Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[TT1]

Probably easier than explaining THAC0.

How is THAC0 hard to explain?

Attack - Defense = X

You have to roll more or equal X, rolling a d20.

Only a retarded cannot understand this simple math.

If it's so good, why did they dump it in 3.0?

2.0 was TSR. 3.0 was WOTC, coming from Magic The Gathering success.


Sounds weird, but the math is clear: Attack - Defense = Thac0 - AC.

Its not "pretty dumb that lower AC is better". Its kinda obvious, actually. Attack - (- defense) = attack + defense. Its just simple math. 10 year old kids can do this.

People of humans sciences should be exterminated from humanity or sent to gulags.

 

[The Avatar]

Its not "pretty dumb that lower AC is better". Its kinda obvious, actually. Attack - (- defense) = attack + defense. Its just simple math. 10 year old kids can do this.

You're missing the point. It isn't that the math is hard- It's just simpler and faster to add your attack bonus to the roll. That's why 3.0 switched to that system and it's been that way ever since. The few people advocating for THAC0 are old grognards living in the past and who can't let go of their favorite rules they grew up with and can't comprehend that there are better systems out there.

 

[BING XI LAO]

How to make bad fighter in PoE in 3 easy steps
1) Give him high might and con
2) Sword and shield
3) Give him some good heavy armor

LOL. If true, then this whole system has been balanced all the way to the shitter.

Ladies, gentlemen, and... things, apparently, according to Obsidian ~narrative designer~ talent, an unknown warrior is reffered to with the 3rd person plural pronoun they.
LMAO:

I just realised what ligatures exist for. Their purpose is to convey the homosexual lisping of the writers.

 

[Neanderthal]

Well ladies and gentlemen, Codexians and cucks, the time has arrived for the Thal to state their opinion on Deadfire. Yes what follows is an exhaustive and in depth review of the Watchers adventures in the Deadfire archipelago, from Necktie to Pikachu. I won't be holding back or sparing spoilers so ready yourself because here we go:

Meh.

Thank you, please like, subscribe and donate to my Patreon.

 

[Shadenuat]

Its not "pretty dumb that lower AC is better". Its kinda obvious, actually. Attack - (- defense) = attack + defense. Its just simple math. 10 year old kids can do this.

You're missing the point. It isn't that the math is hard- It's just simpler and faster to add your attack bonus to the roll. That's why 3.0 switched to that system and it's been that way ever since. The few people advocating for THAC0 are old grognards living in the past and who can't let go of their favorite rules they grew up with and can't comprehend that there are better systems out there.

Additive percentages and fractions of numbers is good but comparing one number to another is bad cause grognards

Josh if you're going to hit dead horse at least take somewhat longer stick

Can someone ever explain to me - why do PoE defenders explaining how good the system is always end up bashing some 20-30 year old games/concepts instead?

The whole thing can't but remind me of how we russians handle critcism often.
- U probably should do something about your mortality rates
- Yeeea BUT USA invaded middle east!

- PoE has bad encounters
- Yeah well your Kangaxx is shit

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Because those 20-30 year old game systems are a useful frame of reference everybody is familiar with.

 

[Shadenuat]

That's a self defeating point because you basically admit this old 20-30 years shit still holds relevance and somehow threatens your new best shit.

- Well in this 1998 fighters would just auto attack, so we are going to add an ability or two (not a decent&unique melee system, not something inspired by more advanced melee systems in rpg - just an ability or two), which would instantly make our game so much better. We did well gentlemen. It is time to open the champagne and pat ourselves by the shoulders and a group hug. We fixed this old design.

- Also hit that thac0 thing. It's dead Jim but still hit it to be sure.

I always thought designers should appreciate old shit, break it down, see what works and how, and take some inspiration from it, not bash it with a shovel to the back of the head and throw dirt all over it to feel good about themselves. This behavior is pretty degenerate, and in the end you can just end up in the hole you dug for yourself, like PoE 1.0 did with it's everything-affects-everything spell system - an example of ignoring tradition just cause of your personal taste, and not real facts or playtesting.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nobody tried to follow up on the 20-30 year old shit until recently, so of course it still has relevance.

 

[Shadenuat]

D&D games did not end after BG you know.

The fact that they did dig up that old shit though, while constantly pointing out how bad a lot of the traditionalist/grognard things are, because of an easy niche and that sweet, sweet easy and ever reliable cash from grognards, is even more degenerate.

 

[The Avatar]

I always thought designers should appreciate old shit, break it down, see what works and how, and take some inspiration from it, not bash it with a shovel to the back of the head and throw dirt all over it.

Pillars is certainly inspired by D&D systems. The to-hit system is basically d20 expanded to d100- just substitute deflection for AC. Saving throws(fortitude, reflex, will) are the same. Of course they even added kits now in Pillars 2. I don't think there's a non-D&D game more inspired by D&D than Pillars of Eternity.

The damage percentage modifiers do add complexity, but I think that's okay because the system is only ever going to be played on a computer and never pen and paper so you don't have to worry about doing actual calculations. I think maybe the designers felt that it was too easy to min-max damage in d20 so they came up with that percent modifier system to make it more balanced.

 

[Shadenuat]

The damage percentage modifiers do add complexity, but I think that's okay because the system is only ever going to be played on a computer

I fundamentally disagree with this, at least in a system where you are supposed to make many choices and have tighter control of.

System should by default be intuitive enough for players to easily access the effectiveness of their characters. Computer may roll things for you, but it won't build your character for you. If calculation of a damage for hitting something with a dagger looks like 10-12*1+(0.2+0.1+0.36) you're trying too hard.

That not to mention just how retarded system with these damage ranges looks especially on low levels.

At that point you might just multiply whole math of the game by 100. At least then it would make a bit more sense with a usage of percentages. Even if it would end up looking like diablo or jrpg.

 

[aweigh]

anyone who thinks poe system is better than *any* version of d&d is delusional

 

[The Avatar]

Its better than 4th edition.

 

[Shadenuat]

smart move Josh. very smart. but we know who u are.

 

[fantadomat]

I always thought designers should appreciate old shit, break it down, see what works and how, and take some inspiration from it, not bash it with a shovel to the back of the head and throw dirt all over it to feel good about themselves.

If that was true by now we would have been playing some amazing rpgs,not all this dumbed down retarded shit we get.

 

[Lilura]

You can't pick "wrong" spells in IE games - because you always have all of them.

In IE every class is a well rounded package doing everything you need

What did I just read? I think you need to expand on this "thought process" that you've got going on here.

 

[Shadenuat]

What's so hard to understand?

IE games have way more traps that will make the game more difficult; like <...> plenty of useless spells

In PoE2, you pick spells as abilities per encounter, using ability points, and your priest can run around with 1 bad spell, while you spend your ability points on passives or smh.

In IE you gain all spells and if one is useless, you simply memorise another which is better for the encounter.

This is why spells like, say, protection from poison in Deadfire are never picked. They are too situational to be useful, so people never pick them on level up.

Same reason why specialist wizards in Deadfire are ass except Evoker. You always have use for damage spells, but otherwise you are simply left with a wizard who has (already low) spell selection cut in half again. Generally you just spam same (the only useful) spell 3 times per combat as a character like that - because that's usually the only good option you have.

Priests are p. full of spells like this. Ciphers have somewhat similar thing going about them.

I can make other examples, including one I made for fighter. In IE, fighters pack both offense and defence. In Deadfire, and I can back it up by numbers, a well built character can make 150 to 200 k damage per playthrough, while others would do 30 to 80 k. That's a pretty humongous difference, so I can't see how Deadfire is somehow immune to traps in builds.

 

[imweasel]

^
"You can't pick wrong spells" can be interpreted as "all spells are always useful".

An unfavorable translation in your mind from Russian to English appears to be the problem here.

 

[Shadenuat]

No, the problem is that people take the discussion out of context and are just happy to mash pretty buttons instead of reading the thread. Avatar understood it perfectly, pointing out to sorcerers, and I then followed by pointing out that every class in Deadfire is a sorcerer.

If anything, I actually enjoyed leaving it like that and waiting until people, instead of thinking for a second and connecting some dots would begin mashing their awesome buttons. Fun way of baiting lazy posters.

 

[Lilura]

In IE you gain all spells and if one is useless, you simply memorise another which is better for the encounter.

Yes, but you said, "You can't pick wrong spells in IE because you always have them."

Fact is, you can pick wrong spells and you don't always have them (the full spell range for each and every circle).

This is true even of BG2, where you start out pretty powerful and find yourself in a rich city. Sorcerers aside (we know they get to pick spells as they lvl - but you can still make a wrong choice, which hurts, let's bear that in mind), arcane spellcasters first have to find the spell scroll. Adventurer's Mart does not offer many key spell scrolls. You have to explore a whole city and its sprawling outskirts to find them (as loot and through other vendors, a few of which need to be opened up by doing quests or exploring at different times of the day). Then, there is a chance of failure in scribing it to the spellbook.

IWD and IWD2 are very stingy in spell scroll itemization. I have written about that more than I would care to admit.

PS:T, too. It can take a while to get TNO and Dak'kon going with good spell ranges per circle. Good luck finding the I WIN spells such as EED.

You also ignored your other statement: "In IE every class is a well rounded package doing everything you need"

Clearly, that's just bull.

 

[Shadenuat]

First of all, I don't see this as a problem.

Eventually, you will find all the spells. Saying that IE does not provide you with enough spells to push through is untrue.

Second, we're talking about shit on systemic level. And on systemic level, IE Priest has all spells, while Deadfire priest can have 1 spell and that's it.

You also ignored your other statement: "In IE every class is a well rounded package doing everything you need"

Clearly, that's just bull.

Not if you get out of your mind the idea of some classes being op than others.

In IE games every class is designed as a package of abilities and tools which will all eventually be available to you. Eventually, thief is going to get the full power of backstab and master most of the required skills, wizard would have all spells, and fighters have both offense and defence.

The biggest difference between one player and another would be mostly how he uses classes. My pure druid would solo whole trilogy using my knowledge of the spells. Anyone else's probably wouldn't. Yet the difference in "build" won't be huge at all.

How exactly is this a trap design, compared to Deadfire's design where you can pick an extremely overpowered thing (Whisper of Treason) or some shitty one?

The amount of choices increases the amount of mistakes you can make. In IE "good build" for a fighter is not dumping STR, finding some good weapons & armor that's it. In PoE it is about stats, armor you wear, abilities you pick, using or not using dual wielding (hint: use dual wielding), etc.

It's more fun to fine tune your character like this, but the more variables you include, the bigger would be the gap between this



and other characters.

So the fuck people continue to talk about "traps" in IE games IDK. It seems to me like the problem was always exaggerated to begin with. They are nearly not as "trapsy" as many other RPGs I know; in many ways they are actually very good as your first baby steps RPGs - I know, because I beaten them young and without any knowledge of what the fuck THAC0 is while being shit at english.

 

[Lilura]

lol, you have extended my argument dishonestly and exaggerated your statements to a ridiculous point: Russian or ex-Soviet bloc English literacy issue, I guess.

There is little point debating with the illiterati.

 

[Shadenuat]

Don't forget to write about soviet bloc literacy problems on your blog.

 

[Shadenuat]

Btw my blog hit 10k views https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/102118-difficulty-after-11-game-is-still-too-easy/
Donate to my patreon

includes 4.6% alcohol level of Tigranes as well and free cups with "Kangaxx was bad design" stickers.

Doubt it would change anything of course in main game, since they did not work on encounters more. Will see how DLCs would fair though, since they should be high level content.

 

[Lilura]

Mmm... 10k hits in one month for a game that just came out? Not bad, but my prime BG2 write-up gets that every week. Not bad for an 18 year old game.