical powers if it's supposed to be the be all end all of warfare.


Moreover BattleTech sort of lacks the kind of important armwrenching as Comstar is no Spacing Guild so it can't really make a Great Convention make sense; Moreover the succession wars themselves clearly did cause massive destruction and the original boxed set has a long spiel about the descent to barbarism through endless wars.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

That said, let's talk about the worst designs. I already give you a winner: Protomechs. Never had such a good idea got so fucked by bad art (the artist was literally left to do what he wanted with minimal supervision, and whatever he sent got okayed resulting in the abominations we see. No I'm not going to link any image it hurts seeing them.)

Oh man, the Protomechs are hysterically terrible looking. Are we talking just looks or loadout and stuff too? Because there are some amazingly terrible stock loadouts that make you wonder if whoever came up with them actually played the damn game at all.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well generally speaking if you want to think of loadouts in BattleTech is to understand that the game never truly wanted to center around custom 'mechs, and this reflects how badly the balance breaks down when they enter the fray and continues to break down the more and more equipment options are added (albeit Targeting Computer + Pulse Lasers and Triple-Strength Myomer probably remain the peak individual step of borkerdness).

This is generally where you come to realize that the game was clearly envisioned as being played with battle values and stock 'mechs rather than using tonnage as the yardstick. Ie, the basic TR3025 Charger is roughly half to 75% the battle value of comparable tonnage. Though there you do see that the battle values are somewhat difficult to calculate because pound for pound Charger has the potential to heavily pay back its cost with interest because of how powerful it can be for dealing hand to hand combat damage thanks to its speed allowing it to wring out effect as per its name.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

I actually wasn't going to cite the Charger because low-hanging fruit and it was supposed to be retarded in the lore anyway. Was thinking more along the lines of hilariously undersinked machines like the Solitaire, over-engined monstrosities like the Dragon, and so on and so forth.

Still, if you want one of the worst cosmetic designs ever, look no further than the Bane in its initial TRO appearance. Shit looked like abstract art. Imp is an ugly motherfucker of a mech too.

 

[Axe Father]

My favorite 'Mech is the Owens. I'm a fan of the lighter machines and my other favorite is the Catapult, so make a light 'Mech with the same foward jutting cockpit/missile rack/reverse-joint leg getup and you're cooking with grease.

That said, let's talk about the worst designs. I already give you a winner: Protomechs. Never had such a good idea got so fucked by bad art (the artist was literally left to do what he wanted with minimal supervision, and whatever he sent got okayed resulting in the abominations we see. No I'm not going to link any image it hurts seeing them.)

Matthew Plog did some interesting Protomech redesigns. They only bear a superficial resemblance to the originals, but I think we can agree that it's a very good thing in this case.

Spoiler

A far cry from whatever the hell this thing is:

Spoiler

Battletech art really has been a shitshow for most of its history. Speaking of Plog though, I really like a lot of the things I've seen of his. I don't know when he first started doing art for BT but I remember seeing his Battle Armor illustrations in MechWarrior 3rd Edition a long ass time ago. They were pretty good from what I remember. That Elemental pic you posted is in there.

 

[Dayyālu]

EDIT: I would say tho that as a premise I prefer the Dune-inspired set-up of the feudal succession wars, the general issue is really just that the Great Houses are not exactly subtle when it comes to who are good and who are bad guys, and they're even less subtle with the Captain Ethnic stuff. I mean, I look at Stefan Amaris' face.

Thing is, the entire stuff is worse than the Dune Prequels. Sure, neo-feudal warfare can give you endless possibilities, but it's muddy and boring if you aren't invested even a tad. I mean, despite borked execution the Jihad is thematically far more interesting: tech cult goes insane, goes in a Nazi-like expansion spree because they didn't got what they wanted and requires a huge combined effort to be put down while tossing nukes and deploying crazy prototypes, Berlin 1945-style. Easy to explain, easy to sell.

Meanwhile, "my sister\father\clone tried to betray me but I counterbetrayed him and we have to get some random mercs to shoot the planet Randomius XIX" is a tad harder to sell. It's a matter of themes and tastes, I guess.

(And the Amaris thing was probably one of the most interesting and simple plotline they got up: upstart Noble becomes advisor of Young Emperor, kills Young Emperor, Old Imperial Soldier gets Revenge. Black&White and simple, and no need of "what racist stereotype against Germans\Chinese\Russians are we using today"?).

Matthew Plog did some interesting Protomech redesigns. They only bear a superficial resemblance to the originals, but I think we can agree that it's a very good thing in this case.

Got to his artist page, awesome redesigns with the lulz-worthy idea of "mass production re-designs".

Funny to imagine a Blood Spirit Tech Caste dude going "Nope. I'm not building this. Tell 'em we lost the blueprints and we built a "Production Model", right? I mean, have you seen this shit? Who the fuck is gonna die inside one of those abominations?"

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Got to his artist page, awesome redesigns with the lulz-worthy idea of "mass production re-designs".

Funny to imagine a Blood Spirit Tech Caste dude going "Nope. I'm not building this. Tell 'em we lost the blueprints and we built a "Production Model", right? I mean, have you seen this shit? Who the fuck is gonna die inside one of those abominations?"

Ah, Blood Spirit. Only clan less relevant to anything would probably be Fire Mandrill or Ice Hellion.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Funniest thing about Blood Spirit is that considering all Clans take their names from local wildlife and knowing how local wildlife naming convention goes...

ONE OF THE PLANETS THEY FOUND IS FUCKING HAUNTED

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Funniest thing about Blood Spirit is that considering all Clans take their names from local wildlife and knowing how local wildlife naming convention goes...

ONE OF THE PLANETS THEY FOUND IS FUCKING HAUNTED

Was under the impression that Blood Spirit isn't a reference to homeworld fauna but rather a reference to the nature of the Clans themselves and their bloodname autism. If there's seriously a fucking haunted planet in the Clan Homeworlds, that makes Far Country/Kaetatoa (or however the fuck that's spelled) seem reasonable. Jesus.

 

[Dayyālu]

Ah, Blood Spirit. Only clan less relevant to anything would probably be Fire Mandrill or Ice Hellion.

Was under the impression that Blood Spirit isn't a reference to homeworld fauna but rather a reference to the nature of the Clans themselves and their bloodname autism. If there's seriously a fucking haunted planet in the Clan Homeworlds, that makes Far Country/Kaetatoa (or however the fuck that's spelled) seem reasonable. Jesus.

Yeap, theoretically the Blood Spirits were the heralds of inter-clan cooperation (and the beast that has their name was a bat engineered as an insult). But yeah, the devs never had the foggiest idea what to do with the Homeworld Clans bar "they are uhmm.....there" until the Wars of Reaving, when they nuked everyone that they could not be bothered to rewrite. Always liked the Blood Spirits, ended up hating everything and everyone because Clan Society is retarded and the Inner Sphere is a bunch of deranged barbarians. But they where the biggest users of Protomechs, that's how it is.

ONE OF THE PLANETS THEY FOUND IS FUCKING HAUNTED

The WoB had Secret Wonder Weapons bases everywhere. Who knows, JumpSpace colonies or JumpSpace ghosts. Who the fuck knows, and we never will.

 

[oscar]

I've been thinking a lot about how Battletech would adapt to film and television over the past week.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

MY HOME PLANET

When I was younger I wanted a Battletech/Mechwarrior movie or something. Then I grew better acquainted with what Hollywood generally does to those sorts of franchises, and realized how little I actually wanted that to happen.

 

[Destroid]

MY HOME PLANET

When I was younger I wanted a Battletech/Mechwarrior movie or something. Then I grew better acquainted with what Hollywood generally does to those sorts of franchises, and realized how little I actually wanted that to happen.

80 minutes of this:

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

MY HOME PLANET

When I was younger I wanted a Battletech/Mechwarrior movie or something. Then I grew better acquainted with what Hollywood generally does to those sorts of franchises, and realized how little I actually wanted that to happen.

80 minutes of this:

Without a doubt the dumbest MW intro ever made.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

I don't know, the intro to 2 might be even dumber. I mean, it is far more entertaining, but none of the pilots in it seem to have any clue what they're doing. Especially the Summoner at the start who only just seems to have discovered the jump jet key.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

I don't know, the intro to 2 might be even dumber. I mean, it is far more entertaining, but none of the pilots in it seem to have any clue what they're doing. Especially the Summoner at the start who only just seems to have discovered the jump jet key.

Well, stupid shit committed in 2's intro:
1. That jumpjet stunt by Summoner 1 (though he may have possibly been trying to poptart over the injured Timby to blast the responding Timby? who knows)
2. Responding Timby autistically sticking to MGuns against Summoner 2 even when he almost certainly had something like, say, Streak SRMs in his loadout and even when his ERPPCs had almost certainly recycled
3. Responding Timby not seeing injured Timby and immediately fanning the area looking for whodunnit, instead staring at injured Timby like a dumbass until Summoner 1 JJs like a dumbass
4. Summoner 2 giving Responding Timby his back at one point
5. Summoner 2 technically breaking zellbrigen by breaking LOS, though zellbrigen is retarded so this is actually a SMART thing to do
6. Responding Timby standing there like an utter dipshit when his MGuns run dry instead of promptly throwing his machine into reverse to dance around the pillar a bit until he remembers the rest of his loadout
7. That unit insignia on the responding Timby sure as hell doesn't look like a Wolf or Falcon unit insignia that I remember, and given MW2 is about the Refusal War... wtf

Stupid shit committed in 4's intro:
1. All. Clan. Mechs. in the "good guys'" lance. I mean, yes, it looks to be a Davion base, so that can be explained I suppose.
2. Cougar not immediately breaking taxi routine and buggering the fuck out of that killzone
3. Shadowcat derping along facefirst into what is either an LRM salvo (which shouldn't be lethal) or an Arrow IV salvo (TAKE EVASIVE ACTION OR EJECT RIGHT FUCKING NOW)
4. Those aren't fucking neurohelmets what the fuck
5. Terrible acting
6. Mad Dog running to the fracas, stopping to look around dramatically with a full enemy lance present (who somehow don't seem to have picked him up on sensors)
7. "Bad Guy" Uziel at one point using PPC on a good guy unit in very close quarters (minimum range? what's that lol. this might be more a reflection on the retarded choice to do away with min. ranges on weapons altogether though)
8. Mad Dog getting radio silence on all channels, seeing a smoldering wreck of a base all around him, and deciding rather than trying to bugger off to 1. get reinforcements, 2. fight a running guerilla battle from range and play to his mech's strength, or something else fairly intelligent... fights a hopeless last stand using only his pulse lasers and fails to take a single enemy mech with him.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Honestly, though, I could find nitpicks even in 3's intro, which was the best of them.

1. Jag Timby doesn't use MGuns on infantry/vehicles as he advances on the city
2. Alan Mattila's Atlas has either an Autocannon or a MGun in the arm, which makes no sense
3. Jag Summoner ignores the Mad Dog getting a bead on him in favor of apparently standing there and gloating over the injured remaining Firefly piloted by Epona (though this is fairly believable with Smoke Jaguars)
4. Neither Timby nor Summoner seem to notice the Mad Dog or Atlas lurking in the city on their sensors (Atlas may have been powered down, but powered down = no comms IIRC)
5. Summoner completely ignores the two Fireflies until they put LRMs into him (since they hadn't engaged before then, though, this might be kind of believable)
6. Jag Timby stackpoles (this is technically entirely possible, I just hate stackpoling as a mechanic)

3 had the best voice acting in the entire series, I think.

 

[Black]

Sperg about this one too

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Sperg about this one too

1. No neurohelmets on the Hunchie pilot (Hardcase) and the Raven pilot (Panther)
2. Hunchie pilot "standing and delivering", possibly wasting precious AC20 ammo on an enemy that looks like it might be out of AC20 range altogether (hard to say?) instead of using cover/otherwise waiting for Jag to close to where the AC20 will really count (assuming it's supposed to be an HBK-4G here)
3. Since when do Hunchies have Full-Head Ejection systems?
4. Asking the Raven to be bait in that manner for an angry Jag is possibly asking for a dead Raven, though the Cent wouldn't have had the speed and the Commando might have actually been MORE fragile (checking armor values in Sarna now, Commando might be less fragile than the Raven actually because of the Raven's XL). The Cent might have still been the better choice for bait because better armor values, but the Cent's armament makes it a better choice for that first major backstab. Meh, hard to say. The Raven doing its best "fight me fgt" before running like crazy was kind of cute.
5. In the very beginning of the intro one of the Sparrowhawk (think that's a Sparrowhawk) aerotech fighters gets WAY too close to the dropship for comfort, if I were his CO I'd yell at him for hotdogging like a faggot.

Minor details aside MechCommander's intro was pretty decent, surprisingly decent acting (though the Charlie commander is a very meh actor, I think... something about the way he delivers his lines). Just needs proper neurohelmet props instead of fucking DragonBall scouters. And cooling vests, where are their cooling vests?

EDIT: Regarding the Raven's armor levels - depends heavily on which variant that's supposed to be. The RVN-4X had outstanding armor (but it also had JJs, which that Raven doesn't). Most likely it's supposed to be the RVN-3L, which ton-for-ton is more fragile than the Commando (and an awfully expensive mech to be using for bait). EDIT 2: Possibly a 2X, would explain lack of JJs and armor would be on par with the 4X.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Huh, just noticed Venture (Cent pilot) has no neurohelmet either.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Also just noticed muzzle flashes on the Mad Dog's arm weapons in the MW4 intro. So pulse lasers and MGuns (no way that thing has the tonnage for twin ACs). It's an Omni, so a non-standard config is more plausible (though they seriously fucked up the Mad Dog in MW4 in overall configuration) but the Omnipods on the MW4 Mad Dog are in the chin turret IIRC, making that impossible.

 

[Black]

The fact that a woman made colonel didn't bother you?