MUDs/MMORPGs: play a while.. leave.. What's going on?

[Norfleet]

Yeah, it was the early days when everything was PTP. We are the opposite. If it says "FTP", I avoid it like the plague as well. Never liked a single FTP game.

Does that only apply if there's a pay-to-win store, or are you repelled from the game even if the purchaseables are cosmetic-only, or even if there's no money involved at all?

My objection to pay-to-play is that it turns the game into a business venture, one which I know nothing about, and therefore cannot decide it if is even a worthy investment. With F2P, I can choose whether or not I wish to invest anything and decide after I have some idea what the game is even REALLY about whether or not this is going to prove to be a profitable investment. Or I could not dump any money on it and just play the game without having to view it as a business venture, because that's what happens if money is involved: It's no longer just a game, it's business now. It's just like how when you pay for Internet (generally on a per-month basis), instead of using freebie dialup, you are no longer allowed to disconnect, ever, because that would be wasting Internet. On top of that, your Internet must now generate enough money to pay for itself, or you're not getting a return on your investment. Freebie dialup has no such obligation. I don't have to generate a minimum of $50 a month from my Internet if I'm using free dialup.

 

[Xenich]

Yeah, it was the early days when everything was PTP. We are the opposite. If it says "FTP", I avoid it like the plague as well. Never liked a single FTP game.

Does that only apply if there's a pay-to-win store, or are you repelled from the game even if the purchaseables are cosmetic-only, or even if there's no money involved at all?

My objection to pay-to-play is that it turns the game into a business venture, one which I know nothing about, and therefore cannot decide it if is even a worthy investment. With F2P, I can choose whether or not I wish to invest anything and decide after I have some idea what the game is even REALLY about whether or not this is going to prove to be a profitable investment. Or I could not dump any money on it and just play the game without having to view it as a business venture, because that's what happens if money is involved: It's no longer just a game, it's business now. It's just like how when you pay for Internet (generally on a per-month basis), instead of using freebie dialup, you are no longer allowed to disconnect, ever, because that would be wasting Internet. On top of that, your Internet must now generate enough money to pay for itself, or you're not getting a return on your investment. Freebie dialup has no such obligation. I don't have to generate a minimum of $50 a month from my Internet if I'm using free dialup.

It is because FTP games focus is to drive people to the store. So, content is designed with the store in mind which results in gimmicks, excessive unrewarding grinds to sell convenience items (ie LoTRO Legendary lotto grinds or use the store to get what you want quickly), etc... It is always subtle at start, though gets more pronounced with time. I can stand a PTP game that goes FTP for a "short while", but not a FTP game from the start. Games like Allods Online and Perfect World, major store based incentive content (not to mention massive PTW). See, 15 bucks a month for a game is not a lot to spend, so it isn't a major loss and the benefit of the game being PTP is that all content is designed to try and keep you playing, to keep you buying new expansions.

As for the internet example, you pay for the speed (well I do). I can have internet at 3mb down and pay only 15 bucks a month, but I am only guaranteed a certain level of bandwidth (your CIR is not always the same as the product sale description), if I want faster, I pay more. If I do "freebie" dialup, there is no CIR contract and what I get is what they decide to give me. My speeds are likely to be crap, unreliable, etc... if they go down... they aren't beholden to me, so.. well.. tough shit.

You get what you pay for is basically the thing. Sure, you are "free" to choose without any obligation, but as I said, you paid nothing, there is no obligation on their part.

nOt a great analogy to use internet though. It really is kind of apples to oranges. Like I said though, FTP games need people to use the store and that means content will be designed to encourage that.

 

[Norfleet]

It is because FTP games focus is to drive people to the store. So, content is designed with the store in mind which results in gimmicks, excessive unrewarding grinds to sell convenience items (ie LoTRO Legendary lotto grinds or use the store to get what you want quickly), etc... It is always subtle at start, though gets more pronounced with time.

But...that's sort of what I like! I LIKE that people are being driven to buy things, just so that I can be smug about it when I RESIST THE URGE, or even outright sell them those things in the Auction House. Or acquire them from the Auction House. But often, it is done badly. Especially if there's no Auction House. I can see your point here. As long as I can still have it for free, though, I'm unbothered how others get it.

But does it still apply if this is not the case, such as if there is no store at all? Free MUDs did not have stores.

I can stand a PTP game that goes FTP for a "short while"

I tend to ignore anything "for a short awhile". They do not fundamentally change the nature of things. I must still find a way to ultimately recoup my investment, and getting established into such a thing inevitably takes longer than the "short while" offered.

See, 15 bucks a month for a game is not a lot to spend, so it isn't a major loss and the benefit of the game being PTP is that all content is designed to try and keep you playing, to keep you buying new expansions.

Well, it's not a lot to spend, but on the other hand, how much can you GET? A loss is still a loss. Unless I know enough about it that I already know how to recoup my investment, it's still a loss. I don't play for losses. Everything I do has to cover its own costs. Otherwise I LOSE MONEY, AND THAT IS BAD.

 

[Xenich]

But...that's sort of what I like! I LIKE that people are being driven to buy things, just so that I can be smug about it when I RESIST THE URGE, or even outright sell them those things in the Auction House. Or acquire them from the Auction House. But often, it is done badly. Especially if there's no Auction House. I can see your point here. As long as I can still have it for free, though, I'm unbothered how others get it.

That is because you are insane. *chuckle* While I can understand your point about being able to rub it in the faces of the pay to win lemmings, to me it is more work than it is worth. That is, the reward of being smug just doesn't do it for me.

But does it still apply if this is not the case, such as if there is no store at all? Free MUDs did not have stores.'

Free MUDs are usually hobbies, labors of love, experiments, etc... the people making them don't do them for the money, so there is no incentive to design content to steer people to the store to increase revenues. Like I said, with a PTP game, all they want is you to keep subing and buying expansions. There is no other focus.

I tend to ignore anything "for a short awhile". They do not fundamentally change the nature of things. I must still find a way to ultimately recoup my investment, and getting established into such a thing inevitably takes longer than the "short while" offered.

Yep, which is why about the time you are heading into the game, I am heading out when a game goes FTP.

Well, it's not a lot to spend, but on the other hand, how much can you GET? A loss is still a loss. Unless I know enough about it that I already know how to recoup my investment, it's still a loss. I don't play for losses. Everything I do has to cover its own costs. Otherwise I LOSE MONEY, AND THAT IS BAD.

Well, there isn't a loss unless the services sold are not as advertised (now this I will agree with you, some games I was totally sold a lame duck with its bullshit hype). If what is advertised is what I seek, then what I spend is exactly what I was looking for and so there isn't any loss.

 

[Norfleet]

That is because you are insane. *chuckle* While I can understand your point about being able to rub it in the faces of the pay to win lemmings, to me it is more work than it is worth. That is, the reward of being smug just doesn't do it for me.

Ah, but it's not just the reward of being smug, it's the reward of taking their money, leaving them eternally impoverished while I grow richer.

Free MUDs are usually hobbies, labors of love, experiments, etc... the people making them don't do them for the money, so there is no incentive to design content to steer people to the store to increase revenues.

But is it still an evil "F2P" game if it is not a P2W game?

Like I said, with a PTP game, all they want is you to keep subing and buying expansions. There is no other focus.

If both games are all about attempting to suck more money out of you, what's the difference? It seems to me that F2P is better here since I don't *HAVE* to. I can always RESIST. By the time I really, truly, need to buy anything to progress effectively, I may have already established a revenue-generating infrastructure in-game that will let me afford these things without a loss, like STO's dilithium farming.

Well, there isn't a loss unless the services sold are not as advertised (now this I will agree with you, some games I was totally sold a lame duck with its bullshit hype). If what is advertised is what I seek, then what I spend is exactly what I was looking for and so there isn't any loss.

Some? Try most...

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Ok, so I'm googling about "WoW" and "clone" and "failed to beat"... Want to share how I read a forum link...

I click on this forum link and I agree with this commenter:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.264028.10001960

WoW has been around too long and their is that time value that players put into it that will just make them quit for ever "WoW-killer" that comes out. Problem with MMOs are that developers will either just clone WoW which leads to people just saying "why play a knock off when original is so much better?". Or they will try to much innovation and end up just botching it horribly for not understanding what an MMO crowd wants.

But I also like this post, just a few below the other one:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.264028.10001970

i have never played WOW as im happy playing EvE Online, where im in a null sec (PvP) alliance which owns a large percentage of the game map. I also like that a PvP victory has some meaning (aka they loose money and possibly territory)

in my eyes eve is better than wow, but this just an opinion as is your post.

I'm nodding some what at the one below too:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.264028.10001994

it's simple; most people can only afford to play one MMO at a time. And because of it's success, it can easily hold the lead over any game in the same genre. One of the Extra Credits videos explains it better.

So here're the some things I'm agreeing with:
1) Players invest a lot of time in WoW, so don't want to start over in a new MMO
2) Another MMO is so much like WoW it offers no compelling reason to leave WoW
3) You don't like WoW; you instead play something which has "beaten" it in your mind
4) Player has a (prepaid) year subscription in WoW and loses interest in another MMO because doesn't want to spend more cash
5) WoW's success gives it a huge advantage because it's so well known - it advertises itself by existing

At the end of it, I'm left feeling the same way when I made the OP. A game needs to be special to you. Like someone in the forum said (*), players won't be turned away from WoW and drawn to SWTOR unless there's something big, like if they're a star wars fan. There needs to be a hook!!! Of course, we know now SWTOR didn't beat WoW. It did have some success, though.

What's that hook? It's hte magic. It's whatever miracle allowed Dances With Wolves to be known so famously, despite all of the tragedy which seemed to follow it. Kevin Costner invested 3 million dollars of his own money because prospects were dim.

And it's not just the magic either. WoW has to beat itself. I'm convinced it'll get old and do exactly that. The population will fragment and shelter amongst the many MMO's. Eventually another big MMO will emerge. No telling how big it'll be.

And like one poster said, it can be subjective too. If Eve-Online beats WoW in your mind then OK.

* - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.264028.10002064

 

[Norfleet]

It seems to me that if you want your MMO to succeed in a market where people are already playing other MMOs, you'll need something that can be played WHILE they're playing said other MMO, so that they don't have to choose between them. Since, obviously, if you have to choose between the devil you know and the one you don't, you go with what you already know. You already know what you're doing there and already know what your return on investment will be.

 

[Xenich]

That is because you are insane. *chuckle* While I can understand your point about being able to rub it in the faces of the pay to win lemmings, to me it is more work than it is worth. That is, the reward of being smug just doesn't do it for me.

Ah, but it's not just the reward of being smug, it's the reward of taking their money, leaving them eternally impoverished while I grow richer.

I thought we were talking about them using the store and you not? ie they paying to get ahead while you did it all for free? That was my point.

Free MUDs are usually hobbies, labors of love, experiments, etc... the people making them don't do them for the money, so there is no incentive to design content to steer people to the store to increase revenues.

But is it still an evil "F2P" game if it is not a P2W game?

No, it is a hobby game (a truly FREE game). Emulator games are "hobby" games. The main interest of the developers is the game, the content, etc... there isn't a gimmick in content because there is no incentive to drive you to do anything other than play, to experience what they created, added, etc... In many ways, those types of games are often better than the commercial games because they are ran out of a true labor of love. Though those games are not the same as a FTP game. FTP and PTP games are commercial games, sold for a profit. What we are discussing is FTP vs PTP and their focus, to which both are profit seeking ventures, but one is only concerned with keeping its customers while the other is concerned with trying to "business" the players. When you said PTP games are all about business, I think you are mistaken. Like I said, they just want to keep you playing. The FTP game has a nefarious purpose, to keep you playing and buying from the store. The FTP game isn't satisfied with you just playing, they have to up sell you with all of their gimmicks. Personally, I dislike the used car salesman style of business which is what FTP is. Now you may enjoy the "game of gaming their game", more power to ya, but I am not interested in political/manipulation games in the slightest.

Like I said, with a PTP game, all they want is you to keep subing and buying expansions. There is no other focus.

If both games are all about attempting to suck more money out of you, what's the difference? It seems to me that F2P is better here since I don't *HAVE* to. I can always RESIST. By the time I really, truly, need to buy anything to progress effectively, I may have already established a revenue-generating infrastructure in-game that will let me afford these things without a loss, like STO's dilithium farming.

One is only concerned with keeping you subbing. That means they try to entice you with content that you want to keep playing. The quality of the content being high is very important to that success. With FTP, the idea is to get you to spend as much money as possible in the store because you are annoyed with the games mechanics (long grinds, and annoying features). For instance, with Allods, they essentially make you sit on your ass and wait out a timer for rez, or.. you can pay real money to rez instantly. These are the types of features that drive the games design. Everything becomes "how can we make the game boring and grindy for a free player, but make the game play at a fast easy pace if they pay money". Every game feature from rezing, to death penalties, to repairs, to movement, to storage space, to travel, all become a pop up add to get you to pay or be annoyed. That is the focus of FTP games, it is just that games like Allods are what they all become eventually.

Like I said, with PTP, they offer a bulk service, I accept it or not, no more gimmicks. Their goal is to keep me interested in the game, not annoy me till I pay money in the store.

Well, there isn't a loss unless the services sold are not as advertised (now this I will agree with you, some games I was totally sold a lame duck with its bullshit hype). If what is advertised is what I seek, then what I spend is exactly what I was looking for and so there isn't any loss.

Some? Try most...

More of an issue on the newer games. The older ones were pretty straight forward, though that was before mainstream entertainment companies started buying out and playing gimmick sales tactics.

 

[Xenich]

It seems to me that if you want your MMO to succeed in a market where people are already playing other MMOs, you'll need something that can be played WHILE they're playing said other MMO, so that they don't have to choose between them. Since, obviously, if you have to choose between the devil you know and the one you don't, you go with what you already know. You already know what you're doing there and already know what your return on investment will be.

That is what FTP does. It serves the game hoppers. That way they can hop from game to game as the boredom of each pathetic game they play sets in (which is quick and why they hop so frequently). For me, I want a game that those types will hate. If they hate it, they won't get near it (most of them disliked EQ and vanguard, which is the type of game I am looking for).

 

[Norfleet]

I thought we were talking about them using the store and you not? ie they paying to get ahead while you did it all for free? That was my point.

Well, a common, and particularly liked, paradigm, is that people will pay-to-win, in the form of buying something from the pay-to-win store, but since the selection is fairly limited, they will then pawn it on the auction house for money to buy the real things they want out of it. This means that I can not only acquire those items cheap, but also take their money in the process by selling them the junk they want to get.

When you said PTP games are all about business, I think you are mistaken.

No, I mean, that *I* have to treat it like a business now. If I have to put money into something, now I need to look at return on investment: How do I get my money BACK? Otherwise I'm just losing money, and how does this benefit me?

The FTP game has a nefarious purpose, to keep you playing and buying from the store. The FTP game isn't satisfied with you just playing, they have to up sell you with all of their gimmicks. Personally, I dislike the used car salesman style of business which is what FTP is. Now you may enjoy the "game of gaming their game", more power to ya, but I am not interested in political/manipulation games in the slightest.

Well, it depends on the game. There's good F2P, bad F2P. The good kind is where I don't have to pay anything if I simply BUILD MORE FARMS.

Everything becomes "how can we make the game boring and grindy for a free player, but make the game play at a fast easy pace if they pay money". Every game feature from rezing, to death penalties, to repairs, to movement, to storage space, to travel, all become a pop up add to get you to pay or be annoyed. That is the focus of FTP games, it is just that games like Allods are what they all become eventually.

Well, like I said. It depends. If I can conquer the things intended to be annoying, then we're cooking with gas.

Like I said, with PTP, they offer a bulk service, I accept it or not, no more gimmicks. Their goal is to keep me interested in the game, not annoy me till I pay money in the store.

Yeah, but here's the thing: I fundamentally dislike "services". I want THINGS. I have only EVER bought THINGS. If it is not a THING, then I look at it in terms of an investment, because I am not getting a THING. Does this "service" produce profit? If not, then what good is it, since I do not get a thing, so at the end of the day, they have my money and I have nothing? With F2P, I don't have to do anything, since they never actually sell me a thing. Plus there are usually ways to grind those not-really-a-things. Plus, the concept of stupid: When you pay for a service, you do so, so that you don't have to do that thing, because you can get better money for your time doing something else, so you hire someone else to do that thing and use the time you save to generate a larger profit to pay that off. But playing games means you don't have anything better to do with your time. On top of that, when you pay, YOU STILL HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF ANYWAY. So what the hell is the point?

With this in mind, the F2P model simply makes more sense: You pay money, just like everywhere else, so you don't have to do something. Paying money and then having to do it yourself anyway is dumb.

 

[Xenich]

Yeah, but here's the thing: I fundamentally dislike "services". I want THINGS. I have only EVER bought THINGS. If it is not a THING, then I look at it in terms of an investment, because I am not getting a THING. Does this "service" produce profit? If not, then what good is it, since I do not get a thing, so at the end of the day, they have my money and I have nothing? With F2P, I don't have to do anything, since they never actually sell me a thing. Plus there are usually ways to grind those not-really-a-things. Plus, the concept of stupid: When you pay for a service, you do so, so that you don't have to do that thing, because you can get better money for your time doing something else, so you hire someone else to do that thing and use the time you save to generate a larger profit to pay that off. But playing games means you don't have anything better to do with your time. On top of that, when you pay, YOU STILL HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF ANYWAY. So what the hell is the point?

With this in mind, the F2P model simply makes more sense: You pay money, just like everywhere else, so you don't have to do something. Paying money and then having to do it yourself anyway is dumb.

That is the problem. You are trying to "make money" (ie time/value) in a business since on games. My question is... are you earning a living on them? I mean, you have made the argument how you are all about money, about getting ahead, etc... about making it worth your investment, etc...

My question is... why the fuck are you playing games? No offense Norfleet, but with your mentality, why the fuck are you wasting it with digital bits? You talk about winning and yet here you are in a a pathetic fucking game forum going on about how you destroy games with your ingenious understanding of systems and all I can think of is the homeless guy rattling on how he could be ruler of the world!

Get off your lazy fucking pathetic ass and go do something in the real world.

 

[Norfleet]

My question is... why the fuck are you playing games?

Beats sitting around waiting to die, keeps you mentally active, which is supposed to ward off Oldtimers. I only get to do so many things a day on the regular stock market, in a game I can always just construct additional pylons.

No offense Norfleet, but with your mentality, why the fuck are you wasting it with digital bits?

I've always liked digital bits and I'm retired now, so I can do that.

You talk about winning and yet here you are in a a pathetic fucking game forum going on about how you destroy games with your ingenious understanding of systems and all I can think of is the homeless guy rattling on how he could be ruler of the world!

Hah, if only being ruler of the world was a realistic option. Alas, as much as I would like to, there are serious issues involved in trying to take over the world, not the least of which is that it's full of people, far too many to exterminate with robot armies.

Get off your lazy fucking pathetic ass and go do something in the real world.

I did. I've had my role in the rise and fall of (admittedly crappy third-world) governments. I've earned a comfortable retirement in which people pay me not to do things anymore. Now I play video games in my old age.

But really, the main thing about P2P games is that fundamentally violate the notion of what it even is to be a service. In a service, you pay money, in exchange for NOT HAVING TO DO A THING. This means the F2P model makes sense: If I pay money, I get something which allows me to not do something. With P2P...I'd pay money...and I still have to do that thing. I haven't managed to avoid anything by doing so. WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT?