Incline OSR Games - Official thread

[Melan]

This is great stuff. I have read two of the adventures before release, and played in one at a German con (Slyth Hive); both excellent. The previous collections were also high-tier, and at the price of zero dollahs, not a bad deal.

 

[Bara]

And now for some bullshit here's a example of the preachy nonsense wotc spouting out in the preface in the making of OD&D book by Jason Tondro

But that game content also includes a virtual catalog of insensitive and derogatory language, words that are casually hurtful to anyone with a physical or mental disability, or who happens to be old, fat, non conventionally attractive, indigenous, Black, or a woman.

Some people have charitably ascribed this language to authors working from bad assumptions. In the 1970s, historical wargamers in America were predominately white, middle-class men; it isn't surprising that they would dub a class of soldiers the "fighting-man." But when, in the pages of Greyawhk, the description of the Queen of Chaotic Dragons includes a dig at "Women's Lib," the misogyny is revealed as a conscious choice. It's an unfortunate fact that women seldom appear in original D&D, and when they do, they're usually portrayed disrespectfully.

Slavery appears in original D&D not as a human tragedy that devastated generations over centuries, but as a simple commercial transaction. The cultural appropriation of original D&D rangers from the bewildering (like naming every 6th-level cleric a "lama") to the staggering: Gods, Demi-gods, and Heroes (not reprinted in this book) includes game statistics for sacred figures revered by more than a billion people around the world. Were players were expected to fight Vishnu, one of the principal deities of Hinduism, kill him, and loot his "plus 3 sword of demon slaying"?"

That bit about Vishnu being cultural appropriation and "players were expected to fight Vishnu" is such idiotic nonsense just because they have stats does not mean they're meant to be fought and if you did good luck anyway you morons.

And they did all the deities they could get their hands on in that book. Am I a fan of it no but is it a big deal? God no, I mean that video game Smite even uses them too.

Also for that "dig" he mentions about being misogynistic here it is from the Greyhawk book

There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing).

... how terrible?

As for Jon Peterson's forward he included this bit in the second to last paragraph:

Note that the "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns" that make up original D&D were created by and sold to a wargaming community that was almost exclusively white, middle-class men. The rules compiled here offer little by way of roles for other players, nor indeed for any who wouldn't easily identify with a pulp sword-and-sorcery hero.

Especially before 1974, the rules made light of slavery. In addition to including other harmful content. To reiterate the disclaimer Wizards of the Coast includes on legacy D&D content, "these depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. The content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

Overall is this enough to ruin the book? I wouldn't say so as I can tell they loaded up this stuff in the preface and forward and the rest of the book is just the materials as is.

But I do think I' just going to follow this videos advice on how to print the original OD&D booklets for yourself and treat myself to a better 50th anniversary gift that way.

 

[Cael]

And now for some bullshit here's a example of the preachy nonsense wotc spouting out in the preface in the making of OD&D book by Jason Tondro

But that game content also includes a virtual catalog of insensitive and derogatory language, words that are casually hurtful to anyone with a physical or mental disability, or who happens to be old, fat, non conventionally attractive, indigenous, Black, or a woman.

Some people have charitably ascribed this language to authors working from bad assumptions. In the 1970s, historical wargamers in America were predominately white, middle-class men; it isn't surprising that they would dub a class of soldiers the "fighting-man." But when, in the pages of Greyawhk, the description of the Queen of Chaotic Dragons includes a dig at "Women's Lib," the misogyny is revealed as a conscious choice. It's an unfortunate fact that women seldom appear in original D&D, and when they do, they're usually portrayed disrespectfully.

Slavery appears in original D&D not as a human tragedy that devastated generations over centuries, but as a simple commercial transaction. The cultural appropriation of original D&D rangers from the bewildering (like naming every 6th-level cleric a "lama") to the staggering: Gods, Demi-gods, and Heroes (not reprinted in this book) includes game statistics for sacred figures revered by more than a billion people around the world. Were players were expected to fight Vishnu, one of the principal deities of Hinduism, kill him, and loot his "plus 3 sword of demon slaying"?"

That bit about Vishnu being cultural appropriation and "players were expected to fight Vishnu" is such idiotic nonsense just because they have stats does not mean they're meant to be fought and if you did good luck anyway you morons.

And they did all the deities they could get their hands on in that book. Am I a fan of it no but is it a big deal? God no, I mean that video game Smite even uses them too.

Also for that "dig" he mentions about being misogynistic here it is from the Greyhawk book

There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing).

... how terrible?

As for Jon Peterson's forward he included this bit in the second to last paragraph:

Note that the "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns" that make up original D&D were created by and sold to a wargaming community that was almost exclusively white, middle-class men. The rules compiled here offer little by way of roles for other players, nor indeed for any who wouldn't easily identify with a pulp sword-and-sorcery hero.

Especially before 1974, the rules made light of slavery. In addition to including other harmful content. To reiterate the disclaimer Wizards of the Coast includes on legacy D&D content, "these depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. The content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

Overall is this enough to ruin the book? I wouldn't say so as I can tell they loaded up this stuff in the preface and forward and the rest of the book is just the materials as is.

But I do think I' just going to follow this videos advice on how to print the original OD&D booklets for yourself and treat myself to a better 50th anniversary gift that way.

"If you stat it, they will kill it." I thought every one knows this...

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That bit about Vishnu being cultural appropriation and "players were expected to fight Vishnu" is such idiotic nonsense just because they have stats does not mean they're meant to be fought and if you did good luck anyway you morons.

It's quadruply stupid because Vishnu doesn't have a +3 sword of demon slaying. He wields a mace ffs.

 

[Bara]

"If you stat it, they will kill it." I thought every one knows this...

It's mostly that they were stated so high as the intent was the PCs were not intended to be able to kill them though I think there was some opposition to stating them out in the first place.

Though I may be confusing things up and that might have just been about the AD&D Deities and Demigod book, least the description on dtrpg reads as such

Despite being "just" a supplement, Gygax saw Deities & Demigods as integral to the AD&D line. This was because he thought that GMs were alternately either neglecting deities (by never mentioning them) or abusing them (by bringing them constantly on stage). He wanted to offer a middle-ground where deities could take their proper spot in D&D campaigns as the patrons of clerics and as the exemplars of alignment.


Sadly, despite Gygax's original intent, Deities & Demigods was very much a list of deities that could be killed

 

[Sacibengala]

Overall is this enough to ruin the book? I wouldn't say so as I can tell they loaded up this stuff in the preface and forward and the rest of the book is just the materials as is.

It' s enough to wait for a huuuuge discount, that's for sure. God bless OSR and it's luminaries for it to be a thing. I would have quit the hobby a long time ago if it not existed. In my young age I only had contact with 3e edition, so the game would be dead to me by now.

 

[Bara]

Full agreement, I have the same experience. Started 3E and went backwards then one fella tells me in a B/X game I'm in that OSR/retro-clones exist and people are still making material for the original editions.

I also owe Morblot thanks for explaining things to me in this thread about it. Things would have not been as great as they have been currently for me if he did not.

 

[Melan]

I might be tempted if I didn't already have an OD&D set (god bless the clueless online game store that sold me a fifth printing for $60 plus shipping back in 2006), and several clones of the same. It's obviously got an abundance of archival material. But really, I don't want to undergo the humiliation ritual the editors did just to get that archival material. Unfortunately, I know a lot of old grognards who will buy the book nevertheless because while they don't like WotC's politics at all, they are beaten dogs who will always go back to their master for a tasty treat. "Their" D&D has been dead since the late 1990s (and really, the mid-1980s), but they are lifers.

 

[Alex]

That bit about Vishnu being cultural appropriation and "players were expected to fight Vishnu" is such idiotic nonsense just because they have stats does not mean they're meant to be fought and if you did good luck anyway you morons.

It's quadruply stupid because Vishnu doesn't have a +3 sword of demon slaying. He wields a mace ffs.

Ok, but what is it's bonus?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That bit about Vishnu being cultural appropriation and "players were expected to fight Vishnu" is such idiotic nonsense just because they have stats does not mean they're meant to be fought and if you did good luck anyway you morons.

It's quadruply stupid because Vishnu doesn't have a +3 sword of demon slaying. He wields a mace ffs.

Ok, but what is it's bonus?

Double digits conservatively

 

[Bara]

The Fight On! Zine is back with issue 15 and a bundle on drive thru rpg for issues 1 - 14.

Also Matt Finch doing a kickstarter for a Tome of Worldbuilding now.


Not entirely sold on it as I've been happy with the old World Builder's guidebook as my go to.

Though I've been happy with the Tome of Adventure design so I'm going to give it a go.

 

[ind33d]

I sold all my 3.5 and 5e D&D books because WOTC has been getting on my fucking nerves. Maybe I'll try to find a Pathfinder 1e game sometime

 

[Melan]

The Tome of Adventure Design has been super-useful in making dungeons (its material on wilderness and city adventures is less developed), so the worldbuilding book should be useful too. Matt is generally a master of random tables. Making a good one that's actually helpful for the creative process is not as easy as it sounds; I have done some, but much fewer than Matt.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You know, I would love to see OSR-esque movements for other genres. There’s a ton of old rpgs and settings from the 80s, 90s and 2000s that are great but remain trapped in obscurity because of copyright. TSR explored postapoc, scifi and modern genres in settings like Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Urban Arcana, etc.

 

[Old One]

I always found Gamma World intriguing, even though I never played it. I loved the art and the mutations and stuff.

Star Frontiers was interesting too. Again, I never played it.