Pathfinder 2e vs. D&D 5e

[Azalin]

Personally I have been out of the pnp for about a decade

 

[J1M]

A shocking lack of interest in this.

 

[Havoc]

Shocking? Nah, 2e is bloated for no other reason than to satisfy the numbers people, who like modifiers up the ass. Pathfinder 1e was a success because it took a game that was bloated, refreshed it and made the rules more streamlined and easier. I don't know what the goal of 2e is.

 

[Morblot]

I don't know what the goal of 2e is.

To make money.

 

[Swigen]

Man, I tried to look up Kurt Wiegel’s opinion on 2e and I just can’t find it. If Kurt Wiegel doesn’t give a shit about 2e, why should I?!?

 

[Curratum]

Man, I tried to look up Kurt Wiegel’s opinion on 2e and I just can’t find it. If Kurt Wiegel doesn’t give a shit about 2e, why should I?!?

Wiegel is fun to watch, even if he often doesn't go too in-depth and is not very informative but, man... Why do you need his opinion for a system whose CORE book is 640 pages long?

 

[Andhaira]

Maybe WOTC secretly bought Pathfinder and this is there behind the scenes play to completely destroy the game line.

 

[Spectacle]

Shocking? Nah, 2e is bloated for no other reason than to satisfy the numbers people, who like modifiers up the ass. Pathfinder 1e was a success because it took a game that was bloated, refreshed it and made the rules more streamlined and easier. I don't know what the goal of 2e is.

For some reason I think there's a limited overlap between hardcore numbers gamers and politically correct SJW gamers. So I'm not sure exactly who the target audience for PF2 is...

 

[udm]

Gender and Pronouns
Source Core Rulebook pg. 29
Characters of all genders are equally likely to become adventurers. Record your character’s gender, if applicable, and their pronouns on the third page of the character sheet.

Their... their pronouns? Has the great xirring of our time arrived Pen and Paper?! What is this

It has happened years ago. The PnP hobby is infested with these weirdos.

Man, I tried to look up Kurt Wiegel’s opinion on 2e and I just can’t find it. If Kurt Wiegel doesn’t give a shit about 2e, why should I?!?

Kurt Wiegel doesn't give a shit about most games these days. That's good, because he's a guy I respect, and the last thing I'd want to see is him pandering to the NPCs or getting harassed by them.

 

[_Vic_]

Pathfinder 2e has a D&D 4e vibe to me, to be honest. Looks like a D&D 4.1 e for the ones that do not want to use D&D5e. Like Pathfinder was a D&D3.75 for the ones that hated the 4e. And that worked well for them.
I´d have to say that the game was also very well made and balanced over the years. They allow playing nicely with miniatures too.

To be honest I´ve yet to play 2e (It came this month) but there is this video of a campaign in pure Pathfinder 2e and seems nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0RypeXjabU

Don't worry, it is not Critical Role, the GM is Jason Bulmahn, one of the creators of the 2e and actually an incredible GM

 

[_Vic_]

About the video, I forgot to say the GM is very good but most of the players are great. You know you have invested players in your campaign if they actually write the games of the characters and places to refer correctly to them

 

[Alex]

The problem is the DM needs some way of knowing what is a trivial check, which take ten accomplishes by saying its any less than or equal to 10+your modifiers, and there's often scaling results (knowledge checks often come a format where they give extra info every 5 you beat the base check by).

Yes, but there's already a way for the DM to know what counts as trivial difficulty: being at least a little bit intelligent and learned.

Well, and genre-savvy. Quickly climbing up a ladder while carrying a heavy load is NOT trivial in a gritty survival horror game when you have a horde of zombies below you. It IS trivial in a wire-fu wuxia game where running on a lake's surface and kicking a dozen flying arrows off target is the "usual" challenge.

The thing is, if a DM is not smart and genre-savvy enough to know what should count as trivial within the internal logic of the genre/game, than he won't be able to run an enjoyable game, not even if the rulebook holds his hand and tells him this one particular thing.

No, look, you are being rather unfair here. I am the farthest thing from a 3e apologist, but the take 10 and take 20 rules make "sense", at least in what they are trying to accomplish. All the take 10 and take 20 rules are doing is giving the DM a measure of what can be accomplished with ease and with care. Take a sage with access to a library. What kind of information is he likely to be able to research in a little while, in a week and in a month? You can easily figure that out by using the CR of different secrets and the take X rules. This simply helps establish what those CR numbers actually mean to the world. If the skill of a blacksmith is greater than the challenge rating of an item, he should be able to produce them quickly (and the DM is free to not even roll for that). If he needs to take 10, then he needs to spend a bigger chunk of time working on them, while needing to take 20 means that it is a slow and somewhat expensive labour..

I actually don't like these take X rules because they try to formalise this idea in a way that is too simple and that works the same way to stuff that is very different from each other. Carefully picking a lock is the same as carefully researching a subject, which is the same as carefully building a boat, etc. Another problem is that the skill ranks coupled with levels are too much of an influence. I think it is really silly to have a master blacksmith also be a level 17 character or something. Also, the d20 used to determine the result of the roll is way too random, I think a 3d6 works better for stuff outside combat.

What did you expect,when leftard sjw propaganda is in everything these days pnp wasn't going to stay unaffected,expect adventures where the villains are all white males while heroes and npcs are only non human non binary characters and fight razism if that isn't the case already

pnp has been this way for a long time, have you people been living under a rock?

It has been a long time since there was anything new and interesting being released. The exceptions usually not tilting much toward SJWism at all.

 

[pakoito]

If you aren't sure what the ethic/aesthetic of OSR gaming is, Matt Finch's "manifesto," A Quick Primer for Old-school Gaming isn't a bad place to start.

In a nutshell:

• Rulings trump "rules"
• Player skill means more than character skill
• You get more experience for recovering loot than you do for killing shit (which is a huge fucking shift in mindset if you spend any time thinking about it).
• Balance isnt really a thing. Players should have to choose whether to run away or press their luck.

So yeah, WoTC era D&D or pathfinder ain't old school.

What game applies well for this guide? If I want to whip up something quick for some PnP n00bs without having to memorize a whole manual? I know I can pull Fanhunter for modern settings, what's the fantasy equivalent?

 

[udm]

You mean OSR fantasy? Try The Black Hack. It's about as noob friendly as can be.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/255088/The-Black-Hack-Second-Edition

I also backed this one on kikestarter called Old-School Essentials but haven't read through the rules yet.

Another one I'm quite eagerly waiting for is Five Torches Deep, though I don't have the faintest clue how crunchy it is.

 

[pakoito]

Not OSR, just any setting. I've seen recommendations for Dungeon World for example.

 

[nikolokolus]

If you aren't sure what the ethic/aesthetic of OSR gaming is, Matt Finch's "manifesto," A Quick Primer for Old-school Gaming isn't a bad place to start.

In a nutshell:

• Rulings trump "rules"
• Player skill means more than character skill
• You get more experience for recovering loot than you do for killing shit (which is a huge fucking shift in mindset if you spend any time thinking about it).
• Balance isnt really a thing. Players should have to choose whether to run away or press their luck.

So yeah, WoTC era D&D or pathfinder ain't old school.

What game applies well for this guide? If I want to whip up something quick for some PnP n00bs without having to memorize a whole manual? I know I can pull Fanhunter for modern settings, what's the fantasy equivalent?

The Primer is mostly just a reference to the way D&D was played in "ye olde days" when D&D was three little brown books, and to give people who've never played it a window into how old-school play differs from WotC era D&D.

If I was going to play a modern game that did a good job of capturing that aesthetic I'd probably use something like Knave. Ideally what I'd be looking for is anything that is minimalist in its rules, that can be easily modified to taste without breaking a bunch of interconnected systems. Caveat: rules-light doesn't necessarily mean simplistic; the GM has a higher burden for adjudicating the outcomes that result from this kind of play. If you aren't comfortable leaning on your own judgement, or extemporizing then it might be a struggle, but if you're the kind of person who prefers rules as a framework instead of needing an explicit rule for every situation, that you can hack and modify to fit your own vision for a setting then I think you can get a lot of mileage out of the Primer (and games like Knave, OD&D, B/X D&D, whatever).

 

[deuxhero]

I saw someone describe PF2E as a system that dumped charisma, and that really is one of the best descriptions I've seen. It may or may not be functional, but there's nothing about it that answers the question "Why would I play this?". It's not fast and simple while retaining variety like like Savage Worlds ("Fast, Furious, Fun" ), fuel for charop nuttery like 3E/PF, or packing the absurd level of extensions and detail of GURPS. It's not built around some unusual genre it would be take extensive work to make another game fit, and it's not based on some licensed property.

 

[DavidBVal]

I saw someone describe PF2E as a system that dumped charisma, and that really is one of the best descriptions I've seen. It may or may not be functional, but there's nothing about it that answers the question "Why would I play this?". It's not fast and simple while retaining variety like like Savage Worlds ("Fast, Furious, Fun" ), fuel for charop nuttery like 3E/PF, or packing the absurd level of extensions and detail of GURPS. It's not built around some unusual genre it would be take extensive work to make another game fit, and it's not based on some licensed property.

Overconfidence about their own "franchise" is the explanation, they still don't understand they failed to create a memorable setting and they're still living off the success of D&D 3.5e

I don't know about younger PnP gamers, but as a grown-up DM with very scarce time and difficulties to gather a group of players which have a job and a family, and can't afford 7h sessions to resolve a single combat. If we wanted that we'd be playing Descent or the like. I want my story to move, I want players to make their choices and roleplay with the support of an udnerlying system that doesn't get in the way, and I want combat to be interesting but not a terrible slog. PF2 would be the contrary of all that, and while D&D 5E is far from perfect, it kind of addresses those things.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You mean OSR fantasy? Try The Black Hack. It's about as noob friendly as can be.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/255088/The-Black-Hack-Second-Edition

FYI, The Black Hack is available under OGL, you can find the content here:
https://the-black-hack.jehaisleprintemps.net/

 

[Kliwer]

You see... From my experience those considerations about RPG systems are domain of people who do not play P&P RPGs... In practice of tabletop adventure you ignore half of the rules (because they are to cumbersome) and you change the other half (to adjust them to your personal style) so basic mechanics are not very important.

From years I DM P&P adventures. I'm using mostly D&D3 (heavily modyfied), Warhammer 1 (heavillu modyfied) and Monastyr RPG (this is very cool dark fantasy system from Poland). I have no wish to buy new books because everything they could improve I improved 10 years ago.

 

[Lagi]

You see... From my experience those considerations about RPG systems are domain of people who do not play P&P RPGs... In practice of tabletop adventure you ignore half of the rules (because they are to cumbersome) and you change the other half (to adjust them to your personal style) so basic mechanics are not very important.

thats true
From my recent game: all the test requested by GM, feels arbitrary.

GM "make X test"
PC "14"
GM" mmmm..... ok you pass"

All the combat is solved before it even start. If NPC have to escape they will always do. If we have to slaughter them all, that will happen, even if we want to speak with "enemy" or capture them or whatever. We encounter once single goblin, and spend lots of effort to NOT kill him.

"I hit him with punch."
"His dead"
" I try resuscitation"
"Its pointless... He has broken skull"

That's why I prefer board games, they are fair.

 

[DavidBVal]

You see... From my experience those considerations about RPG systems are domain of people who do not play P&P RPGs... In practice of tabletop adventure you ignore half of the rules (because they are to cumbersome) and you change the other half (to adjust them to your personal style) so basic mechanics are not very important.

thats true
From my recent game: all the test requested by GM, feels arbitrary.

GM "make X test"
PC "14"
GM" mmmm..... ok you pass"

All the combat is solved before it even start. If NPC have to escape they will always do. If we have to slaughter them all, that will happen, even if we want to speak with "enemy" or capture them or whatever. We encounter once single goblin, and spend lots of effort to NOT kill him.

"I hit him with punch."
"His dead"
" I try resuscitation"
"Its pointless... He has broken skull"

That's why I prefer board games, they are fair.

Your DM sucks.

 

[Lagi]

Your DM sucks.

Is it not the fault of the game as well? pnp RPG (dnd 5ed in my case) rules seems to be detached from their practical application

some sloppy arguments

in our DD5e we get to the point when someone need to make a climbing test. My char background is "smuggler that make the living from climbing the city walls with stuff", who have highest chance to climb? Ofc fat dwarf paladin with highest Str bonus. DM can use some mdf? what about the system support

let say you are the best scout in party. Highest Wis +3, perception +4 and glasses +1... +8 roll D20 to beat medium test 15: Value 1 to 6 you fail. 30% of time.
unless DM said you have an advantage because you was born in forest

Combat: I move here and roll D20, then dear DM if you find it plausible i would roll d8, and you can go ahead pretending you count something in your notebook.

Kliwer is right, the amount of rules in every pnp rpg is close to impossible to use all in some reasonable time, all the more when you try to also make some interesting (=not stuck in one place for half hour) story. Which seems strange because during each board game session we apply even minuscule rule (like when you can add +1, after roll or before). But during board game the game progress is not depend from single brain computing all the data, and processor have a break when its not his turn.

 

[DavidBVal]

Your DM sucks.

Is it not the fault of the game as well? pnp RPG (dnd 5ed in my case) rules seems to be detached from their practical application

some sloppy arguments

in our DD5e we get to the point when someone need to make a climbing test. My char background is "smuggler that make the living from climbing the city walls with stuff", who have highest chance to climb? Ofc fat dwarf paladin with highest Str bonus. DM can use some mdf? what about the system support

let say you are the best scout in party. Highest Wis +3, perception +4 and glasses +1... +8 roll D20 to beat medium test 15: Value 1 to 6 you fail. 30% of time.
unless DM said you have an advantage because you was born in forest

Combat: I move here and roll D20, then dear DM if you find it plausible i would roll d8, and you can go ahead pretending you count something in your notebook.

Kliwer is right, the amount of rules in every pnp rpg is close to impossible to use all in some reasonable time, all the more when you try to also make some interesting (=not stuck in one place for half hour) story. Which seems strange because during each board game session we apply even minuscule rule (like when you can add +1, after roll or before). But during board game the game progress is not depend from single brain computing all the data, and processor have a break when its not his turn.

D&D overall always had the problem of being too random. 1-20 is a big range when you have bonuses that are so small, especially on 5e.

But the thing here is that when you try to climb with DC 15 and roll a 14, it doesn't necessarily mean you fall. Let me quote you the rules:

If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success--the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the GM.

Ffirst of all, as a DM, I'd need to establish the need of a roll at all. The scene must make some sense. "Hur hur, here they roll athletics DC 15 to climb" is boring, as a DM you need something else to make it fun. Are there guards that can maybe detect them? in that case, each round they're stalled trying to climb, increases the chances of detection. Or if they're climbing a huge cliff, force them to accumulate a certain number of success points on sucessive rolls. There's many ways you can make a difference with characters that have +8 and characters that have +2 to a check.

My "Your DM sucks" commentary was mostly about this:

All the combat is solved before it even start. If NPC have to escape they will always do. If we have to slaughter them all, that will happen, even if we want to speak with "enemy" or capture them or whatever. We encounter once single goblin, and spend lots of effort to NOT kill him.
"I hit him with punch."
"His dead"
" I try resuscitation"
"Its pointless... He has broken skull"

When I prepare a game, my players *KNOW* in every battle that the adventure may end. The danger is real. And when I prepare an adventure, I try to anticipate diverse outcomes for every scene instead of shameless railroading. I plan for them escaping, I plan for them being sneaky, for them insulting NPCs and ending up at blows, and everything I can think of. And if they surprise me, I improvise to the best of my ability.

On my last game I had prepared a little fun subplot: a noble house had been betrayed and annihilated, and several survivor NPCs had now rejoined them. Obviously one of them was the traitor and I had a lot of work put into possible clues, deception, cross-accusations, etc. But suddenly one of the players came up with a smart idea to make the traitor betray himself, so of course I handed him the victory he deserved and the NPC was discovered, all my preparations for naught. That's how it works, the DM is not there to read an adventure aloud and roll dice, you have computer games for that. It is hard work, it requires flexibility, humility... and ruthlesness. Players need to know you are a psycopath that will have them killed without a second thought or it just won't work.

That's why I prefer board games, they are fair.

Board games are fun but are a completely different thing. I have so many memorable stories about RPG games over the years... but barely anything worth remembering about board games despite all the games we used to play.

 

[deuxhero]

D&D overall always had the problem of being too random. 1-20 is a big range when you have bonuses that are so small, especially on 5e.

Saga Edition largely addressed this. Bonuses are either +5, or apply to the whole party, and force/destiny points allow rerolls (as did some talents). Autofire was an AoE effect, which allowed most ranged weapon users (NPCs included! A platoon of stormtroopers is lethal to anyone in the open.) to increase ammo consumption in exchange for always dealing at least half damage (unless the target is in cover or has a particular talent), which means dodge save (the system combined reflex save and AC) is useful, and yet not impenetrable. Like pretty much all lessons learned late 3e, WotC ignored it when making 4E.