Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[AwesomeButton]

For me removing armor damage resistances AND action speed maluses would be two huge steps backward.

I'm just pondering ideas. To be honest, messing with penetration would have no effect on combat pacing itself, because these are calculations happening behind the scenes anyway. And the thing I mostly want to do is achieve such pacing which doesn't require me to play 2/3rds of the combat paused. I think all the beauty of animations and effects is wasted when you watch 10 frames of an animation, and then pause for another half a minute.

 

[Theldaran]

D&D manages a bit of variation with monster damage dice and such. For example, in 4ED you had the "Soldier", "Skirmisher" or "Brute" type monsters -the one that hit once in a while but hit hard, the one that had high attack bonus so it hit often but with weak damage, and so on. That wasnt' half bad as far as 4ED went.

 

[AwesomeButton]

PoE does the same Xaurip Skirmisher/Priest/Champion, Lagufaeth Sidewinder/Redfin, etc. They have different base stats.

 

[fantadomat]

I see. Butthurt in what way?

That is just Orma 's way of showing her loneliness while proclaiming her search for deep ass penetrator.

 

[Theldaran]

PoE does the same Xaurip Skirmisher/Priest/Champion, Lagufaeth Sidewinder/Redfin, etc. They have different base stats.

Yeah POE is like the lost 4ED CRPG relic. That's why it sucks

 

[Parabalus]

If you remove the dmg reduction from armor, everyone will be equipped with the heaviest armor because they can and there is no penalty.

Who says every armor type will be available to every character class?

That's the best part of the PoE recovery system, you can choose on every character whether you want output or survivability, instead of brainless IE put the strongest allowed.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Telemetry says otherwise.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Shadenuat]

how they say Fort Deadlight plays

how it actually plays

 

[Abu Antar]

Good enough. Most rpgs don't even offer that.

 

[AwesomeButton]

What a genius system.

ps : You're working on a gameplay mod now SirAwesome ? General overhaul ?

I'll wait until the last DLC/big patch before I start actually working on anything. I still need time to play and analyze what I don't like.

I have to say it's generally good, the combat, but I don't like having to spam marked enemy/flames of devotion practically all the time. Add a couple of casters (wizard/cleric) whose spells also have to be spammed constantly until they run out of points, and it gets seriously tedious.

I also don't like that I can totally ignore consumables, except for health potions.

Speaking of brainless, Parabalus , starting every combat with a full pool of Power Source points and not having any incentive to save them, is also brainless.

On the other hand, some party members being inherently squishy, and needing to protect them, isn't all that brainless. I don't like everyone being able to wear every armor, I think the choice should be narrowed. If different armors have different damage reduction values for different damage types, like they do now, this adds another factor to consider before simply equipping the one with the biggest deflection bonus. It's all a question of balance

 

[MajorMace]

how they say Fort Deadlight plays

how it actually plays

Just like Hitman then

I'll wait until the last DLC/big patch before I start actually working on anything. I still need time to play and analyze what I don't like.

I have to say it's generally good, the combat, but I don't like having to spam marked enemy/flames of devotion practically all the time. Add a couple of casters (wizard/cleric) whose spells also have to be spammed constantly until they run out of points, and it gets seriously tedious.

I also don't like that I can totally ignore consumables, except for health potions.

Speaking of brainless, Parabalus , starting every combat with a full pool of Power Source points and not having any incentive to save them, is also brainless.

On the other hand, some party members being inherently squishy, and needing to protect them, isn't all that brainless. I don't like everyone being able to wear every armor, I think the choice should be narrowed. If different armors have different damage reduction values for different damage types, like they do now, this adds another factor to consider before simply equipping the one with the biggest deflection bonus. It's all a question of balance

Ok, wish you the best in your endeavour dude. I'm eager to see gameplay mods appear for this game, I feel like there's much space to improve on it with simple touches.

 

[aweigh]

Structuring equipment by making it Class-specific is definite incline in my book, but it requires designing so from the foundation.

One could give Class-specific bonuses for item types though, and that would be pretty cool. I also still think THAC and AC is the best kind of system and avoids all that DR/DT nonsense, but it only works with Class-specific items.

 

[Parabalus]

What a genius system.

ps : You're working on a gameplay mod now SirAwesome ? General overhaul ?

I'll wait until the last DLC/big patch before I start actually working on anything. I still need time to play and analyze what I don't like.

I have to say it's generally good, the combat, but I don't like having to spam marked enemy/flames of devotion practically all the time. Add a couple of casters (wizard/cleric) whose spells also have to be spammed constantly until they run out of points, and it gets seriously tedious.

I also don't like that I can totally ignore consumables, except for health potions.

Speaking of brainless, Parabalus , starting every combat with a full pool of Power Source points and not having any incentive to save them, is also brainless.

On the other hand, some party members being inherently squishy, and needing to protect them, isn't all that brainless. I don't like everyone being able to wear every armor, I think the choice should be narrowed. If different armors have different damage reduction values for different damage types, like they do now, this adds another factor to consider before simply equipping the one with the biggest deflection bonus. It's all a question of balance

Why do you fixate on the word inherently?

In PoE I can build my cipher with 3 CON 3 RES and 0 recovery armor, so I have to babysit him every fight, or go tankier with higher stats and plate armor, but offense penalties. It's output vs defense, in IE games there is none, casters are squishy (let's forget they are OP for a moment) and warriors are tanky, in PoE the system is richer and allows variation. Why do you hate player choice?

Not sure how per rest/per encounter ties into this, but I agree that the current system is garbage (and the IE system isn't any better).

For it to be meaningful in any way rests would need to be punishing/costly, but good luck implementing/balancing an extra like that - I think a more fruitful approach would be to nuke all per rests and balance combat around that.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Why do you fixate on the word inherently?

In PoE I can build my cipher with 3 CON 3 RES and 0 recovery armor, so I have to babysit him every fight, or go tankier with higher stats and plate armor, but offense penalties. It's output vs defense, in IE games there is none, casters are squishy (let's forget they are OP for a moment) and warriors are tanky, in PoE the system is richer and allows variation. Why do you hate player choice?

I want to be more deterministic about health points for character classes as well.

In this world, either you hate fun, or you hate player choice. Choose your side.

Every class getting the same +3hp/level boost to max health takes away from the uniqueness of character classes.

More generally, my observation is that the game is designed so that party composition is pretty dumb-proof - you can swap party members of different classes quite freely and you won't make the game unplayable or even significantly harder for yourself. But I want bad builds to be possible again, and I want bad party compositions to be possible again. Or at least I want to try to make them possible. For this to happen, some of the "freedom", which in my eyes is just "freedom to make meaningless choices" will be lost. This is the tradeoff, but there is always a tradeoff whatever you change in this regard. I'd like to see rules where some character classes complement each other more than they do now (as far as I can see).

 

[AwesomeButton]

Not sure how per rest/per encounter ties into this, but I agree that the current system is garbage (and the IE system isn't any better).

We've been over this - the IE system lets you rest spam if you should wish to. Deadfire rest-spams automatically for you, even if you don't wish to. Thus the IE system is better in my book.

As an added bonus, Deadfire's automatic rest-spamming relieves the designers of the need to consider the player's varying resources at the start of combat, when designing encounters. Making life easier for the designer instead of the game more involving for the player. Modern game design.

For it to be meaningful in any way rests would need to be punishing/costly, but good luck implementing/balancing an extra like that - I think a more fruitful approach would be to nuke all per rests and balance combat around that.

Hehe, who is the one who "hates player choice" now? :D

 

[Alpan]

More generally, my observation is that the game is designed so that party composition is pretty dumb-proof - you can swap party members of different classes quite freely and you won't make the game unplayable or even significantly harder for yourself. But I want bad builds to be possible again, and I want bad party compositions to be possible again. Or at least I want to try to make them possible. For this to happen, some of the "freedom", which in my eyes is just "freedom to make meaningless choices" will be lost. This is the tradeoff, but there is always a tradeoff whatever you change in this regard. I'd like to see rules where some character classes complement each other more than they do now (as far as I can see).

Bad builds are absolutely possible right now. It's just that there are fewer outright noob traps -- inferior choices are more obvious than in the IE games, and even then, in PoE the player is penalized not for making an outright bad choice, but because the choices made are not synergistic with each other. So it's not clear to me that what you're suggesting will help in making meaningful choices. Making encounters more difficult or even tinkering with the base numerical progression of the game -- consider, for instance, changing the hit-graze-miss thresholds or reducing the accuracy gained per level -- will likely yield more fruit.

 

[Parabalus]

Why do you fixate on the word inherently?

In PoE I can build my cipher with 3 CON 3 RES and 0 recovery armor, so I have to babysit him every fight, or go tankier with higher stats and plate armor, but offense penalties. It's output vs defense, in IE games there is none, casters are squishy (let's forget they are OP for a moment) and warriors are tanky, in PoE the system is richer and allows variation. Why do you hate player choice?

I want to be more deterministic about health points for character classes as well.

In this world, either you hate fun, or you hate player choice. Choose your side.

Every class getting the same +3hp/level boost to max health takes away from the uniqueness of character classes.

More generally, my observation is that the game is designed so that party composition is pretty dumb-proof - you can swap party members of different classes quite freely and you won't make the game unplayable or even significantly harder for yourself. But I want bad builds to be possible again, and I want bad party compositions to be possible again. Or at least I want to try to make them possible. For this to happen, some of the "freedom", which in my eyes is just "freedom to make meaningless choices" will be lost. This is the tradeoff, but there is always a tradeoff whatever you change in this regard. I'd like to see rules where some character classes complement each other more than they do now (as far as I can see).

You mean +3DEF/level right? HP/level is already different for each class and averaged for multis.

You can def make bad builds, try playing with 5 glass cannon ranged characters compared to a more balanced composition.

Not sure how per rest/per encounter ties into this, but I agree that the current system is garbage (and the IE system isn't any better).

We've been over this - the IE system lets you rest spam if you should wish to. Deadfire rest-spams automatically for you, even if you don't wish to. Thus the IE system is better in my book.

As an added bonus, Deadfire's automatic rest-spamming relieves the designers of the need to consider the player's varying resources at the start of combat, when designing encounters. Making life easier for the designer instead of the game more involving for the player. Modern game design.

For it to be meaningful in any way rests would need to be punishing/costly, but good luck implementing/balancing an extra like that - I think a more fruitful approach would be to nuke all per rests and balance combat around that.

Hehe, who is the one who "hates player choice" now? :D

Both systems are bad because there is no gameplay mechanic around resting.

What do you get from not rest spamming in IE? Fun and a sense of smug satisfaction. It's a player imposed challenge to salvage the garbage system.

For the rest system to be meaningful in Deadfire there would have to be a finite amount of rest resources (total in-game), so you can actually lose the game, in addition to area limited resting for the tactical challenge. If you can implement this and balance it properly it would be much better than axing everything, ofc, but it seems a bit much for you to handle alone, I'd like something playable.

 

[BING XI LAO]

How about an onscreen counter that pops up every time you rest and tells you how many times you've rested in the playthrough. Above certain thresholds it could also call you a "FAGGOT!!!!" etc

 

[AwesomeButton]

You mean +3DEF/level right? HP/level is already different for each class and averaged for multis.

Defences too, but the difference in HP progression which was there in PoE and is the same in Deadfire isn't that noticeable.

You can def make bad builds, try playing with 5 glass cannon ranged characters compared to a more balanced composition.

You're mixing bad builds and bad party composition here. Ok, I'll assume bad builds are possible, so much the better.

What do you get from not rest spamming in IE? Fun and a sense of smug satisfaction. It's a player imposed challenge to salvage the garbage system.

I don't know, why play videogames? The good feeling of achievement is one reason. Even if someone is getting just that, it's his way of playing. "Player imposed challenge" is your way to look at it. The other side of that coin is "Abusing this mechanic is not an intended way for the player to behave, and a built-in cheat".

 

[prodigydancer]

One thing I don't like very much is that [Honest] now stands for "being a complete asshole for no reason at all" most of the time. In PoE1 they handled it better.

 

[Baptismbyfire]

Fukkk... what's with the horrible overpompous writing from the very beginning. That description of the fat, old, wrinkly man in the beginning before character creation.... Made me turn off the game in utter disgust at the shitty writing.

 

[aweigh]

Personally I think the entire rest issue is easily mediated by simply making all dungeon areas flagged with no rest possible. In Wizardry resting was restricted to town only and I find that is optimal, but Wizardry didn't have 5-minute loading screens every two meters.

 

[2house2fly]

The current system is a classic sawyerist half-measure. They should have leaned all the way into per-encounter rules, eliminated permadeath and camping entirely, had injuries stack infinitely, and only let you rest at an inn or on your ship

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Personally I think the entire rest issue is easily mediated by simply making all dungeon areas flagged with no rest possible.

You mean before all enemies eliminated. Because I don't see any reason why my party should not rest in place which was purged from all enemies on all floors.