Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[rusty_shackleford]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

You can't even define what a god is, yet you assert they aren't gods.

 

[ArchAngel]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

You can't even define what a god is, yet you assert they aren't gods.

And why do you not answer any questions? I guess I will then copy your tactics.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

You can't even define what a god is, yet you assert they aren't gods.

And why do you not answer any questions? I guess I will then copy your tactics.

How did Rymrgand become a god?

 

[Delterius]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

So you agree they act like greek gods, that's why you changed the subject?

 

[Haplo]

This ended up as 30+ hours of doing a lot of sidequests. I got a bunch of levels but very little money and I was confused how I will ever be able to buy 100k ship that was offered right there.

You don't need to buy the 100k ship. You only need the best hull and sail upgrades if you want to do the main quest factionless AFAIR - but that still doesn't require you to buy a very expensive ship.
The 35k Dhow is more then good enough to conquer all seas.
I'd argue that buying the most expensive ships is wasteful, as the Principi quest gives you an opportunity to comandeer an awesome galleon-class ship, while the Rauatai questline also gives to an opportunity to get a new... vessel.
Those are generally late-game, but its not like you NEED those ships before (and at least in case of Principi, you can still back off and go with another faction).

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah smaller ships is also harder to hit so Dhow hits a perfect balance.

 

[ArchAngel]

This ended up as 30+ hours of doing a lot of sidequests. I got a bunch of levels but very little money and I was confused how I will ever be able to buy 100k ship that was offered right there.

You don't need to buy the 100k ship. You only need the best hull and sail upgrades if you want to do the main quest factionless AFAIR - but that still doesn't require you to buy a very expensive ship.
The 35k Dhow is more then good enough to conquer all seas.
I'd argue that buying the most expensive ships is wasteful, as the Principi quest gives you an opportunity to comandeer an awesome galleon-class ship, while the Rauatai questline also gives to an opportunity to get a new... vessel.
Those are generally late-game, but its not like you NEED those ships before (and at least in case of Principi, you can still back off and go with another faction).

I know but I wanted to try Naval combat a bit and doing that with a small ship didn't work. Later I was swimming in money so going all into buying all best stuff was not a problem. With that and having everyone in Superior (and some Legendary) gear I still had 300k extra by the end of the game.
I never finished the Principi quest, I stopped where that lady pirate asked me to murder the other dude. My team was already lvl 20 and I just wanted to finish the game with my chosen faction (Huana). Although I did want to murder the ghost ship and see if they get pissed off when I tell them I already cleared their island of dead my want to finish the game already was greater.
I will probably do another run on PC in the future and go pirate faction route and just be the most Chaotic Neutral I can (including making fun of gods and everyone all the time).

 

[ArchAngel]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

You can't even define what a god is, yet you assert they aren't gods.

And why do you not answer any questions? I guess I will then copy your tactics.

How did Rymrgand become a god?

I am still waiting for your to answer my question about Zeus before I answer more from you. As that "illithid" in the game says, an answer for an answer.

 

[Tygrende]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Imagine you were presented irrefutable evidence that the clearly existing christian/muslim/jewish/whatever "omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe" type gods that everyone within the world worship are not only the greek "just very powerful dudes that are just as much if not more fallible than humans" type of gods, they were actually created by humans a long time ago and are basically AI that is incapable of acting outside of a hardcoded set of values regardless of context.

Some people probably wouldn't care, but some would care a great deal. Even Eothas in Deadfire is just acting within his hardcoded role of god of rebirth/renewal. Greek gods were just too prideful to admit they fucked up most of the time, PoE gods are all literally incapable of objective judgement, reflection, etc.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Imagine you were presented irrefutable evidence that the clearly existing christian/muslim/jewish/whatever "omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe" type gods that everyone within the world worship are not only the greek "just very powerful dudes that are just as much if not more fallible than humans" type of gods, they were actually created by humans a long time ago and are basically AI that is incapable of acting outside of a hardcoded set of values regardless of context.

Some people probably wouldn't care, but some would care a great deal.

False premise, the deities in the pillows world aren't presented as omnipotent an Abrahamic God but much closer to Greek gods.

It would be a big deal to Abrahamic God worshipers because it fundamentally undermines their interpretation of their God. To Greeks, it would just be semantics.

 

[Tygrende]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Imagine you were presented irrefutable evidence that the clearly existing christian/muslim/jewish/whatever "omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe" type gods that everyone within the world worship are not only the greek "just very powerful dudes that are just as much if not more fallible than humans" type of gods, they were actually created by humans a long time ago and are basically AI that is incapable of acting outside of a hardcoded set of values regardless of context.

Some people probably wouldn't care, but some would care a great deal.

False premise, the deities in the pillows world aren't presented as omnipotent an Abrahamic God but much closer to Greek gods.

It would be a big deal to Abrahamic God worshipers because it fundamentally undermines their interpretation of their God. To Greeks, it would just be semantics.

They are not presented as human-made AI either. Greek gods were neither human-made nor AI. Greek gods were also presented as being created before humanity and (together with a titan, which was was basically just another type of god) creators of humanity themselves.

 

[Delterius]

How did Rymrgand become a god?

I think it's cool that Rymrgand claims to be somehow older and more primal than the other gods, and also that nobody seems to question that. Every other god except Berath seems to abhor Rymrgand. So you know the setting still has some mysteries to it. I think one of the clues is in the SSS DLC, where you interact with a ancient avatar of Galawain's and you can feel like its powers are akin to that of Chanters. Another clue is in Woedica's patched in conversation, where she claims that when the gods came into being they adopted the forms of some of Eora's most prevalent myths, and then squashed all the others.

What this tells me is that maybe the Gods weren't just put together like golems. They were summoned. Chanters use magic to re-enact the myths and folklore of the cultures they know, thereby summoning ghosts or storms. The genocidal sacrifices that Engwith engineered were like a massive chanting. That way Rymrgand could be something old, older than Engwith or any other high minded ideal. Or he was summoned to represent that part of the psyche. Or both. This also tracks with how the gods used to have real physical bodies and didn't always exist in the Beyond. Same with how the beyond used to be this chaotic emptiness and was only turned into the Wheel by the Engwithans themselves. The gods of Eora were fashioned out of the collective unconsciousness of all intelligent life as well as the chaotic substance of the Beyond, the same soul magic that powers everything in the setting.

I also like how we got over discussing wether things are RPGs and started discussing wether the Gods are Titans or Demiurges and whatnot.

 

[muds_animal_friend]

I played through this game from start to finish without reading a single line of text that wasn't in the quest journal. Not one single line. Life is too short to waste on shitty RPG writing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

claims to be

According to the writers, he's different.
His origin isn't confirmed anywhere, but yes, he's not the same as the others.

But yet he isn't presented as more powerful or above the others in the pantheon. More mysterious, perhaps, but not greater.

 

[Delterius]

Too bad AVOWED is set in sholazar basin. Hopefully the end of the storms in Ondra's mortar means that the weird group of abrahamics just beyond it will make an appearance anyhow.

 

[HammyTheFat]

How did Rymrgand become a god?

I think it's cool that Rymrgand claims to be somehow older and more primal than the other gods, and also that nobody seems to question that. Every other god except Berath seems to abhor Rymrgand. So you know the setting still has some mysteries to it. I think one of the clues is in the SSS DLC, where you interact with a ancient avatar of Galawain's and you can feel like its powers are akin to that of Chanters. Another clue is in Woedica's patched in conversation, where she claims that when the gods came into being they adopted the forms of some of Eora's most prevalent myths, and then squashed all the others.

What this tells me is that maybe the Gods weren't just put together like golems. They were summoned. Chanters use magic to re-enact the myths and folklore of the cultures they know, thereby summoning ghosts or storms. The genocidal sacrifices that Engwith engineered were like a massive chanting. That way Rymrgand could be something old, older than Engwith or any other high minded ideal. Or he was summoned to represent that part of the psyche. Or both. This also tracks with how the gods used to have real physical bodies and didn't always exist in the Beyond. Same with how the beyond used to be this chaotic emptiness and was only turned into the Wheel by the Engwithans themselves. The gods of Eora were fashioned out of the collective unconsciousness of all intelligent life as well as the chaotic substance of the Beyond, the same soul magic that powers everything in the setting.

I also like how we got over discussing wether things are RPGs and started discussing wether the Gods are Titans or Demiurges and whatnot.

It's an interesting thought.

Is Rymrgand larping as being older than the others because that's what his worshipers expect and therefore that's what he is - in much the same way that the other gods incorporated various aspects of other culture's legends/deities, or did the Engwithans fuck up and get things wrong and Rymrgand actually absorbed something that was around long before they ever thought to make their own gods?

They had their civilization wide spaz out after finding out there were no gods with their soul magic/magitech, but who's to say that they just didn't want to be discovered by a bunch of soul autists?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think Avowed got Rymgrand'd.

 

[Delterius]

I think Avowed got Rymgrand'd.

the god of entropy was a metaphor for de-ownership

 

[S.torch]

Ok after finishing the game let me leave some words about it.
Story started interesting and I chose to play a character that kept the secret in first game and would be mostly lawful and mostly good. First island felt like starting dungeon of BG2 where you are stuck until you find a way out. After that you are let out to a huge map looks a bit terrifying. I started to explore a bit, noticed it is mostly tiny events or maps and decided to go for one of the known places, Fort Deadlight or Nekataka. On my way to Fort D I was waylaid by bandits (read pirate ship) and got my ass handed to me so I went to Nekataka instead.
This ended up as 30+ hours of doing a lot of sidequests. I got a bunch of levels but very little money and I was confused how I will ever be able to buy 100k ship that was offered right there.
Then I went back to the sea and started doing bounties and taking loot of beaten ships and suddenly I started to have more money. I finally went to do the main quest at lvl 12 or so and found it easy. Funny how they got this whole subquest to beat nagas with cannon but it is like 6 of them and I could faster beat then directly. To fast forward, I do subquests or I do sea battles 99% of the time and do main quest rest of 1%.

Now let me talk about main quest. I will spoil it all so if you have not played this game yet skip this.
So basically Eothas wants to break the machines ancient people made to create the cycle of death and rebirth because he thinks kith (people) will figure out somethiing better when they are desperate. Or they will go into oblivion.
And they only got one more generation to do it. The main problem is that at best they can figure out a better machine that brings back souls to newborns so what does he really accomplish?! Or what, does he expect humans to turn everyone into automatons with soul energy that will then never go into Beyond? Or maybe kith create same/similar machines but no Gods this time or tell everyone they are not real Gods?! How is that not accomplished by just leaving it as it is now but just revealing to everyone there are no true Gods?!
People that want to believe will not have their mind changed anyways, all new babies being born as hollowborn will be seen as punishment of existing gods.

And he even tells you, it cannot go to the way it was before these gods were created as they broke how that worked naturally. So he basically created big timer on all life that at best will return the world to similar state it was before he broke it?! The FUCK!?

A game from people that don't like Fantasy has entities that act without logic. Why are you giving it so much thought when the answer is very clear.

 

[Maculo]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

Not to split hairs, but if the Eoran gods are amalgamations of millions of souls, does that really make them AI?

Returning to the Greek gods for a moment, Zeus and the other Olympians were neither the creators of the world nor the first set of ruling gods. They killed/banished their predecessors and claimed the mantle of most violent assholes on the block.

 

[Tygrende]

I already told you. They were created by humans, they are not different than a very powerful computer or a battleship. They are not smarter, or wiser or omnipotent, that is all very clear once you get to talk to them. As Eder says, they act like bickering children.

So they act exactly like say... greek gods?

Was Zeus created by humans using some technology or magical process?

the greeks had a damn word for it
https://www.britannica.com/topic/apotheosis

How did Zeus become a god? And that process does not create God or Gods, just powerful humans. And sure some people called them Gods, but so do many on Eora.
It does not change the fact they are just powerful beings but still very limited and act like humans

Not to split hairs, but if the Eoran gods are amalgamations of millions of souls, does that really make them AI?

Returning to the Greek gods for a moment, Zeus and the other Olympians were neither the creators of the world nor the first set of ruling gods. They killed/banished their predecessors and claimed the mantle of most violent assholes on the block.

They are not AI in the literal sense but I think it's a pretty good term for them considering how utterly incapable of acting outside of their assigned personality they are, regardless of context. Eothas as a god of renewal/rebirth is willing to risk the death of all life forever just to stick with his theme and they're all like this.

 

[Maculo]

I got the opposite impression. The gods were acting outside their assigned personalities, which is why Thaos kept having to step in and clean up their messes. By the end of PoE 1, the system was going off the rails: Ondra dropped a moon and ko’d another god (I recall she showed doubt/remorse over it); Woedica, the goddess of law, was willing to break any law to remain in power; Eothas was ready to burn it all down; Skaen joined with Woedica; and Galawain/Magran thought it was inevitable for civilization to progress. If I remember the court of stars correctly, the gods were divided on their own purpose, and whether it was right to empower Woedica to scare people back into faith. If anything, they are too human.

 

[Delterius]

Is Rymrgand larping as being older than the others because that's what his worshipers expect and therefore that's what he is - in much the same way that the other gods incorporated various aspects of other culture's legends/deities, or did the Engwithans fuck up and get things wrong and Rymrgand actually absorbed something that was around long before they ever thought to make their own gods?

I think it's possible it could be both. Rymrgand might be old and primal but who's to say he always existed in this current form? If my thesis of mass chanting is correct, the 'summoning' of the Gods drew from what already existed in the beyond. The 'creation' of Rymrgand could just as well have been the empowerment of something that was already there.

The Engwithan gods claim that the world was much more filled with suffering before the Engwithans created the Wheel. Soul sickness and malformations abounded because the Beyond was chaotic and turbulent. I can imagine such a world would be full of souls who'd yearn for the end times, for release. And that something of Rymrgand always lurked in the collective psyche of people.

I got the opposite impression. The gods were acting outside their assigned personalities, which is why Thaos kept having to step in and clean up their messes. By the end of PoE 1, the system was going off the rails: Ondra dropped a moon and ko’d another god (I recall she showed doubt/remorse over it); Woedica, the goddess of law, was willing to break any law to remain in power; Eothas was ready to burn it all down; Skaen joined with Woedica; and Galawain/Magran thought it was inevitable for civilization to progress.

Not only was Eothas ready to burn it all down, you see in Beast of Winter that his story is of character development. He goes from benevolent god, to ruthless conquering king, to martyr. He's still Eothas, he still believes in roughly the same things. But if the gods were rigid AIs then they wouldn't be capable of that sort of change.

I think the inflexibility of the Gods comes more from the fact that they act like they are playing a match of Dominions. If Eora is a boardgame then everything is zero-sum. No wonder they can't cooperate. They mistrust one another and all the mortals who serve them.

 

[Tygrende]

I got the opposite impression. The gods were acting outside their assigned personalities, which is why Thaos kept having to step in and clean up their messes. By the end of PoE 1, the system was going off the rails: Ondra dropped a moon and ko’d another god (I recall she showed doubt/remorse over it); Woedica, the goddess of law, was willing to break any law to remain in power; Eothas was ready to burn it all down; Skaen joined with Woedica; and Galawain/Magran thought it was inevitable for civilization to progress. If I remember the court of stars correctly, the gods were divided on their own purpose, and whether it was right to empower Woedica to scare people back into faith. If anything, they are too human.

I'd say they are all still acting within their set personalities regardless of circumstances and that's the problem, they're starting to take this too far with zero capability to act differently. Like the hypothetical paperclip maximizer AI that eventually transforms all of earth into paperclip manufacturing facilities. Ondra dropping a moon is her going to far with her theme of forgetting, Woedica trying to subjugate all the other gods is her going to far with her theme of rulership, etc. Eothas didn't change at all either, all of his actions are just escalating attempts at renewal/rebirth.

 

[Popiel]

I always had a somewhat different impression. System which Engwithans made worked like a clockwork overdesigned into pure perfection, that is: system proved itself to be too perfect. Gods were clearly designed, initially, as a functioning pantheon which would accommodate kin of every kind. There was a goddess of ruling, monarchs and of law in the same way in which there was a god of the downtrodden, the oppressed and hate social deficiencies could bear. There was even a rather typically evil god, at least I presume that Rymrgand was designed to fill that niche. It was all supposed to work out perfectly. And it did. It just so happened that, let’s say, primal distinguishing characteristics of each of the gods were much more potent than Engwithans initially envisioned them. Skaen allying with Woedica in PoE1 is a clear-cut example of this: it’s perfectly and fully logical for Skaen to ally with fallen and beaten Woedica, because that’s precisely the thing which opposes the current system in the most fundamental and definitive way. And Skaen is a god of opposing the system. Almost all the other cases of interactions between gods exhibit this flaw in the design. Engwithans did too good of a job. This, when you consider that gods are made from souls of kin, that is, that it’s natural for them to resemble kin in at least some way, eventually spiralled completely out of control. No matter how Thaos sees this he failed utterly, as of PoE1 he’s unable to stop the gods from clashing with each other and waging conflicts bore out of their designed core programming.

Of course, the matter is in all more complicated than that, all the mysteries introduced mainly in addons for PoE2 are of course interesting, but I don’t think that what we hear from Thaos directly and what he implies is wrong. Gods were not summoned from some distant place, gods were crafted to fill very specific, already existing mythological roles and they did and do just that.