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Decline MTG: Commander Format is Awful

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Commander precons is propably the best precon product wotc has made. You can actually take a precon to an fnm and have fun and maybe even win a game.

Intro decks on the hand sucked ass. Wotc purposefully made them bad. No wonder nobody wanted to buy them.
without starter decks, is there even a way for a hypothetical customer to find the rules of the fucking game? i literally don't think there is. if you buy a booster box in 2024, you end up with a stack of cardboard cut-outs of naked gay men and no clue what you're supposed to do with them. it's like those uncontacted aztecs who think you carve a runway and airplanes will spawn
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,646
I got into magic for one standard cycle before my decks got phased out. My understanding is that people played Commander because the only alternative that people actually play is Standard.

And Standard requires you to constantly stay up to date with shit and then you end up throwing away shoeboxes full of cards and perfectly good decks because of the shift in the standard cycle, and that was just way too much for me to deal with. Standard was definitely the most fun, until you can't play your deck and have to throw it in a shoebox and buy a brand new fucking deck.

From what people told me, Modern and Legacy are ass because there's too many broken combos. Which just tells me that Wizards is a shitty company that designs their product specifically to create artificial churn by power creeping and/or releasing combos that are intentionally broken when used in tandem with prior editions. You have to keep pace with the window or you end up dealing with utter nonsense decks. Commander regulates this by allowing you to have one of a card from any edition in a 100 minimum size deck, which limits the amount of excess that would naturally result from having 4 of any one card in a 60 deck.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,603
From what people told me, Modern and Legacy are ass because there's too many broken combos. Which just tells me that Wizards is a shitty company that designs their product specifically to create artificial churn by power creeping and/or releasing combos that are intentionally broken when used in tandem with prior editions. You have to keep pace with the window or you end up dealing with utter nonsense decks.
There is a design team that's supposed to filter that, so I suppose you could call it intentional, but when you have decades worth of cards it gets pretty difficult to foresee each and every interaction,
especially some really niche shit everyone forgot was ever printed like Mycosynth Lettuce.
I can sympathize that it can be a bad experience if one just wants to play out their little piles of cards without ever interacting with the opponent... and then boom, the combo deck announces that the game is over.
And power creep means it will happen on turn 3, sometimes earlier.

Well, if commander was supposed to be a solution to that, to me that is like treating cancer with ebola. IMO the game already struggles with land draws randomly screwing you and adding additional randomness on top is nuts.
To me, the format's main appeal is the delicate power balance achieved through multiplayer - someone's bound to have an interaction at the moment, so you can't brute force a win, it needs to be sneaked through.

In contrast, what I personally like about older formats is that you get all these tools to manage RNG - fetchlands into shocklands means mana screw is completely preventable and a four color deck is no biggie.
There's also plenty of cheap deck manipulation. If having to interact with the opponent is the price to pay, so be it.
The problem is there's a lot of avenues to cover - graveyard strategies will need a different answer, land-based win conditions need another, storm strategies need something else entirely.
Sometimes you will need a duress and another time a counterspell. Standard sorta works as a Bo1 format (though looking at the current delayed rotation... yeah, not really), but I cannot fathom playing an extended format without sideboards.
 

illuknisaa

Cipher
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
686
Commander precons is propably the best precon product wotc has made. You can actually take a precon to an fnm and have fun and maybe even win a game.

Intro decks on the hand sucked ass. Wotc purposefully made them bad. No wonder nobody wanted to buy them.
without starter decks, is there even a way for a hypothetical customer to find the rules of the fucking game? i literally don't think there is. if you buy a booster box in 2024, you end up with a stack of cardboard cut-outs of naked gay men and no clue what you're supposed to do with them. it's like those uncontacted aztecs who think you carve a runway and airplanes will spawn
My guess is new people get introduced through either mtg arena or friends. Some gaming stores also give demos (I think you even get a free 30-40 card deck) and organize events for new players.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
Well, if commander was supposed to be a solution to that, to me that is like treating cancer with ebola. IMO the game already struggles with land draws randomly screwing you and adding additional randomness on top is nuts.
Commander's original name is Elder Dragon Highlander (EDH). It came about because judges were bored at events and wanted a way to play big dumb cards you couldn't any where else. So they took the Elder dragon cycle of legends and made 100 card singleton decks around them. Cards that were literally unplayable pack filler suddenly became good in this format and the amount of legends you could try made for a lot of fun deck building choices. If you wanted a sweaty EDH table you could all run tutors and counters and fight over what resolved. If you wanted to have Godzilla fights and see who was the alpha Timmy then you could do that as well. The format wasn't designed to be a solution to anything, it was just a way to use cards you couldn't use else where but you thought were fun. 40 life, table politics and always having a commander to work with opened up so much play space compared to 20 life 1v1. Over time Wizards took notice of the format, added it to MTGO and then started printing cards for it. Which is when the whole format falls apart because intentionally printing powerful multiplayer cards undermines the entire concept of EDH. It's finding ways to make big swingy cards playable or letting you cast chaos warp or whatever it's called. And as soon as you start saying "Hey wouldn't this be powerful enough to beat 3 other people?" you immediately destroy the original concept and you're left with Commander pre-cons destroying the format for profit.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,971
Location
Flowery Land
Chaos Warp is one of the better designed made for Commander cards and wouldn't really be out of place in Modern (where there's already better ways to cheat stuff into play, but it's an acceptable option for mono-red removal).
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
if anyone at WOTC had a brain they would revert standard rotation and drop Commander for making Two-Headed Giant an FNM format with prize support

at least in team 2v2 it's not considered "rude" to try to win like in FFA

what a bunch of imbeciles
 

Beans00

Erudite
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
1,714
Imagine playing MTG after onslaught/Mirroden turned the game into yugioh lol.

Anyone still playing should have quit 20 years ago.
 

alexthegreat

Literate
Joined
Jul 4, 2024
Messages
9
I am a regular EDH player and i have been playing the format before WOTC started making product for it. It was a fun format where you can throw in a whole bunch of junk and bulk rares that you got from drafting and make a deck. Since WOTC started making product for it (well maybe after the third commander decks were released), it has been down hill since. I still play with a dedicated group of friends and frankly speaking that's how it should be played. If WOTC had any common sense they would slow down all of the product releases. It honestly is WAY too much. Another thing, the whole universes beyond thing is just bull shit. I don't want to face off against a My Little Pony deck or a Doctor Who deck. It just doesn't fit the flavor.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
I am a regular EDH player and i have been playing the format before WOTC started making product for it. It was a fun format where you can throw in a whole bunch of junk and bulk rares that you got from drafting and make a deck. Since WOTC started making product for it (well maybe after the third commander decks were released), it has been down hill since. I still play with a dedicated group of friends and frankly speaking that's how it should be played. If WOTC had any common sense they would slow down all of the product releases. It honestly is WAY too much. Another thing, the whole universes beyond thing is just bull shit. I don't want to face off against a My Little Pony deck or a Doctor Who deck. It just doesn't fit the flavor.
they should have just used Universes Beyond as a skin for intro packs and event decks to get new people into the game, like a Rakdos Vampires deck with art from Vampire: the Masquerade or Dragonstorm with Skyrim dragons. the average person doesn't even know how to play magic, why would WOTC promote commander, a multiplayer clusterfuck with 200 cards in play at all times where it's considered offensive to win? how did they think this was going to go?
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,876
Who the fuck thinks its offensive to win?

You set tiers for decks so you can brew with more cards than just the busted ones, you make a deck that fits the tier level you wanna play at, then you play to win.

Its zero issue in my playgroup and zero issue in the club i'm occasionally playing at. If someone pubstombs, mostly by accident, you talk about it afterwards and tell him to grab a lower powered deck or get out your higher power stuff.

I dont get how its possible to create drama in this format. The only thing that sucks is players who forget to include wincons in their decks and just durdle for 5 turns with a dominating boardstate. But those players can be avoided, or again, be talked with about the issue.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
Who the fuck thinks its offensive to win?
Casual EDH players get upset when a player wins too early. They want the game to last long enough for them to do something cool. Which creates weird social dynamics where you're supposed to not try to win until everyone's had a turn to do something cool and if you win too fast you're a dick. It's weird tabletop social contract stuff that usually means the person whining didn't communicate what they were expecting.
 

alexthegreat

Literate
Joined
Jul 4, 2024
Messages
9
A game has got to end SOMETIME. When I sit down I try my best to win the game. Now am I building decks that are thousands of dollars. Nope I and I don't typically spend more that 5 bucks on a card. MAYBE 10 if I REALLY want it. The other night one of the other players i was playing with apologized for winning the game. I was like "Never apologize for winning a game, it lasted long enough anyway." It was like a 40is minute game too.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,863
Location
The Present
A game has got to end SOMETIME. When I sit down I try my best to win the game. Now am I building decks that are thousands of dollars. Nope I and I don't typically spend more that 5 bucks on a card. MAYBE 10 if I REALLY want it. The other night one of the other players i was playing with apologized for winning the game. I was like "Never apologize for winning a game, it lasted long enough anyway." It was like a 40is minute game too.
Damn. Decks that expensive just aren't necessary. You have to really go after some broken pay-to-win cards to reach those numbers. When I started playing in 2008, I had a rule for no deck to be more than $30 (ish). My decks these days run closer to averaging $50 due to inflation and the commodification of the game. I have some faerie tribal decks that I've kept updated over the years which have crept up into a couple hundred dollars, but they're not even my best ones. I host a magic group where we play legacy. Anything but Commander, at least. I built five teaching decks to epitomize each color and give newer players a sense of how the game operates. I also built them to show that the game doesn't have to be pay-to-win. Here are some examples.

4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Celestial Unicorn
4 Diamond Mare
4 Healer's Hawk
4 Soul Warden
4 Benevolent Blessing
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Recumbent Bliss
4 Soul Tithe
4 Spirit Link
20 Plains

Depending on how I mix the sideboard for this white deck (Brave the Sands instead of Soul Tithe), it might creep up to $60. As shown, nearly 25% of this deck's $45ish price tag is Soul Warden. I don't think I've ever lost with this deck. It's super simple and focuses on what White does best, synergizing as much as possible.

4 Generous Visitor
4 Herald of the Pantheon
4 Sanctum Weaver
4 Setessan Champion
4 Verduran Enchantress
4 Hydra's Growth
4 Khalni Heart Expedition
4 Ordeal of Nylea
4 Primeval Bounty
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
20 Forest

I think this one has a price tag around $65. It goes absolutely bananas with ramp. Pumping several hundred dollars into this deck just wouldn't do it any good. It's very vulnerable to control and I have sideboard for that, but the point of the deck is to illustrate green is the color of MOAR. It does that very well and is a force to be reckoned with without breaking the bank.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
A game has got to end SOMETIME. When I sit down I try my best to win the game. Now am I building decks that are thousands of dollars. Nope I and I don't typically spend more that 5 bucks on a card. MAYBE 10 if I REALLY want it. The other night one of the other players i was playing with apologized for winning the game. I was like "Never apologize for winning a game, it lasted long enough anyway." It was like a 40is minute game too.
40 minutes isn't a very long game if 4 people are playing it. That's less play time than your average 1 on 1 game lasts.
 

alexthegreat

Literate
Joined
Jul 4, 2024
Messages
9
I am a regular EDH player and i have been playing the format before WOTC started making product for it. It was a fun format where you can throw in a whole bunch of junk and bulk rares that you got from drafting and make a deck. Since WOTC started making product for it (well maybe after the third commander decks were released), it has been down hill since. I still play with a dedicated group of friends and frankly speaking that's how it should be played. If WOTC had any common sense they would slow down all of the product releases. It honestly is WAY too much. Another thing, the whole universes beyond thing is just bull shit. I don't want to face off against a My Little Pony deck or a Doctor Who deck. It just doesn't fit the flavor.
let me correct myself, i don't spend thousands of dollars. Now I have a friend who does/did. He just inventoried his cards recently and it clocked in at tens of thousands of dollars. Granted most of the card he got was when the game was starting out, but my point still stands. The format is becoming less about bulk rares that have no other use in any other formats and more about what ever wizards of the cost shits out in the latest set in order to appeal to commander players. The game was WAY better off when it was an unrecognized format by WOTC.
 

Finster

Literate
Joined
Jul 19, 2024
Messages
9
Location
Valinor
Commander games take too long. It could be just my friend group, since they're all "slow" players. But I had to switch to a 60 card format, couldn't stand it anymore. Playing vintage now, really enjoy it. I don't want a round to last longer than 45 minutes tops. I rather play multiple rounds and switch decks inbetween.

I think EDH allows players to express their autism more intensively than other formats. That can be good or bad. The best but also the worst games I ever played were commander. Ultimately, I want to keep bad experiences short so I settled for a faster format.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Commander games take too long. It could be just my friend group, since they're all "slow" players. But I had to switch to a 60 card format, couldn't stand it anymore. Playing vintage now, really enjoy it. I don't want a round to last longer than 45 minutes tops. I rather play multiple rounds and switch decks inbetween.

I think EDH allows players to express their autism more intensively than other formats. That can be good or bad. The best but also the worst games I ever played were commander. Ultimately, I want to keep bad experiences short so I settled for a faster format.
vintage being power crept on accident by the diversity hires at R&D is legit hilarious
 

Finster

Literate
Joined
Jul 19, 2024
Messages
9
Location
Valinor
Commander games take too long. It could be just my friend group, since they're all "slow" players. But I had to switch to a 60 card format, couldn't stand it anymore. Playing vintage now, really enjoy it. I don't want a round to last longer than 45 minutes tops. I rather play multiple rounds and switch decks inbetween.

I think EDH allows players to express their autism more intensively than other formats. That can be good or bad. The best but also the worst games I ever played were commander. Ultimately, I want to keep bad experiences short so I settled for a faster format.
vintage being power crept on accident by the diversity hires at R&D is legit hilarious
To be fair, is there a game which has successfully avoided creep over a span of 30 years? Is that even possible?
 

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