Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[AwesomeButton]

A bird race-traitor.

 

[hivemind]

Can black pipo stop stealing trans representation. Thanks.

 

[hivemind]

Sawyer is my white guilt liberal not yours!!

 

[TedNugent]

Just a thought - I decided to play around with shields with the "counts as offhand weapon" property, of which there are three in the game.

I noticed that, with the two weapon style, I have a recovery time of 3.2 on both of my weapons compared to Eder with a normal shield at 5.1 seconds.

That is a total reduction for your main hand weapon of 37% on your recovery time, or just under two seconds.

It obviously is not as good as having two weapons, but it would be tough to find a single shield enchantment that compares to that in terms of offense, and I also gain the deflection and engagement bonus. I like to think it makes my player character more balanced offensively rather than being a brick just because he is carrying a shield. It is also vastly more impactful than, say, a dex bonus.

I think the shield penalties are quite high otherwise, with losing the accuracy bonus from 1 hand on top of the accuracy penalty, plus having lower base damage and penetration compared to a two hander. If nothing else, my main hand now attacks considerably faster on top of +1 engagement.

I just wish the shield quality enchantments also affected the damage and penetration of the shield as well. Magran's flame wouldn't be a bad weapon if it had at least 10 penetration - alas, it only has 7 penetration.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I just love Shield Wall in Pathfinder so much that shields in other games are going to need to impress me more.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It took a fair bit to get used to the different combat pacing of Deadfire from PoE, as well as changes like only getting 1 spell to start.

After all that, I just realized that the entire affliction system was reworked in Deadfire and some of them are now really great and some are basically useless and this has no relationship to how useful they were in the first game.

 

[Yosharian]

Some of the best shields are extremely powerful defensively though

 

[Haplo]

Just a thought - I decided to play around with shields with the "counts as offhand weapon" property, of which there are three in the game.

I noticed that, with the two weapon style, I have a recovery time of 3.2 on both of my weapons compared to Eder with a normal shield at 5.1 seconds.

That is a total reduction for your main hand weapon of 37% on your recovery time, or just under two seconds.

It obviously is not as good as having two weapons, but it would be tough to find a single shield enchantment that compares to that in terms of offense, and I also gain the deflection and engagement bonus. I like to think it makes my player character more balanced offensively rather than being a brick just because he is carrying a shield. It is also vastly more impactful than, say, a dex bonus.

I think the shield penalties are quite high otherwise, with losing the accuracy bonus from 1 hand on top of the accuracy penalty, plus having lower base damage and penetration compared to a two hander. If nothing else, my main hand now attacks considerably faster on top of +1 engagement.

I just wish the shield quality enchantments also affected the damage and penetration of the shield as well. Magran's flame wouldn't be a bad weapon if it had at least 10 penetration - alas, it only has 7 penetration.

That is great if you're spamming active ability attacks - either Full Attacks or Primary. Also nice for Ripostes, I guess.
But if you're attacking passively, your attack speed might be a lot higher, BUT your every second attack might only tickle the enemy, effectively lowering your DPS a lot.

The only bashing shield that's actually worth using outside of spamming abilities is Tuotilo's Palm (either on a monk or with Monastic Unarmed Training). Its even better in Turn Based mode, where using modals is "free" and the Small Shield modal +15 Accuracy on next attack after being missed works beautifully with a Riposte build (such as Swashbuckler Eder - but works even better with Trickster subclass). Its less common enchantment of small additional retaliation chance also synergizes nicely with this (although normally on a monk you'd pick the other enchant, that scales with Wounds).
With Magran's Favor axe in main hand, there'd be 2 Riposte attacks (axe + shield) and sometimes 2 separate special triggers, dealing over 200 damage on a Riposte PLUS a nasty DOT.

 

[TedNugent]

Some of the best shields are extremely powerful defensively though

Which ones in particular? Glancing them over, the only one I'm immediately impressed by is the one with the +1 armor aura.

At level 13, my main PC is walking around with 109 deflection and 14 AR with an exceptional plate, so I don't feel like I need much more in terms of defense. All of my other defenses are well over 100 and +20 against afflictions.

 

[Yosharian]

Well more deflection is always good

 

[TedNugent]

How much more deflection do I need? Just from leveling up to 20 with the same mediocre gear I have, I'm going to be at 130 deflection. I could easily bring that higher just with a deflection bonus item. I'm barely taking damage, and I'm far more concerned about killing things so that I can keep Squishies like the furry git or Aloth alive.

How much is the highest armor penetration you come up against? I can get up to 18 with gilded enmity and an exceptional plate. With legendary plate I'm going to be walking around with 16, so I expect to take 25% damage from any kith target with an accessible 20 AR against anything with more than 16 penetration.

The point was, I'm a bit lopsided defensively right now. I only have 10 dex, so the recovery penalty reduction from armored grace, dual wielding and two weapon style really helps get me back to a decent point to not attacking at a glacial rate.

I'm going to switch to The Best Defense, once I get it, since Pierce/crush is Imo the best combination since it affects both plate and brigandine and should cover me with full penetration up to superb in both heavy armor types. That effectively means it's going to function fully as an offhand weapon against everything kith can wear, and it allows me to take the +25% damage enchantment. Conversely, I like the unique modal on medium shields since it gives 30% resistance to melee attacks, effectively nullifying them, which would be a useful modal if I end up having to tank something that does a ton of melee damage like the dragons in POE.

 

[Yosharian]

If you are concerned about your defensive characters doing more damage then you've probably built your party wrong, you only need a few people focused on damage to completely destroy the game even on the hardest difficulty. Also ripostes are a great way for tanks to do damage and that strategy doesn't need to focus on recovery at all.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I just got to level 10 and bought the Pale Hide from Dunnage for my Deadfire/Island Aumaua Barbarian/Fighter. Playing on Veteran and just RPing equipment feels more fun as a challenge at this point

 

[Haplo]

How much more deflection do I need? Just from leveling up to 20 with the same mediocre gear I have, I'm going to be at 130 deflection. I could easily bring that higher just with a deflection bonus item. I'm barely taking damage, and I'm far more concerned about killing things so that I can keep Squishies like the furry git or Aloth alive.

How much is the highest armor penetration you come up against? I can get up to 18 with gilded enmity and an exceptional plate. With legendary plate I'm going to be walking around with 16, so I expect to take 25% damage from any kith target with an accessible 20 AR against anything with more than 16 penetration.

The point was, I'm a bit lopsided defensively right now. I only have 10 dex, so the recovery penalty reduction from armored grace, dual wielding and two weapon style really helps get me back to a decent point to not attacking at a glacial rate.

I'm going to switch to The Best Defense, once I get it, since Pierce/crush is Imo the best combination since it affects both plate and brigandine and should cover me with full penetration up to superb in both heavy armor types. That effectively means it's going to function fully as an offhand weapon against everything kith can wear, and it allows me to take the +25% damage enchantment. Conversely, I like the unique modal on medium shields since it gives 30% resistance to melee attacks, effectively nullifying them, which would be a useful modal if I end up having to tank something that does a ton of melee damage like the dragons in POE.

Depends on the difficulty and what you intend to tank.
Best tanks have 200+ defenses, I think (buffed). And some bosses may need so much to tank reliably (the strongest ones 240+ I think).
But for normal gameplay? Nah. 130-160 should be fine.

And again, in most cases, the bashing shields are a net DPS loss. Except Tuotilo's Palm. I see The Best Defense has some nifty CC effects. Many of them on kill, though - and I don't think you'll be scoring many kills fast.

 

[TedNugent]

How much more deflection do I need? Just from leveling up to 20 with the same mediocre gear I have, I'm going to be at 130 deflection. I could easily bring that higher just with a deflection bonus item. I'm barely taking damage, and I'm far more concerned about killing things so that I can keep Squishies like the furry git or Aloth alive.

How much is the highest armor penetration you come up against? I can get up to 18 with gilded enmity and an exceptional plate. With legendary plate I'm going to be walking around with 16, so I expect to take 25% damage from any kith target with an accessible 20 AR against anything with more than 16 penetration.

The point was, I'm a bit lopsided defensively right now. I only have 10 dex, so the recovery penalty reduction from armored grace, dual wielding and two weapon style really helps get me back to a decent point to not attacking at a glacial rate.

I'm going to switch to The Best Defense, once I get it, since Pierce/crush is Imo the best combination since it affects both plate and brigandine and should cover me with full penetration up to superb in both heavy armor types. That effectively means it's going to function fully as an offhand weapon against everything kith can wear, and it allows me to take the +25% damage enchantment. Conversely, I like the unique modal on medium shields since it gives 30% resistance to melee attacks, effectively nullifying them, which would be a useful modal if I end up having to tank something that does a ton of melee damage like the dragons in POE.

Depends on the difficulty and what you intend to tank.
Best tanks have 200+ defenses, I think (buffed). And some bosses may need so much to tank reliably (the strongest ones 240+ I think).
But for normal gameplay? Nah. 130-160 should be fine.

And again, in most cases, the bashing shields are a net DPS loss. Except Tuotilo's Palm. I see The Best Defense has some nifty CC effects. Many of them on kill, though - and I don't think you'll be scoring many kills fast.

Are those the bosses people were referring to as being exceptionally difficult, that require 200+ deflection to reliably tank?

They seemed to be suggesting that they were avoidable. I have to admit, they do sound rather like an intriguing challenge.

I doubt that you can get to 200+ without having significant temporary bonuses.

Anyway, my PC has 16 base might, 17 with the Machine buff, and better accuracy than any of the named characters ATM even with a medium shield, and I don't see why I shouldn't let him do some reliable single target auto attack damage just because he's a "tank." He is reliably penetrating armor and scoring hits each round, which is all I ask. I'd rather that then give him pillow fists.

I actually am having the converse problem, most of my "DPS" named characters are dealing peanuts for damage.

 

[Haplo]

Well, perhaps that is your problem. You don't have any real DPS characters, so you do not know what they are capable of.
And how insignificant is the damage a specialized "tank" deals overall.

And please don't bring Penetration into this.
With competent play and good builds it should rarely have any significance.

 

[TedNugent]

Well, perhaps that is your problem. You don't have any real DPS characters, so you do not know what they are capable of.
And how insignificant is the damage a specialized "tank" deals overall.

And please don't bring Penetration into this.
With competent play and good builds it should rarely have any significance.

Probably. People keep talking about rogues, and I avoid them like the plague as I do not like the idea of putting squishies on the front line. Tried Ydwin as people were suggesting she had an ideal stat profile, classed her as a Mindstalker. I was not impressed, as NPC enemies had a habit of focusing her and melting her face off, and I felt an obnoxious and constant need to cycle her out of combat to avoid her dying.

I perhaps made the mistake of single-classing the remainder of my NPCs, which I cannot reverse. Aloth is doing the most damage, owing purely to his AoE spells.

I am....unimpressed by Maia as a ranger. Perhaps I should have made her a Scout. I am almost tempted to go back to Serafen, who is a SC cipher, but Aloth and Pallegina understandably cannot stand him on account of the fact that he is hideous and annoying. I put a frog helm on him because I don't like looking at him. I wish I could replace his character portrait.

What kills me is, I have 82 accuracy on my "tank," with a medium shield, whereas Maia has 67 with an Arquebus. What the fuck? What is this bitch for?

 

[Haplo]

Well, perhaps that is your problem. You don't have any real DPS characters, so you do not know what they are capable of.
And how insignificant is the damage a specialized "tank" deals overall.

And please don't bring Penetration into this.
With competent play and good builds it should rarely have any significance.

Probably. People keep talking about rogues, and I avoid them like the plague as I do not like the idea of putting squishies on the front line. Tried Ydwin as people were suggesting she had an ideal stat profile, classed her as a Mindstalker. I was not impressed, as NPC enemies had a habit of focusing her and melting her face off, and I felt an obnoxious and constant need to cycle her out of combat to avoid her dying.

I perhaps made the mistake of single-classing the remainder of my NPCs, which I cannot reverse. Aloth is doing the most damage, owing purely to his AoE spells.

I am....unimpressed by Maia as a ranger. Perhaps I should have made her a Scout. I am almost tempted to go back to Serafen, who is a SC cipher, but Aloth and Pallegina understandably cannot stand him on account of the fact that he is hideous and annoying. I put a frog helm on him because I don't like looking at him. I wish I could replace his character portrait.

What kills me is, I have 82 accuracy on my "tank," with a medium shield, whereas Maia has 67 with an Arquebus. What the fuck? What is this bitch for?

Yeah, Maia should be a Scout, Eder absolutely should be a Swashbuckler and Pallegina - Herald.

I'm not sold on pure class rogues myself (although SC Assassin should be quite sexy late game with Vanishing Strikes). But MC rogues are another story. Cross them with a fighter or paladin and you've got a strong tank that can also riiip. Hell, Trickster subclass actually significantly adds to the tankiness. And Streetfighter is just a beast if he can survive in the front (and as a fighter with Unbending, he certainly can).
Similar deal with monks. Although they are actually solid as single classes also.

Though still unsure how you managed to have Maia suck that much. Anyway, get her The Red Hand, at least she'll attack nearly twice as often. Driving Flight will improve things a little too.
Though SC ranger is among the worst ideas in Deadfire (along SC fighter, paladin and non-Assassin rogue).

 

[AwesomeButton]

10 pages ago:

Maia is insane as a scout/ranger multiclass. Inflict all the rogue's high single-target damage abilities from a safe distance. Works equally well with any ranged weapon, not just firearms.

If you feel like spending the money, you could recruit a merc Scout and build him/her. Unless you're particular about keeping Maia in the party.

 

[Delterius]

not autistically making every new character a multiclass and old companions single class

smdh

 

[Yosharian]

In my party most fights felt like as long as I kept my ranged gunfighter alive I would win easily

 

[mediocrepoet]

I was finally able to start making progress on POTD now that I understand the changes made to the buffs and debuffs (what a shit change). Generally, I think the system is mostly better than in POE, but I hate the changes to the spellcasting classes (much fewer spells) and the buffs/debuffs. The wizard's grimoire is a nice change with this system and the addition of multiclassing is great.

I think the only weird and unexpected thing is that Deadfire so far reminds me a lot of a more fleshed out Storm of Zehir. This isn't really a complaint, I thought SoZ was cool.

 

[AwesomeButton]

(what a shit change).

As usual, there is some thought behind it. In PoE there were full immunities to certain damage types. Here it's more granular. Though I don't remember ever consciously casting an inspiration in order to counter an affliction.

 

[mediocrepoet]

(what a shit change).

As usual, there is some thought behind it. In PoE there were full immunities to certain damage types. Here it's more granular. Though I don't remember ever consciously casting an inspiration in order to counter an affliction.

Yeah fair enough, the thing that bugs me the most is that some of the debuffs are fantastic and some are complete ass. Like confusion does almost nothing now. Yes, it changes foe aoes to general aoes, but so what? That is so niche that it usually doesn't matter. However, when you expect it to work more or less like in POE which worked more or less like in D&D, it totally screws you when you expect some crowd control out of it, it does nothing, and your party gets murder-raped by a pack of whatever.

Either way, the thing is that it's been much more of an adjustment process than I expected, because not only does some stuff work subtly differently, but also the game feels different. The flow of combat is way different. This doesn't mean that it's bad, but it is a significant change.

Actually, the other thing that irks me is the pathfinding and weird ass collision work around that they introduced where your guys (or the enemies) can push their own side around sometimes so say Eder may keep engagement but get shoved around so he's basically moved 180 degrees which can totally screw you due to exposing your backline, etc. That's just bizarre and I hate it about as much as I do POE's circular pathfinding solution where you see enemies like fampyrs circling around a target like piranhas if there's no room for them to engage. You can see it on a smaller scale in your own party if the game is looking for an open spot for them to go through.

Anyway, I think Deadfire so far seems like an improvement as I mentioned, but a few of these things seem like weird steps back or somewhat inexplicable (I'm sure there's a technical explanation re: the pathfinding in POE and Deadfire, but it feels bad, man).

 

[AwesomeButton]

Actually, the other thing that irks me is the pathfinding and weird ass collision

This is somewhat better in TB if you can stop them on time, but in RTWP it's horrible :D