Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Lacrymas]

They could have made Eothas unkillable and ustoppable force of nature, but focus story on the consequences of his actions instead of trying to hump his leg.

They don't have the writing chops to pull something like this off. They should've just stuck to a simple story, like BG1, while trying to cram in as much C&C and interconnections as possible. Without resorting to god councils and other such bullshit.

 

[Haplo]

I found a secret way to infliltrate Fort Deadlight. If you have the Rauatai submarine, you can submerge underwater and emerge at the docks.

looooool

To get submarine SPOILARZ, you have to literally reach the end of the game, meet Eothas, fight fire giants and dragon, beat all opposition to ruatai including assasinating queen/her brother, at which point you would be skyrocketed to ehh I'd say level 15+ at least
And Deadlight can be beaten right after sailing from prologue, well a lot harder if PoTD, as you can reach it by simply clicking 1 > 1 to ram the docks and assault fort with no preparations required

that's like, the difinition of wasted resources on a C&C

Perhaps wasted resources. But very cool option none the less.

But it's still WAY better then the holy BG.

nope.

If you like enchanting which is choosing between a bunch of equally uninspiring 5% options then I guess it's your heaven of course. If you like equipment making or breaking builds and heavily influencing flow of combat, then no.

Umm, yes?
Lots of builds are created around using specific weapons (too many to list) and also other pieces of equipment (shields like Tuotilo's or Akola Apex; Deltro's Cage helm).

In BG the difference was just some % of effectiveness between the lightning katana or maybe the lightning hammer (or dual wield and use both). Both build and playstyle were virtually identical regardless. In PoE2 weapon choice defines how you build & play the character.

 

[Ulfhednar]

PoE 2 is a shitty monomyth because you’re the Watcher and the “Chosen of Berath”, so they start with Hero’s Journey/Chosen One archetype, but the Watcher has no transformational experiences and cannot affect the ultimate outcome. The game would work better narratively if you were some hapless Deadfire mook (I.e. not a Chosen One) whose transformation was effected by the collateral damage of encountering the giant walking adra statue... still not great, but better.

They should scale back to non-epic plots given the exodus of writing talent, but they are trapped by the expectations that PoE 2 will be more epic than the first game.

 

[Lacrymas]

There are no character arcs at all (are there even characters that matter?), let alone something that will make you conquer the challenge, which is also nonexistent. It's like reading a bad itinerary, just a description of stuff.

 

[Shadenuat]

too many to list

You wouldn't know them, and there is not enough time to tell

Tuotilo's

That item again.
You can make a single class monk without a single unique item who would 2-shot things on PoTD. Why do you need it?

In BG the difference was just some % of effectiveness between the lightning katana or maybe the lightning hammer

Indeed, what's the difference between a stun effect that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game or 25 strength and killing bunch of enemy types outright.

In PoE2 weapon choice defines how you build & play the character

What a choice - an endgame sabre with freeze lash, or an endgame sabre with lightning lash, or endgame sabre with a few more critical hits, or an endgame sabre with 1 extra pen.

builds

Aka the epitome of believing that combining more 5% together somehow adds something interesting to the game combat.

My dudes, I honestly think that if you are allowed to stack random shit on your character and create various larpy builds wearing tricone hats and pikes, it means that it doesn't actually truly matter what you use, provided you are reasonably high level (which game has no trouble with, and which is why most "builds" posted on forum feature high level, fully equipped characters killing some trash mobs or final boss when they are already level 20). I.e. if the choice between using a sword and using a pike just defines how you play character, and it is not actually required to use a pike to accomplish some sort of party building objective (like in Wizardry, for example, where only weapons with long reach are useful for back row characters who are too fragile to act on front lines) or beating a particular encounter (like in Age of Decadence, where beating encounters might require you to use consumables or re-roll a combat character which fits you better indeed), you are just all playing dress up dolls and play-pretend who is going to kill shit a bit faster than another player while stacked with all the best equipment and consumables.

Concidering game does not provide even basic necessity about using enchanted equipment (you can beat game by just wearing Superb+ white items falling by truckton from everywhere) except, arguably, a single encounter type in the whole game (Vampires), it's all just that. Well I guess it's a lot more important if you solo, but if you can solo party based game then I think we already have a problem here. That is why most builds do not focus on achieving an objective - like, say, Path of Exile builds do (objective: survive some unfair shit), but are mostly LARP on obsidian forums. With some very difficult decisions - do I choose this armor with 5% chance to evade attack, or this without or; do I choose this belt, or this with +2 con that adds 20 extra hitpoints. Extremely hard choices, you can break your brain doing this.

 

[Lacrymas]

Builds do actually matter in the sense that some of them break the game and others don't. You can complete the BGs solo as well, it just requires cheese, like it requires cheese to get The Ultimate in PoE1. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say builds in PoE don't matter when there are such tremendous power divide between them. Being able to create LARPy builds is good, the Skaen Priest certainly wasn't the min-max-iest class in PoE1, yet I liked the playstyle and managed to finish the game with it. I actually discovered a love for Rogue/Priest multi-classes and am currently almost finished with a BG1 runthrough with a Cleric/Thief.

There are some very interesting builds in both PoEs, maybe not enough, but I think it's unfair to criticize the PoEs for build variety when it's actually one of the most varied system in this context.

 

[Shadenuat]

What builds break the game? Provide examples pls since it's always "you wouldn't know them and there is not enough time to tell".

The infinite pellets were fixed, Alchemy doesn't affect Insect Plague anymore, that's what I know anyway. Figurines were also changed.

Casting single empowered spell before combat, does that break the game? It has nothing to do with builds though.

 

[Lacrymas]

Prime Junta 's example is one. A Wizard/Unbroken who can't really die.

 

[Sizzle]

There are no character arcs at all (are there even characters that matter?)

It seems to me that part of the problem here is that they tried to stick too closely to F:NV's formula even in this aspect (every character can die and you can still finish the game), but they really should have adapted the formula a bit - what worked well for that game isn't necessarily as effective in a party-based IE-like.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can't say Mr. House or Caesar didn't matter, though, regardless of their mortality. Is Queen Onekaza II and the other clowns on the same level as them? I don't think so.

 

[Shadenuat]

Prime Junta 's example is one. A Wizard/Unbroken who can't really die.

I made fighter/paladin by picking all deflection in the world who could hold 8 enemies at the same time while I'd kill them all from afar, although tank himself could slowly but steadily munch from them all solo too. I'm not sure stacking deflection is that much of a "build" really. It worked same in PoE1. This is less about builds and more about the whole Accuracy/Deflection system which just leads to this sort of play. PoE system allows invulnerable tanks indeed.

My main gripe with builds is that as I see it, the only reason to make them is either larping or simple boredom. Even concept of builds themselves in a single player RPG means that, you don't vary approach to encounters due to tactical necessity - you approach them differently simply due to the matter of your own personal style.

 

[Sizzle]

You can't say Mr. House or Caesar didn't matter, though, regardless of their mortality. Is Queen Onekaza II and the other clowns on the same level as them? I don't think so.

Sure, but they also didn't have that much of a character arc to them either.

And that's part of the point - in F:NV, that fact was masked by having them be well written and integrated into the game world.

To achieve the same thing here (having memorable characters), POE2's characters should either be on the same level (very hard to do now, as the best writers have left), or make them less static throughout the entirety of the game.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Anyone that thinks the itemization was better in BG is not worth taking seriously. Wow, +2 fire damage on every hit... so exciting!

 

[Strange Fellow]

BG2 had good itemization.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sure, but they also didn't have that much of a character arc to them either.

And that's part of the point - in F:NV, that fact was masked by having them be well written and integrated into the game world.

To achieve the same thing here (having memorable characters), POE2's characters should either be on the same level (very hard to do now, as the best writers have left), or make them less static throughout the entirety of the game.

The character arc must be the protagonist's or playable characters, not NPCs (even though they can have them as well). While there doesn't NEED to be a character arc, it can be a series of choices that lead to some kind of outcome, those choices and outcomes must be the thing that matters. Confronting Eothas isn't a result of the protagonist's choices and the outcome is also not the result of that. Eothas is an Ending-Tron 3000.

I made fighter/paladin by picking all deflection in the world who could hold 8 enemies at the same time while I'd kill them all from afar, although tank himself could slowly but steadily munch from them all solo too. I'm not sure stacking deflection is that much of a "build" really. It worked same in PoE1. This is less about builds and more about the whole Accuracy/Deflection system which just leads to this sort of play. PoE system allows invulnerable tanks indeed.

My main gripe with builds is that as I see it, the only reason to make them is either larping or simple boredom. Even concept of builds themselves in a single player RPG means that, you don't vary approach to encounters due to tactical necessity - you approach them differently simply due to the matter of your own personal style.

Accuracy/Deflection is part of the system, whether anyone likes it or not. There's also the issue about your definition of "matters" and "breaking the game". And yeah, one of the most important aspects of building a character is for you to play them however you wish. It's not only about pitting mathematical formulas against each other. And in the end, the game must be complete-able at least with the story companions, who are decidedly not min-maxed, so you can be a dead weight and still beat the game, so I don't think complete-ability in that sense is all that important.

 

[Prime Junta]

What builds break the game? Provide examples pls since it's always "you wouldn't know them and there is not enough time to tell".

Any caster multiclass with Unbroken with dagger & large shield spec (and it doesn't even have to be Unbroken, plain old fighter will do). Virtually unlimited Concentration, -50% ranged and reflex-targeting damage with extra armour, casting in the front line. They're ridiculously robust ----> completely indestructible with some self-buffs. I tried it with a wizard but I'm sure the druid with the conical spells would be at least as lulzy.

FWIW I don't think it's a problem that there are broken builds. I do think it's a bit of a problem that such an obvious multiclass combo as Battlemage is so broken. There should be a certain amount of thought involved in discovering them.

 

[Shadenuat]

Anyone that thinks the itemization was better in BG is not worth taking seriously. Wow, +2 fire damage on every hit... so exciting!

+2 fire on every hit means that a) it passes creatures which are physically immune b) it kills trolls c) element damage passes through mage defences, mainly stoneskin, which means that fire damage would interrupt their spellcasting every hit (which is why Flail of Ages was so good, especially with Whirlwind HLA).
Also, +2 damage in AD&D stacks up nicely especially on low levels. That's why bandits with magic arrows with +1d6 fire damage would fuck you up so badly - 6 bandits shooting at the same time means one of your characters eats an additional of 6d6 fire damage which is same damage as fireball does. Concidering average enemy hp in AD&D is very low compared to modern systems, that shit is powerful.

In fact, a simple flame arrow is so powerful, that people were building their theoretical army battles around calculating how many level 1 dudes with some simple magical equipment would it take to beat more dudes or a high level adventurer.

Also, remember that in IE there are no grazes and stuff that turns your elemental lash into 0.3 damage. It's always there and is reliable so if you hit it stacks up. The difference between 18/00 strength and 15 strength is 6 damage. So 2 extra damage is like 1/3 of having best strength in the game without half orc or endgame equipment.

Any caster multiclass with Unbroken with dagger & large shield spec (and it doesn't even have to be Unbroken, plain old fighter will do). Virtually unlimited Concentration, -50% ranged and reflex-targeting damage with extra armour, casting in the front line. They're ridiculously robust ----> completely indestructible with some self-buffs

I was kinda waiting for something that explodes all monsters on the screen honestly. Guess my definition on what is broken is very different. I played mage who wore heavy armor, shield with modal and codex-grimoire who did something similar - I was tired of getting shot by guns during ship fights and similar things. Had at most 2 stacks of concentration from items maybe. Blasted everything. Arguably ability to wear tower shields on casters who can press awesome button to explode everything is somewhat too much by itself regardless of dual classing.

 

[Safav Hamon]

This was an example of good itemization in BG2

Spoiler

Now here are a few quick screenshots I took from my inventory in Pillars II (keep in mind most of these items are not fully upgraded)

Spoiler

 

[Sizzle]

Sure, but they also didn't have that much of a character arc to them either.

And that's part of the point - in F:NV, that fact was masked by having them be well written and integrated into the game world.

To achieve the same thing here (having memorable characters), POE2's characters should either be on the same level (very hard to do now, as the best writers have left), or make them less static throughout the entirety of the game.

The character arc must be the protagonist's or playable characters, not NPCs (even though they can have them as well). While there doesn't NEED to be a character arc, it can be a series of choices that lead to some kind of outcome, those choices and outcomes must be the thing that matters. Confronting Eothas isn't a result of the protagonist's choices and the outcome is also not the result of that. Eothas is an Ending-Tron 3000.

Exactly, the biggest problem here is that the main story with Eothas would have unfolded exactly the same - with or without the PC's involvement. It's not the way to craft a game story, especially not this kind of story.

It's about weakly and meekly following Eothas and only having some say at the very end. When I was playing it, I was constantly waiting for that moment when the player would have some agency in the story - which never came.

Not to mention how the "decide the fate of the Archipelago" aspect of the story has practically nothing to do with the Eothas part of the narrative (ending slides don't really count).

 

[Jasede]

Anyone that thinks the itemization was better in BG is not worth taking seriously. Wow, +2 fire damage on every hit... so exciting!

+2 fire on every hit means that a) it passes creatures which are physically immune b) it kills trolls c) element damage passes through mage defences, mainly stoneskin, which means that fire damage would interrupt their spellcasting every hit (which is why Fail of Ages was so good, especially with Whirlwind HLA).
Also, +2 damage in AD&D stacks up nicely especially on low levels. That's why bandits with magic arrows with +1d6 fire damage would fuck you up so badly - 6 bandits shooting at the same time means one of your characters eats an additional of 6d6 fire damage which is same damage as fireball does. Concidering average enemy hp in AD&D is very low compared to modern systems, that shit is powerful.

In fact, a simple flame arrow is so powerful, that people were building their theoretical army battles around calculating how many level 1 dudes with some simple magical equipment would it take to beat more dudes or a high level adventurer.

Also, remember that in IE there are no grazes and stuff that turns your elemental lash into 0.3 damage. It's always there and is reliable so if you hit it stacks up. The difference between 18/00 strength and 15 strength is 6 damage. So 2 extra damage is like 1/3 of having best strength in the game without half orc or endgame equipment.

Any caster multiclass with Unbroken with dagger & large shield spec (and it doesn't even have to be Unbroken, plain old fighter will do). Virtually unlimited Concentration, -50% ranged and reflex-targeting damage with extra armour, casting in the front line. They're ridiculously robust ----> completely indestructible with some self-buffs

I was kinda waiting for something that explodes all monsters on the screen honestly. Guess my definition on what is broken is very different. I played mage who wore heavy armor, shield with modal and codex-grimoire who did something similar. Had at most 2 stacks of concentration from items maybe. Blasted everything. Arguably ability to wear tower shields on casters who can press awesome button to explode everything is somewhat too much by itself regardless of dual classing.

+2 in AD&D is a /lot/ more than +5% in PoE. Even a +1 is a huge difference in your hit% and expected damage output.
Which is why I prefer the BG2 itemization also.

Plus, all the items had interesting descriptions. This is not the case in PoE. I haven't played PoE 2 yet. I did hear you can talk the final boss to death and it ends in a 30 minute conversation, so maybe it's not as bad.

Now, Safav posted some PoE 2 items. The issue I have with them is that it's a bit of an 'affix salad' that, at least in PoE, didn't really result in much of a gain, which was caused by the weird combat/stat system. You will also have to admit that many of those read like MMORPG (such as WoW) item procs.

 

[Safav Hamon]

10% chance to turn your enemy into a pig or charm them with every hit is a lot more powerful and interesting than anything in Baldurs Gate. Then they add the ability to summon two drakes once per encounter on top of that.

If anything, most unique equipment in Deadfire is overkill even after the nerfs.

 

[Lacrymas]

I was kinda waiting for something that explodes all monsters on the screen honestly. Guess my definition on what is broken is very different. I played mage who wore heavy armor, shield with modal and codex-grimoire who did something similar - I was tired of getting shot by guns during ship fights and similar things. Had at most 2 stacks of concentration from items maybe. Blasted everything. Arguably ability to wear tower shields on casters who can press awesome button to explode everything is somewhat too much by itself regardless of dual classing.

The entire premise of PoE's system was to not have builds that explode monsters like this and I was/am fully on board with that. It's much better to have a system in which a lot of concepts are playable than the situation in the IE games, where you have a nagging feeling you aren't playing it right when you aren't a mage. I consciously limit myself to 1 arcane user in them because everything would be too easy otherwise. I also don't see the value in steamrolling the content, we clamor for challenging combat, yet also eulogize the lack of builds that make that challenge go away.

 

[Shadenuat]

10% chance to turn your enemy into a pig or charm them with every hit is a lot more powerful and interesting than anything in Baldurs Gate. Then they add the ability to summon two drakes once per encounter on top of that.

If anything, most fully upgraded equipment in Deadfire is unbalanced overkill even after the nerfs.

That is not 10% to turn enemy into a pig (and by the way, the crossbow is the only interesting item from the bunch - which is why many playes always cite it as an exciting item);
it's a 5% chance
to cast a spell (that by itself should have a chance to land, including miss/graze against enemy err Will I guess?)
only on hit (not on graze).
And we don't even know how probability is calculated (because there are different ways of making probabilities).

If that excites you, you are a very easily amused person.

At the same time, the value of pure immunity to a nasty effect like Hold + ability to Haste itself (which is more attacks and blitzing speed) is quite valuable in BG2.

It is not a 5% lottery, it's something you always have, it's reliable and Haste helps well, literally any class. How is a slot machine item with a bunch of 5% is more helpful I don't understand. (summoning drakes, of course, is great, which is also very amusing because to get that enchantment you have to exchange for it a bunch of useless lottery 5% ones - which means you choose between a bunch of useless things and one actual good thing)

 

[Safav Hamon]

It's 5% chance to turn them into a pig, 5% chance to charm them, which means it's a 10% chance to do either every hit. Then the wand has the ability to summon two drakes and cast an invincibility spell once per battle. Do you not understand how overpowered that is?

Sorry Shadenaut, but you're just being a nostalgic old fool. The level of delusion and mental gymnastics required to believe Baldurs Gate has better itemization is too extreme.

 

[Shadenuat]

Do you not understand how overpowered that is?

No, because unlike you I understand probabilities. Drakes are useful (like any summon, but BG had summoning items too), everything else on that wand, after patch, is proc-trash.

Sorry Shadenaut, but you're just being a nostalgic old fool. The level of delusion and mental gymnastics required to believe Baldurs Gate has better itemization is too extreme.

There is no need to be so upset Josh. Or do you want me to buy your next game so much?