Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[LannTheStupid]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

Well, surely you need to micro him to avoid enemies' attacks. And you have tools for that: Greater Invisibility and Acrobatics with high Mobility. That's how Nok-Nok worked for me in Kingmaker, and that's how Woljif works for me in Wrath. Granted, Woljif has self-buffs, so he does not require as much attention from other party members as Nok-Nok.

Also, dead enemies do not attack.

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

The replay value could come from being good vs being evil (chaotic and lawful don't seem to matter as much) in your kingdom decisions and companion selection. A good paladin/cleric, and later a bad scion/rogue or whatever.
What should have been the reason to replay is siding with the guy who sent you on the adventure, or his political adversaries, or with the other newly minted barrons to form a third, independent realm. This could've produced a unique final act for each possible resolution of the kingdom situation. Of course thats not how the actual Kingmaker module is in pen&paper, but it should've been done for the video game. Seems obvious, not just in hindsight.

It seems we were playing different games.

Lawful barony gets a unique building to add +2 to solving problems in the region. Lawful Evil barony gets another unique building that adds +1. So bringing law and order by iron fist is rewarded not only from RP perspective, but on the strategic layer.

You are helping another baron in Act IV. The person who receives the title in the same room as you.

You can help either the Aldori or their sworn enemies when the war between them breaks out. This is one of the main quests of Act V.

And your new kingdom remains independent at least in some ending slides, especially in the secret ending.

I mean - yes, they could have done all of this better. Probably. However, what you wrote means you did not play the game.

 

[Iskramor]

Level 4 party normal diff. old sycamore Viscount Smoulderburn he removes my remove fear cleric spell and casts shield.Auto unistall.Someone told me that use magic device is usless so i could not even use wand of magic missles.
Moscovites who wear Nerd Virgin Looser Manchild/Shithead tag should just jump in front of train or get a a life.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

The replay value could come from being good vs being evil (chaotic and lawful don't seem to matter as much) in your kingdom decisions and companion selection. A good paladin/cleric, and later a bad scion/rogue or whatever. Though the game is obviously set up for a druid or ranger.
What should have been the reason to replay is siding with the guy who sent you on the adventure, or his political adversaries, or with the other newly minted barrons to form a third, independent realm. This could've produced a unique final act for each possible resolution of the kingdom situation. Of course thats not how the actual Kingmaker module is in pen&paper, but it should've been done for the video game. Seems obvious, not just in hindsight.

No, there's a good bit of play along Lawful/Chaotic. I don't RP Evil so don't know about the other pole but I highlighted some of the unique features of each MC alignment here when I did LN, CG, and N playthroughs.

It plays out more along the lines of which factions outside the Barony you align with than inside, but of course the Varnhold chapter is about the choice to ally with a newly-minted baron or a.. not-so-newly-minted one.

The following unlock only for Neutral MCs (or maybe choosing Neutral dialogue):



Old Sycamore and it's aftereffects plays out dramitcally differently for L,N, and C as well, etc...

Game is set up for Druid/Ranger? No, there's a Ranger companion. There's a Druid archetype that works well for the setting (eventually) but that's hardly an overriding factor.

 

[Camel]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Taking Whites in the party is racism.

Video Games Are Slowly Opening Up to More Black Characters​

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...re-slowly-opening-up-to-more-black-characters
Diversity and inclusion.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Taking Whites in the party is racism.

Taking only whites definitely is. Especially when this choice is not based on merit.

If you to actually implement this idea, then you miss the best archer companion with the freaking pet, the best melee damage dealer - and, depending on the depth of your bigotry and conspiracy thinking, you might even have to reject another companion.

 

[Average Manatee]

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

The only fragile thing about Nok-Nok is every enemy that touches him (instant explosion).

 

[LannTheStupid]

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

The only fragile thing about Nok-Nok is every enemy that touches him (instant explosion).

Yes, but also he can't take hits and his will saves are abysmal (IIRC). So he needs some care and love.

 

[Desiderius]

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

The only fragile thing about Nok-Nok is every enemy that touches him (instant explosion).

Yes, but also he can't take hits and his will saves are abysmal (IIRC). So he needs some care and love.

Jewb can set him up (Shield, Barkskin, and Reduce Person). He's fine. P:K is missing most of the ways to buff/avoid Will saves that Wrath gives you so good idea to let him assassinate things that trigger Will Saves and give him the initiative to do so.

repost

 

[Delterius]

FINE, I WILL REINSTALL. My old save games will still be there. After I complete acts 3-4-5, as suggested, I will return and shit on the game again because I'm pretty confident that there is no "good deal of interesting, epic stuff."

Oh trust me, there is, if you've ever been tickled by the idea of "mad gods," or thought about how insane and bored you'd get if you were actually immortal and as powerful as a god, you'll love what's coming. It's quite horrific and terrifying (much more terrifying than the demonic stuff in PFWOTR imho).

Yeah it's a real shame that the game gets bogged down with copy paste trash mobs and boring level design because the story beats in the last chapter are quite cool IMO

What's cool to me about the finale of Kingmaker is that you actually have to go through the uh, nonstandard ending to fully realize how fucked up it is.

 

[KainenMorden]

Level 4 party normal diff. old sycamore Viscount Smoulderburn he removes my remove fear cleric spell and casts shield.Auto unistall.Someone told me that use magic device is usless so i could not even use wand of magic missles.
Moscovites who wear Nerd Virgin Looser Manchild/Shithead tag should just jump in front of train or get a a life.

It's an optional fight, you can lvl up and then go back as I did and then it's not too difficult if you have some understanding of the encounter.

Also, I wouldn't let politics that are inserted into a game alter my play style. The blk ranger is a very good party member.

I don't think it was necessary, I don't think the kingdom management was necessary either but I still think the game is very good.

I wonder what fan feedback lead to the inclusion of Kingdom management. It's unlike anything I can recall in other crpgs I've played. I would imagine most players would be put off by it or at the very least, indifferent to it.

The wokeness, well, I'm unsure what value the devs thought that would add. I also wonder how many gays/"POC" actually play games like this. Perhaps many purchase it and add to the steam numbers of players who never complete much of the game at all or they play on story mode or whatever.

At any rate, I'm not sure if there's another crpg with this level of mechanical/system depth but there's many titles I haven't played. The game is also incredibly long, I've put in 50 hrs+ to finish Act 2 and I did have to reload quite a bit on some encounters but not to a ridiculous degree where it's taken me an hour or more to get past an encounter.

I consider it time well spent. Let's see if the game really pisses me off somehow from here on.

 

[Desiderius]

I wonder what fan feedback lead to the inclusion of Kingdom management.

The game is called Kingmaker.

I think KM is great though unfinished. Took me awhile to get the hang of it and many of my initial impressions were wrong. It's fun to get things right after being wrong. There's a stretch there where you're effectively locked out of it and I found myself looking forward to getting back to it.

I've come to the conclusion that people under thirty are uncomfortable with reading altogether and probably a little self-conscious about it so anything that requires them to read will provoke a negative initial response.

Designers will likely have to keep this in mind going forward, but an initial impression isn't the only one.

 

[KainenMorden]

I wonder what fan feedback lead to the inclusion of Kingdom management.

The game is called Kingmaker.

I think KM is great though unfinished. Took me awhile to get the hang of it and many of my initial impressions were wrong. It's fun to get things right after being wrong. There's a stretch there where you're effectively locked out of it and I found myself looking forward to getting back to it.

I've come to the conclusion that people under thirty are uncomfortable with reading altogether and probably a little self-conscious about it so anything that requires them to read will provoke a negative initial response.

Designers will likely have to keep this in mind going forward, but an initial impression isn't the only one.

Well, are the kingdom management mechanics seen anywhere else in a crpg or TTrpg?

I'm not sure reading is the issue, beyond the fact that there is no manual for the game that I'm aware of, I think it's more that it just doesn't fit well into a crpg.

Timed quests are one thing. This is something else.

These will always be niche games and I would imagine the "base" of buyers for these games are coming from being fans of the IE games or TTrpgs and many of them also see the kingdom management as strange and pointless.

It's something I'm willing to tolerate because the parts of the game that are actually a crpg are enjoyable.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Well, first, the Kingdom Management is the core part of the game. It was there from the start; however, Owlcat Games went through several iterations. They wanted the kingdom to be the kingdom. As Desiderius mentioned, it can be considered incomplete; building a teleportation network is magical, but also kind of cheap comparing to building roads and bridges. Why cannot we even fix the Nettle's Crossing?!

Second, timed quests are awesome. The stupidity of the EA/Bioware "urgency" (do the main quest the last) becomes obvious when ignoring the real threats to the barony actually destroys that barony. With the "game over" screen.

Third - read, try, fail, think, try again. I find this gameplay cycle much more satisfying than just reading manuals. I use the other's builds as the basis and the source of ideas, though.

 

[KainenMorden]

Well, first, the Kingdom Management is the core part of the game. It was there from the start; however, Owlcat Games went through several iterations. They wanted the kingdom to be the kingdom. As Desiderius mentioned, it can be considered incomplete; building a teleportation network is magical, but also kind of cheap comparing to building roads and bridges. Why cannot we even fix the Nettle's Crossing?!

Second, timed quests are awesome. The stupidity of the EA/Bioware "urgency" (do the main quest the last) becomes obvious when ignoring the real threats to the barony actually destroys that barony. With the "game over" screen.

Third - read, try, fail, think, try again. I find this gameplay cycle much more satisfying than just reading manuals. I use the other's builds as the basis and the source of ideas, though.

To be clear, I understand that the management is based off the table top version. Even in TTrpgs, these types of mechanics are uncommon.

I'm not knocking anyone that enjoys it but it just doesn't fit into a crpg imho. Adding more traditional quests would be fine by me.

I don't think most crpg players would mind if it wasn't there. There are many criticisms of the BG series but I don't recall anyone complaining there was no real strategic layer when you gained a stronghold.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, first, the Kingdom Management is the core part of the game. It was there from the start; however, Owlcat Games went through several iterations. They wanted the kingdom to be the kingdom. As Desiderius mentioned, it can be considered incomplete; building a teleportation network is magical, but also kind of cheap comparing to building roads and bridges. Why cannot we even fix the Nettle's Crossing?!

Second, timed quests are awesome. The stupidity of the EA/Bioware "urgency" (do the main quest the last) becomes obvious when ignoring the real threats to the barony actually destroys that barony. With the "game over" screen.

Third - read, try, fail, think, try again. I find this gameplay cycle much more satisfying than just reading manuals. I use the other's builds as the basis and the source of ideas, though.

To be clear, I understand that the management is based off the table top version. Even in TTrpgs, these types of mechanics are uncommon.

I'm not knocking anyone that enjoys it but it just doesn't fit into a crpg imho. Adding more traditional quests would be fine by me.

I don't think most crpg players would mind if it wasn't there. There are many criticisms of the BG series but I don't recall anyone complaining there was no real strategic layer when you gained a stronghold.

Traditions are collections of innovations that worked. No reason this couldn't have started a new one (and others have noted that previous games have included a stronghold piece), and maybe with crusade in Wrath it will despite the naysayers.

I think KM worked but couldn't overcome the early memes that likely arose from general bugginess at release + lack of tutorial/clear sense of what you were supposed to accomplish with playerbase used to being handheld. The endgame execution wasn't there to incentivize the usual handholders to figure it all out then brag to everybody else.

The opaque curse timer mechanics (and the severity of the penalty for getting it wrong) could also have been a big factor. The (very substantial) rewards for effective kingdom management don't become apparent until a point in the game that comes after the one where most people appear to have given up on it.

 

[Desiderius]

HoMM was a huge success and there is a lot of overlap between people who loved that and also enjoyed the M&M series. No good reason the two can't be effectively integrated in one adventure.

 

[LannTheStupid]

To be clear, I understand that the management is based off the table top version. Even in TTrpgs, these types of mechanics are uncommon.

This is neither what I wrote nor what I meant.

What I meant is that the strategy layer is the idea of Owlcat Games lead designers. That it was there from the start of the development of Kingmaker. AFAIK, there is no analogue in the table top module (which in comparison to the game is absolutely not impressive). So this is Owlcat's - probably Mishulin's himself - vision of the game Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Also, I am pretty confident that it is much more fitting for the local lord to receive petitioners in the throne room instead of when wondering across the wilderness. Surely, some problems require personal attendance; then the Baron gathers her/his personal guard, goes to the location and solves the problem. And then returns to the throne room and behaves like the local lord again.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I'm not knocking anyone that enjoys it but it just doesn't fit into a crpg imho. Adding more traditional quests would be fine by me.

I don't think most crpg players would mind if it wasn't there. There are many criticisms of the BG series but I don't recall anyone complaining there was no real strategic layer when you gained a stronghold.

I completely disagree. It's good to have variation and original (A)D&D rules had progression into being a local lord and commitments as part and parcel of that. I get that CRPGs aren't tabletop, but I found a game giving a nod to that in a real way to be refreshing. Further, in BG2 strongholds are kind of gay. Do your quest related to it, forget about it forever except visiting now and again to pick up whatever gold or items it's generating for you.

Having that sort of base implies that you have resources and commitments related to it, so when games don't do anything with that, it would be better to not have it at all rather than have a huge logic gap about your stuff and its maintenance. Even POE kinda/sorta got around this with its spirit seneschal statue and the upgrades, guards you could hire, possibility of having it attacked, etc.

 

[KainenMorden]

To be clear, I understand that the management is based off the table top version. Even in TTrpgs, these types of mechanics are uncommon.

This is neither what I wrote nor what I meant.

What I meant is that the strategy layer is the idea of Owlcat Games lead designers. That it was there from the start of the development of Kingmaker. AFAIK, there is no analogue in the table top module (which in comparison to the game is absolutely not impressive). So this is Owlcat's - probably Mishulin's himself - vision of the game Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Also, I am pretty confident that it is much more fitting for the local lord to receive petitioners in the throne room instead of when wondering across the wilderness. Surely, some problems require personal attendance; then the Baron gathers her/his personal guard, goes to the location and solves the problem. And then returns to the throne room and behaves like the local lord again.

There is an analogue in the kingmaker adventure path, owlcat based their mechanics off of this but modified it. Yes, the mechanic exists in dnd as well but is not a common practice. Not sure if it was ever very common but Gygax and his friends/family did play with many henchman. So no, it wasn't Owlcat's idea but their implementation is not exactly how it is in table top.

I'm not saying BG2 did it perfectly but you could get the same thematic effect with different questlines. There's no good reason to break up enjoyable crpg play of actually killing monsters, exploring areas, going through dungeons, etc. with it imo.

If some players like it, that's fine but many long time IE and TTrpg players didn't care for it either. Its not a matter of age or reading ability at all. It also sounds like some players had to talk themselves into liking it or enjoying it for its challenge because they enjoyed the rest of the game that, again, plays like a crpg.

I think if it wasn't part of the game, there would be far fewer complaints about the game because it is excellent overall.

There has to be a better way to manage a kingdom without implementing a minigame that is played completely differently from what crpg fans are used to.

The whole point of this game was it being a successor to BG, based off all the usual tenets of crpgs and they did an excellent job but the management just feels out of place.

 

[Desiderius]

It also sounds like some players had to talk themselves into liking it or enjoying it

No, I just said that in the two chapters where you're cut off from it I missed it. How does it take away from adventuring? Once you know what you're doing it takes less time than a single fight. It's more the case that people heard the memes, never figured it out, then missed half the (great) itemization because they never got their artisans up. What's better than finishing up a long dungeon only to return home to find three new powerful/game-changing items waiting for you?

a minigame

The game is called Kingmaker. It's not a minigame, it's the main game. The weird thing is that I spent more time playing Arcomage or Paatak or Gwent than I think I spent on KM in PF:KM. You set up your advisors then head back out to adventure, or if you're advancing a rank that goes quick too in playtime.

 

[KainenMorden]

It also sounds like some players had to talk themselves into liking it or enjoying it

No, I just said that in the two chapters where you're cut off from it I missed it. How does it take away from adventuring? Once you know what you're doing it takes less time than a single fight. It's more the case that people heard the memes, never figured it out, then missed half the (great) itemization because they never got their artisans up. What's better than finishing up a long dungeon only to return home to find three new powerful/game-changing items waiting for you?

a minigame

The game is called Kingmaker. It's not a minigame, it's the main game. The weird thing is that I spent more time playing Arcomage or Paatak or Gwent than I think I spent on KM in PF:KM. You set up your advisors then head back out to adventure, or if you're advancing a rank that goes quick too in playtime.

Any break from adventuring is a mini game. It's a mini game baked into the game whose meat and potatoes is being an excellent successor to BG. The overarching theme is obtaining a kingdom and managing it but the management alone has nothing to do with enjoying the game for what it is. Did you dislike the first act because you had no kingdom to manage?

What do you gain by engaging in a management mini game that you wouldn't gain from actually questing? You could also defeat monsters to obtain them and/or craft powerful items yourself.

Just sounds like you're trying to justify it being there. It's a mechanic I could do without.

 

[Reever]

Any break from adventuring is a mini game.

Is selling your loot a minigame?

 

[Camel]

If someone has played the Cuckmaker module on the tabletop, was the kingdom management as bad and boring there?

 

[Cael]

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

The only fragile thing about Nok-Nok is every enemy that touches him (instant explosion).

His problem is him getting into a position to touch enemies before he is exploded.

 

[Max Damage]

KM sucks monkey balls, it would still suck if the game was called Kill All Fey or something. You get nothing out of it (artisans have nothing to do with KM beyond conquering new land and doing a building/quest), its design is backwards, you have no actual agency as ruler, and the game is worse because you need to do this timesink between the actual fun stuff (dungeons and fights). Also, for acquiring Pitax you don't even get an artisan, almost as if the devs themselves didn't care by this point, but hey, only a couple hundred days more until Ancient Curse Part XIIVXIIVIIV, have fun doing more useless shit that isn't fun or even relevant from the point of minmaxing!