Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Infinitron]

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Part of it is just him acting defensive. I've had my writing criticized before, and it was hard to deal with at first.

how you dealing with the retard ratings? you seem to love them, otherwise you'd stop posting.

I disagree about Safav's defensive attitude towards flaws of writing in game, but you are truly stupid if you think that "retard rating" really stop someone posting on codex. Any thinking person on codex know that "retard rating" almost lost his true meaning, because some hysterical and sensitive pussies using it instead of "disagree rating", since their feelings hurts by existing different opinion. I don't know what kind of person would stop expressing his opinion only because some ratings. Perhaps worse than this person would be degenerate who misusing "retard rating".

 

[Shadenuat]

Bonerbill always misclicks though and ends up using brown button instead of yellow one for that purpose

 

[Ulfhednar]

Whoops, misclick...

 

[Cross]

So after marketing the game with the tag line 'hunt a god' and making the gods in the game so front and center that they hold literal Skype calls with the player character, the takeaway was supposed to be that this is a down to earth story and it's the player's fault for being let down by the anticlimactic ending.

Yeah okay Sawyer, that totally makes sense.

What's particularly dumb is that the issue he seems to have with player expectation is entirely self-inflicted. Did anyone force Obsidian to write such an epic story? It can't have been because of the burden of making a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games. IIRC Planescape: Torment doesn't even have a single mention of any deity (apart from the banished god of portals in one side quest). And while Baldur's Gate is obviously about the aftermath of something done by a god, no gods ever actually show up.

 

[Steezus]

I see we are twisting basic math now to try to defend this game. Two separate 5% chances doesn't equal 10% or similar to that. It's still 5%, you just roll twice.

It's just advanced animancy math. You wouldn't understand.

 

[Lacrymas]

What's particularly dumb is that the issue he seems to have with player expectation is entirely self-inflicted. Did anyone force Obsidian to write such an epic story? It can't have been because of the burden of making a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games. IIRC Planescape: Torment doesn't even have a single mention of any deity (apart from the banished god of portals in one side quest). And while Baldur's Gate is obviously about the aftermath of something done by a god, no gods ever actually show up.

What's even more dumb is that nothing of this goes anywhere. I just can't fathom what they were thinking with both games. "The gods are fake" is especially idiotic, I can't even. What are they trying to say with this? And what are they trying to say with not being able to defeat Eothas? What is the point of writing this story? What is the conclusion? There are so many questions and none of them the good kind.

 

[BING XI LAO]

The whole setting is also too reasonable and 'realistic'. There's about as much cultural variation in the Pillars world as there is in the real world, or even *less*. It's too sensible. There's something wrong with the writing fundamentally.

 

[Lyre Mors]

"The gods are fake" is especially idiotic, I can't even. What are they trying to say with this?

So many people have an issue with this, but I don't really get why. It seems to be a simple statement that gods are fundamentally a creation of humanity (or kith in this case), not things in themselves. It's just that in this setting they were created for real, and have become powerful enough to be considered deities. I'm not even defending the idea here. I'm just genuinely confused by how much this rubs people the wrong way.

 

[fantadomat]

"The gods are fake" is especially idiotic, I can't even. What are they trying to say with this?

So many people have an issue with this, but I don't really get why. It seems to be a simple statement that gods are fundamentally a creation of humanity (or kith in this case), not things in themselves. It's just that in this setting they were created for real, and have become powerful enough to be considered deities. I'm not even defending the idea here. I'm just genuinely confused by how much this rubs people the wrong way.

They are not gods but buggy software and the problem is that you know it. Thus you can't take all that story seriously,if they were just omnipotent beings and their origin remained a secret it would have been a lot better. Would you like to play as a priest of windows vista? How is the player supposed to take that shit seriously?

 

[Payd Shell]

"The gods are fake" is especially idiotic, I can't even. What are they trying to say with this?

So many people have an issue with this, but I don't really get why. It seems to be a simple statement that gods are fundamentally a creation of humanity (or kith in this case), not things in themselves. It's just that in this setting they were created for real, and have become powerful enough to be considered deities. I'm not even defending the idea here. I'm just genuinely confused by how much this rubs people the wrong way.

The word 'god' has certain implications, artificially created gods are essentially fake gods. They're an amalgation of souls and the reason why Thaos in the first game tries his hardest to abolish animancy is that the other sentient species of this world would sooner or later reach the same level of knowledge as the engwithians, thus rendering their efforts meaningless. I don't know if it's possible to theoretically kill the gods in this setting with very advanced magic science but I don't see why not. Regardless, sooner or later everyone would be able to create more gods.

Which makes the statement 'haha you weren't really expecting to kill a god at the end were you' pretty retarded because PoE explicitly tells you that they aren't actual gods.

 

[Lyre Mors]

The word 'god' has certain implications, artificially created gods are essentially fake gods.

I guess it has implications for the player, but most everyone in the setting still sees them as true gods, which makes sense considering their hidden origin and immense power. I enjoyed finding out that they weren't just typical fantasy deities. It made sense in the context of the world of Eora.

Which makes the statement 'haha you weren't really expecting to kill a god at the end were you' pretty retarded because PoE explicitly tells you that they aren't actual gods.

Definitely not defending the ending of PoE II (because I haven't even gotten to it yet) or Josh's defensive attitude about how it concludes.

 

[Payd Shell]

I guess it has implications for the player, but most everyone in the setting still sees them as true gods, which makes sense considering their hidden origin and immense power. I enjoyed finding out that they weren't just typical fantasy deities. It made sense in the context of the world of Eora.


Definitely not defending the ending of PoE II (because I haven't even gotten to it yet) or Josh's defensive attitude about how it concludes.

Yeah but you're not everyone else. I mean, even as the player you can buy into the narrative that the fake gods are a 'good enough' substitute for the real thing. And since they are powerful enough to pass as gods their worship could be justified but that gets subverted because the knowledge to create or maybe even dismantle ""gods"" isn't something that's unachievable because it's simply the result of this settings' version of science. I don't think the gods being artificial is an inherently bad choice for the story, it's just what they did with it.

Since Deadfire is a direct sequel there's no reason to not assume that you wouldn't be able to discover a way of destroying or at least stopping a god temporarily. They're not something that's really otherworldly or metaphysical, they're just a bunch of souls fused together. At the most basic level they're not really that different from the different kind of souls powered constructs you encounter.

 

[Lyre Mors]

Yeah but you're not everyone else. I mean, even as the player you can buy into the narrative that the fake gods are a 'good enough' substitute for the real thing. And since they are powerful enough to pass as gods their worship could be justified but that gets subverted because the knowledge to create or maybe even dismantle ""gods"" isn't something that's unachievable because it's simply the result of this settings' version of science. I don't think the gods being artificial is an inherently bad choice for the story, it's just what they did with it.

Since Deadfire is a direct sequel there's no reason to not assume that you wouldn't be able to discover a way of destroying or at least stopping a god temporarily. They're not something that's really otherworldly or metaphysical, they're just a bunch of souls fused together. At the most basic level they're not really that different from the different kind of souls powered constructs you encounter.

I have no doubt that if this series was continued, and ended up with a sequel set 1,000 years in future, this kind of soul science will have been discovered (probably as a direct result of the study of animancy, which is still young in the current games) and the gods will have been dismantled. That doesn't mean that the contemporary inhabitants of Eora have the capabilities to do such a thing. And again, I'm not defending the ending of PoE II, which seems to be your main concern in this discussion with your return to the idea of destroying the gods. I'm just saying that it makes sense in the context of the setting that the knowledge on how to destroy the gods wouldn't be available. Also, clearly if these amalgamations of souls with consciousnesses are powerful enough to be in existence in the first place, they must be pretty hard or near impossible to destroy by mortal means.

 

[Payd Shell]

But the knowledge and technology to do these things already exist. The only reason people haven't re-discovered it yet is the leaden key babysitting the gods.

 

[Lyre Mors]

But the knowledge and technology to do these things already exist. The only reason people haven't re-discovered it yet is the leaden key babysitting the gods.

Wouldn't that imply the secret to destroying the gods died along with Thaos then? Not trying to be sarcastic or a dick with that statement. That's just what makes sense to me.

 

[fantadomat]

But the knowledge and technology to do these things already exist. The only reason people haven't re-discovered it yet is the leaden key babysitting the gods.

Wouldn't that mean that the secret to destroying the gods died along with Thaos then? Not trying to be sarcastic or a dick with that statement either. That's just what makes sense to me.

Well the gods most likely are big machines set in different places around the world. After all the afterlife is a big harddrive machine that is guarded by mecha dragon,even if Engwithan weren't technologically advanced according to PoE 1 lore.

 

[Ulfhednar]

“Hey Durance, do we know how to kill gods in Eora?”

 

[Lyre Mors]

After all the afterlife is a big hardware machine that is guarded by mecha dragon

I guess I'm missing some lore if this is actually the case, but haven't seen a solid description or indication of where the gods actually reside, or whether this place is in the physical realm, or existing in a more metaphysical state, or even another plane of existence. The only thing I know is that the machines in PoE 1 could channel the souls of the once living and soon to be born to Woedica via Sun in Shadow. Even with the knowledge that the gods are created through ancient Engwithan technology doesn't give us a definite answer as to what they really are at this point. It's important to remember that they were created by channeling sacrificed souls through Adra. This interaction could have had such effects that the gods do actually exist on another plane of reality for all anyone knows, and can freely interact with the world of Eora with their connection to it through the Adra.

 

[fantadomat]

After all the afterlife is a big hardware machine that is guarded by mecha dragon

I guess I'm missing some lore if this is actually the case, but haven't seen a solid description or indication of where the gods actually reside, or whether this place is in the physical realm, or existing in a more metaphysical state, or even another plane of existence. The only thing I know is that the machines in PoE 1 could channel the souls of the once living and soon to be born to Woedica via Sun in Shadow. Even with the knowledge that the gods are created through ancient Engwithan technology doesn't give us a definite answer as to what they really are. It's important to remember that they were created by channeling sacrificed souls through Adra. This interaction could have had such effects that the gods do actually exist on another plane of reality for all anyone knows, and can freely interact with the world of Eora with their connection to it through the Adra.

I doubt that even the writers know that shit,they pretty much fucked up the lore from the first game.In the first game the Engwithan were just some mages that were better at soul magic,more or less what you wrote. In the second game they became a highly advanced people that could create all kinds of machines,thus breaking the lore from the first game. Also the rebirth cycle was supposed to be a natural process and it the second was a machine.

The writing in deadfire is a massive mess,even bigger than the one from the first game. I personally can't stand plotholes and illogical things in a fictional writing or any other for that matter. Deadfire just made me want to punch the monitor. The whole world and lore are retarded mess,it feels like 10 cooks decided to do 10 different cuisine and put it all in one plate.

 

[Lyre Mors]

In the second game they became a highly advanced people that could create all kinds of machines,thus breaking the lore from the first game.

How does this break the lore from the first game? If I'm not mistaken, the Engwithan built the machines that channeled and focused the souls into Sun in Shadow, and are the same machines that Thaos reactivates in the PoE 1 timeline to create Waidwen's legacy. This would indicate that they were not only adept at magics, but also technology, right?

Also the rebirth cycle was supposed to be a natural process and it the second was a machine.

As far as I've seen in PoE II, the rebirth cycle is indeed still a natural one, though governed by the gods (particularly Berath). Maybe you're confused because of the broken machine that is around the Adra in the Poko Kohara Ruins that had trapped the souls of the Vailians you were searching for? Maybe there is something further into the game I haven't seen yet that confirms what you're referring to? Otherwise I haven't seen any contradictions in regards to how the rebirth cycle is supposed to work between PoE 1 and 2.

On the same note, I haven't spotted too many, if any, logical inconsistencies in the setting. All the nations and cultures discussed in the first game are just as they were then. I would love to see some examples, though, so that if I've been missing them I can take a closer look at what I've been missing.

I doubt that even the writers know that shit

This I can agree with. The actual writing itself is mostly poor in both games. The thing that I appreciated and rarely found issue with in PoE 1 and 2 was the lore and setting.

 

[2house2fly]

The stuff about the afterlife is something you'll find out after going to Ashen Maw. Basically:

Spoiler

the Engwithans created a machine called "The Wheel" (it actually looks nothing like a wheel, which leads me to believe the Engwithans believed in a wheel as a metaphor for the rebirth cycle already and named the machine after the pre-existing concept) which governs the flow of souls between lives, and also sustains the gods by sending them essence. Clearly there was a natural cycle before this, but the Engwithans hijacked it in a way a developer has compared to building a dam to control the flow of a river, and Eothas's goal of breaking the wheel is compared to breaking the machinery inside the dam

If you want to shit on the player, it gotta be thematically fitting. It works in games like VtMB and Shadowrun Dragonfall where there are three layers of Puppet Masters above you and it would stray from the setting if there weren't. But even those games gave you agency, and let you try to break the existing power structures! (Although to disastrous results.)

At the end of Deadfire you can challenge Eothas to a fight to try and stop him, and he kills you. There you go, it lets you try.

“Hey Durance, do we know how to kill gods in Eora?”

Durance: [looks at god he blew up striding across the landscape] No, we do not.

 

[Payd Shell]

But the knowledge and technology to do these things already exist. The only reason people haven't re-discovered it yet is the leaden key babysitting the gods.

Wouldn't that mean that the secret to destroying the gods died along with Thaos then? Not trying to be sarcastic or a dick with that statement either. That's just what makes sense to me.

Cue the watchers. Besides, keep in mind that the engwithian stuff is still in working condition. We probably wouldn't have taken that long to develop the atomic bomb if we already had several of them lying around from an ancient, pre-historical super civilization.

 

[Lyre Mors]

The stuff about the afterlife is something you'll find out after going to Ashen Maw. Basically:

Thank you very much! I ventured the spoiler just so I could be a little more abreast of this conversation. I don't see any logical inconsistency there either. Nor do I see it as particularly different from how the machines in PoE 1 operated. Seems like the same technology used for a different purpose. In fact, that purpose being if I understand this correctly to

Spoiler

put the wheel of rebirth into the hands of the gods

Cue the watchers. Besides, keep in mind that the engwithian stuff is still in working condition. We probably wouldn't have taken that long to develop the atomic bomb if we already had several of them lying around from an ancient, pre-historical super civilization.

I thought that this technology was only really operational by the hands of Thaos. Even if a watcher observed the operations of these machine, or even questioned a soul as to how they worked, this doesn't imply they would have the means necessary to operate them. Remember that people who found these machines didn't understand what they were in the slightest. Just that they were ruins and possibly mechanical in nature.

 

[fantadomat]

In the second game they became a highly advanced people that could create all kinds of machines,thus breaking the lore from the first game.

How does this break the lore from the first game? If I'm not mistaken, the Engwithan built the machines that channeled and focused the souls into Sun in Shadow, and are the same machines that Thaos reactivates in the PoE 1 timeline to create Waidwen's legacy. This would indicate that they were not only adept at magics, but also technology, right?

Also the rebirth cycle was supposed to be a natural process and it the second was a machine.

As far as I've seen in PoE II, the rebirth cycle is indeed still a natural one, though governed by the gods (particularly Berath). Maybe you're confused because of the broken machine that is around the Adra in the Poko Kohara Ruins that had trapped the souls of the Vallians you were searching for? Maybe there is something further into the game I haven't seen yet that confirms what you're referring to? Otherwise I haven't seen any contradictions in regards to how the rebirth cycle is supposed to work between PoE 1 and 2.

On the same note, I haven't spotted too many, if any, logical inconsistencies in the setting. All the nations and cultures discussed in the first game are just as they were then. I would love to see some examples, though, so that if I've been missing them I can take a closer look at what I've been missing.

I doubt that even the writers know that shit

This I can agree with. The actual writing itself is mostly poor in both games. The thing that I appreciated and rarely found issue with in PoE 1 and 2 was the lore and setting.

I see that you haven't finished the game,2house2fly left a pretty nice spoiler explanation about the cycle retardation. You are yet to get in to the bad part of the game.

For the machines...well depends how you look at it,they are more of structures controlled by magic than machines per se. Lore of the first one is that they weren't very advanced and more or less on par with the local tribes and kingdoms. This is kind of illogical because making a skyscrapers,underwater cities,floating cities and mech dragons is kind of pretty advanced,even we can't do that shit now in the real world.You would think that all the other tribes and kingdoms remained and became even more advanced.

Now here is what obsidian tells us about their technology,i see that they have updated added low effort mecha creating skill:

Technology
The Engwithans were good at three things: soul manipulation, mathematics, and growing large structures. Their metallurgy was generally unimpressive and they weren't particularly advanced in any other fields. Glanfathans have surpassed them in mathematical discoveries and astronomy. The other cultures have also discovered an enormous amount of knowledge about souls that the Engwithans never did—though there are still aspects of Engwithan technology that contemporary animancers don't understand.[9]

Notably, Engwithans pioneered the creation of animats, fusing warrior souls with bronze armor and weapons through the use of adra. Although Dyrwoodan and Vailian animancers have been creating their own constructs that exceed the capabilities of Engwithan creations, they never reach the sheer production scales that Engwithans were able to achieve at eg. Cliaban Rilag.[10]

They often used copper for their architecture and magical items, as copper is an especially strong binder for soul energy. Bronze alloys were also frequently used.